Just had this reply from my local Cllr re my complaint on my local GP surgeries use of 08444

I have further investigated this situation, but I have been advised similarly to my previous response.

BT Local Rate is 4p per minute (4.7p incl VAT) between 8.00am - 6.00pm and 1p per minute (1.8p incl VAT) between 6.00pm - 8.00am.  

0844 Local Rate numbers are exactly the same rate and if there is any difference the organisation that has this number would pay the difference plus £30 per quarter.

How should I proceed in reply?

Not quite sure. Quite clearly your local councillor doesn't live on this planet and prefers to believe the lies spouted by a well known telephone provider of these systems, because those nice people can't be wrong.

"BT local rate" has never been 4.7 pence per minute. I believe even the highest "local rate" is 3.95p/min and has been so for at least the last 10 years.

He means to say 6am - 6pm.


Quote:

0844 Local Rate numbers are exactly the same rate and if there is any difference the organisation that has this number would pay the difference plus £30 per quarter.

This sentence leaves me thinging there is no hope. What is he talking about?  ::)

JoeCurry wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2008 at 6:41pm:

Just had this reply from my local Cllr re my complaint on my local GP surgeries use of 08444 I have further investigated this situation, but I have been advised similarly to my previous response. BT Local Rate is 4p per minute (4.7p incl VAT) between 8.00am - 6.00pm and 1p per minute (1.8p incl VAT) between 6.00pm - 8.00am.   0844 Local Rate numbers are exactly the same rate and if there is any difference the organisation that has this number would pay the difference plus £30 per quarter. How should I proceed in reply?

Firstly I would suggest that you do not vote for this idiot when he or she next comes up for re-election.

Secondly this kind of 0844 number costs 5p per minute at all times and BT local rate on BT Option 1 to 01 and 02 local number is 3p per minute in the daytime and 5.5p for up to one hour (60 minute) in the evening and at the weekend.  Also BT Opton 3 includes 01 and 02 calls free of charge at all times but does not cover 0844 calls at all and these continue to accrue at 5p per minute or £3.00 per hour at all times.

Thirdly 0844 is not a Local Rate number or a National Rate number it is a Special Rate Services number (BT speak for low cost Premium Rate) which is why it costs extra.  Get your councillor to produce any phone bill that shows 0844 is Local Rate.  He won't be able to.

Fourthly I would direct you to encourage your councillor to follow the excellent example set by the former Mole Valley District Councillor for the Capel, Leigh and Newdigate ward when he had his council pass a resolution banning the use of anything other than 01 or 02 prefixed numbers for the provision of the council's own telephone services.  Your councillor should do this to prevent his own council falling victim to an NEG style doctor's surgery scam.  See P.5 and Motion 2/2005 of the minutes of the July 2005 full Council meeting at:-

www.molevalley.gov.uk/media/pdf/1/s/Council_Minutes_190705.pdf

Fifthly your local councillor is not responsible for NHS GP services so you are barking up the wrong tree by complaining to him, even though his reply has been ignorant and uninformed.  You need to complain to the local Primary Care Trust (PCT) responsible for this GP Surgery alerting them to the fact that the use of 0844 numbers breaches policy stated by the minister himself and is contrary to the principal that NHS Services should be free at the point of access.  You should also write to your MP asking him to campaign in Parliament to have these numbers banned for GP use and to get him to sign the Parliamentary Early Day Motion (EDM) deploring the use of these numbers by doctors.

See http://edmi.parliament.uk/edmi/EDMDetails.aspx?EDMID=34198&SESSION=891

JoeCurry wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2008 at 6:41pm:

Just had this reply from my local Cllr re my complaint on my local GP surgeries use of 08444 ... How should I proceed in reply?

Jo

We assume that this is indeed a revenue sharing number (almost certainly it will be). If so then the GP is in breach of the contract with the Primary Care Trust. This contract does not allow practices to receive any fee or remuneration from patients, even if through another person and regardless of how it is used.

The excess charge paid to support revenue sharing is a clear example of such a fee. Practices are even happy to admit that this is what is going on. They state that the money is used to provide "improved" services. That is not however permissible for a NHS "free at the point of need".

Your proper channel for complaint is through your local PCT. You should also raise the matter with your MP as the Department of Health is currently collecting evidence on this matter.

It would not be proper to discuss the full details in this public forum. If you wish to contact me via a "personal message", I would be happy to give you detailed advice on this matter.

David

Does anyone know which surgery was first to adopt 0844 and when?  Thanks.

jimbo2005 wrote on Feb 24^th, 2008 at 11:40pm:

Does anyone know which surgery was first to adopt 0844 and when?  Thanks.

I very much doubt anyone knows that aside from possibly someone at Network Europe Group (NEG) who are the main sellers of these numbers to doctors.

There was a lady from that firm who once upon a time enjoyed posting here but I think she must have been banned as she has now been silent for quite some time.

NGMsGhost wrote on Feb 24^th, 2008 at 11:43pm:

There was a lady from that firm who once upon a time enjoyed posting here but I think she must have been banned as she has now been silent for quite some time.

Or maybe she just decided she could never win us over to their way of thinking ;).

NGMsGhost wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2008 at 9:03pm:

Secondly this kind of 0844 number costs 5p per minute at all times and BT local rate on BT Option 1 to 01 and 02 local number is 3p per minute in the daytime and 5.5p for up to one hour (60 minute) in the evening and at the weekend.  Also BT Opton 3 includes 01 and 02 calls free of charge at all times but does not cover 0844 calls at all and these continue to accrue at 5p per minute or £3.00 per hour at all times.

Your a bit out of date there NGM.

BT local rate on BT Option 1 to 01 and 02 numbers is 3¼p per minute weekday daytimes and 4½p for up to an hour weekday evenings.  At the weekend, such calls (up to an hour) are now completely free.

On 1-4-08, the 4½p weekday evening rate will be abolished and 6p connection + 1½p per minute substituted.  

Heinz wrote on Feb 25^th, 2008 at 10:20am:

Your a bit out of date there NGM. BT local rate on BT Option 1 to 01 and 02 numbers is 3¼p per minute weekday daytimes and 4½p for up to an hour weekday evenings.  At the weekend, such calls (up to an hour) are now completely free. On 1-4-08, the 4½p weekday evening rate will be abolished and 6p connection + 1½p per minute substituted.

Even I as a very price telecoms conscious consumer cannnot keep up with BT's Machiavellian attempts to make their prices look cheap while shuvving up the cost of line rental (which I eventually have to pay even though I make no calls with BT as in the countryside I have to use a physical BT line and even if I go with another provider they usually raise their line rental when BT Retail puts up its price) and introducing numerous hidden connection charges that customers don't factor in.

BT getting rid of the 5.5p deal on weekday evenings to subsidise the free weekend calls (along with the increased line rental) is an outrage that the press ought to make a big fuss about.  Since when was the weekday evening part of the business week.  I had better warn my Mum so that she always uses 1899 in the weekday evening.  She still has a touching faith that using BT off peak is somehow better, even though she does use 1899 in the weekday daytime.

I wonder what happened to JoeCurry.  He/she does not seem to be reading any of our posts in response.

jgxenite wrote on Feb 25^th, 2008 at 1:41am:

Or maybe she just decided she could never win us over to their way of thinking ;).

Oh surely not.  She struck me as a lady who could never be knocked down and who would keep popping up with the latest company propaganda line no matter how many times we gainsayed her.

But if the company propaganda line is to withdraw from the forum entirely rather than to stir us up in to more action against NEG then as a company loyalist she will have to go along with that.

Quote.

BT local rate on BT Option 1 to 01 and 02 numbers is 3¼p per minute weekday daytimes and 4½p for up to an hour weekday evenings. At the weekend, such calls (up to an hour) are now completely free.

On 1-4-08, the 4½p weekday evening rate will be abolished and 6p connection + 1½p per minute substituted.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Am I right in thinking if you sign up for a 12 month contract the evening calls are free as well? (Up to an hour?)

sherbert wrote on Feb 25^th, 2008 at 11:38am:

Am I right in thinking if you sign up for a 12 month contract the evening calls are free as well? (Up to an hour?)

Post Office Homephone will give you free evening and weekend calls with no long term contractual commitment at all.

NGMsGhost wrote on Feb 25^th, 2008 at 11:51am:

sherbert wrote on Feb 25th, 2008 at 11:38am: Am I right in thinking if you sign up for a 12 month contract the evening calls are free as well? (Up to an hour?) Post Office Homephone will give you free evening and weekend calls with no long term contractual commitment at all.

Thanks [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

sherbert wrote on Feb 25^th, 2008 at 11:56am:

Thanks [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

And £9.25 cashback if you switch to them via www.quidco.com/post-office/  Not as good as the £50 or so I got when I moved to them though.

You can also get all UK calls for £3.49 per month with line rental of £10.50 per month at www.yourcalls.net

Of course if you are on a TalkTalk enabled exchange and need broadband you can't beat TalkTalk's deal for price but heaven help you if you need to make any serious use of TalkTalk's service such as downloading programs using the BBC IPlayer.

Heinz wrote on Feb 25^th, 2008 at 10:20am:

NGMsGhost wrote on Feb 22nd, 2008 at 9:03pm: Secondly this kind of 0844 number costs 5p per minute at all times and BT local rate on BT Option 1 to 01 and 02 local number is 3p per minute in the daytime and 5.5p for up to one hour (60 minute) in the evening and at the weekend.  Also BT Opton 3 includes 01 and 02 calls free of charge at all times but does not cover 0844 calls at all and these continue to accrue at 5p per minute or £3.00 per hour at all times. Your a bit out of date there NGM. BT local rate on BT Option 1 to 01 and 02 numbers is 3¼p per minute weekday daytimes and 4½p for up to an hour weekday evenings.  At the weekend, such calls (up to an hour) are now completely free. On 1-4-08, the 4½p weekday evening rate will be abolished and 6p connection + 1½p per minute substituted.

Also from 1st April daytime calls to 01/02/03 go up to 4ppm.

"The Daytime pence-per-minute rate for UK geographic calls will increase from 3.25  pence per minute to 4pence per minute. This change to the Daytime pence-per-minute rate will also apply to customers on the BT Broadband Talk Evening & Weekend Plan."

derrick wrote on Feb 25^th, 2008 at 12:52pm:

Also from 1st April daytime calls to 01/02/03 go up to 4ppm.

Remember BT like to refer to increases as "changes".  ::)

Also remember that all these charges are rounded up to the nearest whole minute, so 4p/min is the lowest rate if the call is exactly upto the nearest minute.

NGMsGhost wrote on Feb 25^th, 2008 at 12:44pm:

... you can't beat TalkTalk's deal ...

If I did not know better, I would suspect that an agent of Carphone Warehouse group had infiltrated this forum. It is Opal Telecom, another Carphone Warehouse group company, which apparently partners with NEG in providing most of the 0844 numbers used by GPs.

Trying to bring this back on-topic, what do these alternative providers charge for calls to 0844 numbers? Talk Talk used to offer free calls to other Talk Talk customers. If this also applies to Opal, is our Carphone Warehouse Group agent offering us a solution to the 0844 GP problem?

Personally I find Carphone Warehouse a slightly more distasteful company than BT, but that is largely based on prejudice against Blair’s buddies. Everyone is however entitled to their opinion, even if this involves public promotion of Carphone Warehouse.


P.S.
derrick wrote on Feb 25^th, 2008 at 12:52pm:

Also from 1st April daytime calls to 01/02/03 go up to 4ppm.

At the same time the cost of the all inclusive package also changes, creating a combined effect that makes this a far more attractive option. It is likely therefore that more people will opt for this (or alternatives from competitors) making the marginal cost of calling 08xx numbers even greater.

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Feb 25^th, 2008 at 1:23pm:

NGMsGhost wrote on Feb 25th, 2008 at 12:44pm: ... you can't beat TalkTalk's deal ... If I did not know better, I would suspect that an agent of Carphone Warehouse group had infiltrated this forum.

I think not.  My comment was as follows when taken in context.

"Of course if you are on a TalkTalk enabled exchange and need broadband you can't beat TalkTalk's deal for price but heaven help you if you need to make any serious use of TalkTalk's service such as downloading programs using the BBC IPlayer".


Quote:

It is Opal Telecom, another Carphone Warehouse group company, which apparently partners with NEG in providing most of the 0844 numbers used by GPs. Trying to bring this back on-topic, what do these alternative providers charge for calls to 0844 numbers? Talk Talk used to offer free calls to other Talk Talk customers. If this also applies to Opal, is our Carphone Warehouse Group agent offering us a solution to the 0844 GP problem?

No this deal only applies to calls to other TalkTalk retail customer numbers and does not apply to other corporate numbers run by Opal Telecom, TalkTalk or the CarPhoneWarehouse group.  Bizarrely they do make customer calls to their 0870 customer service number free of charge though, rather than using an 0800 or 0808 number as one would have expected.  I suspect they do this so you can't call them for free on a non TalkTalk landline.


Quote:

Personally I find Carphone Warehouse a slightly more distasteful company than BT, but that is largely based on prejudice against Blair’s buddies. Everyone is however entitled to their opinion, even if this involves public promotion of Carphone Warehouse

I find  them vastly more distasteful than BT and given TalkTalk's disgraceful poor quality broadband service I tend to see Mr Charles Dunstone as little more than a well spoken ex public school confidence trickster.  I also have direct experience from being with TalkTalk of disgraceful errors on both landline and a pay as you go mobile in terms of alarming errors in terms of billing for phantom calls that were either never dialled at all or dialled and not connected.  BT will by contrast behave if Ofcom sets rules and their current behaviour is only due to Ofcom's disgraceful removal of those rules.  Whereas CarPhoneWarehouse Group will normally ignore Ofcom's rules even when it does make them unless they receive large fines to encourage them to do so.


Quote:

At the same time the cost of the all inclusive package also changes, creating a combined effect that makes this a far more attractive option. It is likely therefore that more people will opt for this (or alternatives from competitors) making the marginal cost of calling 08xx numbers even greater.

The fact that BT is being allowed to fiddle things to make it look to BT customers as though it is not worth leaving them is an outrage.  In my view there should be different rules on phone exchanges so that where there is one or more LLU rivals BT can charge what it likes but where there is no LLU operator BT's line rental and call charges are controlled.  In addition Wholesale Line Rental needs to be radically reviewed so that the amount charged to rival operators is BT Wholesales's real cost in providing the phone line plus a small profit.  At the moment other phone operators are charged more or less the normal BT Retail price for Wholesale Line Rental.

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Feb 25^th, 2008 at 1:23pm:

derrick wrote on Feb 25th, 2008 at 12:52pm: Also from 1st April daytime calls to 01/02/03 go up to 4ppm. At the same time the cost of the all inclusive package also changes, creating a combined effect that makes this a far more attractive option. It is likely therefore that more people will opt for this (or alternatives from competitors) making the marginal cost of calling 08xx numbers even greater.

And of course the "free evening and weekend calls" promotion whereby customers could switch from Option 1 to Option 2 for a reduced price and get the afformentioned benefits should now become "free evening calls" because Option 1 now has inclusive weekend calls anyway. As usual, all part of a master plan where the next few moves have already been mapped out.

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Feb 25^th, 2008 at 1:23pm:

P.S. derrick wrote on Feb 25th, 2008 at 12:52pm: Also from 1st April daytime calls to 01/02/03 go up to 4ppm. At the same time the cost of the all inclusive package also changes, creating a combined effect that makes this a far more attractive option. It is likely therefore that more people will opt for this (or alternatives from competitors) making the marginal cost of calling 08xx numbers even greater.

I don't see how!
Savvy people, like most on here, will use the likes of 1899 etc to call 01/02/03 numbers during the day, therefore from 1st April a 1 minute call from BT during the day will cost;- 6p set up fee, +4p for 1 minute =10p for a one minute call, (2 minute call = 14p,3min call = 18p, etc).

A one minute call or above, i.e. any duration, using 1899 etc will cost 5p for the whole of the call regardless of duration! I know what I will be using!

The only way BTs option 3 will come into effect is if you need to make more than 120 Mon-Fri daytime calls to justify the £5.95 per month charge for that option, as against using 1899 etc, i.e. 120 calls @ 5p per call = £6.

But don't forget you will pay that monthly charge even if not making calls, i.e. you work most days, or you go on holiday.

Dave wrote on Feb 25^th, 2008 at 2:18pm:

And of course the "free evening and weekend calls" promotion whereby customers could switch from Option 1 to Option 2 for a reduced price and get the afformentioned benefits should now become "free evening calls" because Option 1 now has inclusive weekend calls anyway. As usual, all part of a master plan where the next few moves have already been mapped out.

BT's end plan is surely to use their longstanding false accounting over the alleged cost of maintaining their aged copper wires to claim they must charge a line rental of £45 per quarter but to include free 01/02 calls at all times to all their customers.  So no one will then be able to offer a competitive WLR product as price rises on the line rental for WLR by BT Wholsale will also force those suppliers to raise their line rental cost too.

Meanwhile BT will still be working on converting most UK business phone calls to 084/7 to ensure an ever increasing call revenue stream...............

The only hope is for Ms Viviane Reding from the EU to interven and to upset the Ofcom Applecart.

derrick wrote on Feb 25^th, 2008 at 2:31pm:

The only way BTs option 3 will come into effect is if you need to make more than 120 Mon-Fri daytime calls to justify the £5.95 per month charge for that option, as against using 1899 etc, i.e. 120 calls @ 5p per call = £6. But don't forget you will pay that monthly charge even if not making calls, i.e. you work most days, or you go on holiday.

Derrick you don't seem to factor in that in any multi person household then 120 calls to 01/02 numbers (a mere 4 calls per day) are easily made.  I very often get up to that number with just me what with Ansaphones and call centres that I hang up on due to SayNoTo0870 having an out of date number.

Is BT Option 3 really down to £5.95 per month?  www.yourcalls.net only charge £3.50 per month and their line rental is £1 per month less (so £3.45 less) but factor in Caller Display at £1.75 per month and one is only saving £1.70 per month against BT.  Enough to still incentivise you or I to change but not Mr and Mrs Jo Bloggs.

Unless you only make 30 or 40 daytime calls a monthe 1899 or 18185 is not now such a great deal.  Things were different when 18866 only charged 1p per call.

If you sign up for option 3 I believe the first three months is free then the £5.95 per month kicks in.

sherbert wrote on Feb 25^th, 2008 at 3:14pm:

If you sign up for option 3 I believe the first three months is free then the £5.95 per month kicks in.

Plus you have to sign an 18 month contract with BT?

It is utterly scandalous there isn't now a much lower line rental for those who only need broadband and don't want to make any phone calls with BT.

NGMsGhost wrote on Feb 25^th, 2008 at 3:26pm:

sherbert wrote on Feb 25th, 2008 at 3:14pm: If you sign up for option 3 I believe the first three months is free then the £5.95 per month kicks in. Plus you have to sign an 18 month contract with BT? It is utterly scandalous there isn't now a much lower line rental for those who only need broadband and don't want to make any phone calls with BT.

I know I am 'splitting hairs' but I think it is only 12 months. However I do agree with you.

sherbert wrote on Feb 25^th, 2008 at 3:48pm:

I know I am 'splitting hairs' but I think it is only 12 months. However I do agree with you.

Its an 18 months contract for their phone, broadband and V-Box tv recorder package though:-

See www.bundles.bt.com/Default.aspx?s_cid=con_FURL_valuebundles

My current broadband supplier (www.adsl24.co.uk) only has a 1 month contract.

BT,s Option 3 is free for the first three months if you sign up now,so over a year the average cost will be approx £4.47p a month.Which is the equilavent of approx 90 geographical calls a month on 1899/18185.

Plus the BT Option 3 offers 200 free texts from your landline,the call mobile bolt on free,and more family and friend numbers.

moneysavin wrote on Feb 26^th, 2008 at 1:32am:

BT,s Option 3 is free for the first three months if you sign up now,so over a year the average cost will be approx £4.47p a month.Which is the equilavent of approx 90 geographical calls a month on 1899/18185. Plus the BT Option 3 offers 200 free texts from your landline,the call mobile bolt on free,and more family and friend numbers.

Yes but the little - require a 12 months minimum contract and nothing will make me return to BT on that basis.

Also the regulator should be preventing BT from offering such attractive terms in my view when it is still the monopoly provider of phone infrastructure in a huge part of the UK.  How do the other smaller companies like YourCalls.net stay in business when BT is allowed to abuse its dominant market position in this way?

NGMsGhost wrote on Feb 25^th, 2008 at 2:43pm:

derrick wrote on Feb 25th, 2008 at 2:31pm: The only way BTs option 3 will come into effect is if you need to make more than 120 Mon-Fri daytime calls to justify the £5.95 per month charge for that option, as against using 1899 etc, i.e. 120 calls @ 5p per call = £6. But don't forget you will pay that monthly charge even if not making calls, i.e. you work most days, or you go on holiday. Derrick you don't seem to factor in that in any multi person household then 120 calls to 01/02 numbers (a mere 4 calls per day) are easily made.  I very often get up to that number with just me what with Ansaphones and call centres that I hang up on due to SayNoTo0870 having an out of date number. Is BT Option 3 really down to £5.95 per month?  www.yourcalls.net only charge £3.50 per month and their line rental is £1 per month less (so £3.45 less) but factor in Caller Display at £1.75 per month and one is only saving £1.70 per month against BT.  Enough to still incentivise you or I to change but not Mr and Mrs Jo Bloggs. Unless you only make 30 or 40 daytime calls a monthe 1899 or 18185 is not now such a great deal.  Things were different when 18866 only charged 1p per call.

It is actually 6 per day as I did say Mon-Fri, but I take your point, however most people will be out during the day so option 3 is just not worth it.

You could use one of the free(VOIPSTUNT), online trial calls to check the number is live or answered by a person before using landline to make the actual call. ( that is if you are serious about reducing call costs  ;) ).

BT option 3 will be £5.95 from 1st April.

It is 120 a month as I said in my post, you need to use a 5 day week, Mon-Fri, as you can get other calls free without monthly fees,( except the BT line rental).

derrick wrote on Feb 26^th, 2008 at 12:05pm:

It is 120 a month as I said in my post, you need to use a 5 day week, Mon-Fri, as you can get other calls free without monthly fees,( except the BT line rental).

It never seems like I make more than the minimum number required but when I examine my 1899 bills I find I am persistently paying more for 01/02 calls per month than I would with a fixed price package from www.yourcalls.net

It is all those cases where it is an answerphone or the wrong number etc that lead to this being so.

This is only since 1899 charged 5p per call.  When they charged 1p per call via 18866 it was of course hugely cheaper than an unlimited 01/02 calls package.

NGMsGhost wrote on Feb 26^th, 2008 at 12:26pm:

derrick wrote on Feb 26th, 2008 at 12:05pm: It is 120 a month as I said in my post, you need to use a 5 day week, Mon-Fri, as you can get other calls free without monthly fees,( except the BT line rental). It never seems like I make more than the minimum number required but when I examine my 1899 bills I find I am persistently paying more for 01/02 calls per month than I would with a fixed price package from www.yourcalls.net It is all those cases where it is an answerphone or the wrong number etc that lead to this being so. This is only since 1899 charged 5p per call.  When they charged 1p per call via 18866 it was of course hugely cheaper than an unlimited 01/02 calls package.

As I said in my last post;- "You could use one of the free(VOIPSTUNT), online trial calls to check the number is live or answered by a person before using landline to make the actual call. ( that is if you are serious about reducing call costs  ;) )."

Otherwise if it is the case that you "persistently paying more for 01/02 calls per month than I would with a fixed price package from www.yourcalls.net",  then go with that provider!

I am reluctant to go off-topic by addressing the subject of this thread, but I would wish to repeat my point by asking what is the premium that these alternative providers charge for calling 0844 numbers?

It may be said that the premium charged by BT is reducing to 1p per minute, but that is to ignore the effect of those who are at home during the day switching onto option 3, or some other alternative. The per-minute element of the cost of calling geographic numbers is increasing by nearly 25%, whilst the cost of option 3 is reducing.

The break even point is around 1 5-minute call per weekday, after which one may make as many other geographic calls (of up to one hour) as one wishes for no further charge. This makes it very attractive for those at home during the day, who represent a significant proportion of any GP’s most frequent patients. (The same point applies to other public services using 084 and 087 numbers.)

Notwithstanding valid complaints about BT and Ofcom, the issue here is about the abuse of revenue sharing by GPs. The Department of Health review which is underway may provide the chance for something to be achieved, if efforts can be focussed on this point.

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Feb 26^th, 2008 at 12:35pm:

what is the premium that these alternative providers charge for calling 0844 numbers?[/b].

Premium compared to what SCV?  Compared to the BT price for 0844 or compared to the cost of an 01/02 call?

We know doctor's 0844 numbers generally cost 5p per minute.  Presumably BT are raising the price of 01/02 calls to try and further blur the argument.  Especially by also getting rid of the cheap off peak deal in the weekday daytime.

But the fact of the matter is that 01/02 at any time inclusive calls packages now cost as little as £3.50 per month with www.yourcalls.net so it is against a zero cost for an 01/02 number that we are now making the comparison.

NGMsGhost wrote on Feb 26^th, 2008 at 12:46pm:

Premium compared to what SCV?

Sorry - by "premium", I meant over and above the cost of 01/02 calls. That is the point at issue in this thread.

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Feb 26^th, 2008 at 12:54pm:

NGMsGhost wrote on Feb 26th, 2008 at 12:46pm: Premium compared to what SCV? Sorry - by "premium", I meant over and above the cost of 01/02 calls. That is the point at issue in this thread.

Well clearly its 5p per minute versus zero p per minute for those on call plans that cover all 01/02 numbers such as BT Option 3.  I thought that was well established ground.

No landline phone provider tariff charges more than 5p per minute for calls to an 0844 number as far I am aware.  I think there is a maximum Ofcom charge limit for landlines of 5p per minute to 084 numbers and 10p per minute to 087 numbers.  Heaven knows which Ofcom General Condition it can be found in though.

Of course a new potential ripoff area is rounding up per minute and also the connection charge (which there seems to be no limit on the level of so no doubt 20p connection fees are on their way).

Magenta Systems has a lot of information on different telco tariffs if you are prepared to spend hours trawling through it all.

See www.magsys.co.uk/telecom/

NGMsGhost wrote on Feb 26^th, 2008 at 1:28pm:

Magenta Systems has a lot of information on different telco tariffs if you are prepared to spend hours trawling through it all.

I raised the question as the tariffs of various other providers were introduced to a thread about the premium for calling GPs on 0844. I have made the point about the relevant upcoming position with respect to BT, I was hoping that those who introduced discussion of other providers would be able to do the same.

Whilst the upcoming BT changes will, I believe, encourage many to adopt option 3, they may encourage others to take up alternatives. I had hoped that those who are experienced users of these providers, with a concern about use of g6 0844 numbers, might themselves know the relevant prices.

I have attempted to use the Magenta tables in the past, but they are not sufficiently detailed and have been seen to be inaccurate.

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Feb 26^th, 2008 at 4:13pm:

I had hoped that those who are experienced users of these providers, with a concern about use of g6 0844 numbers, might themselves know the relevant prices.

But surely you know that people like I and Derrick never call these numbers.  Neither my own doctor's surgery or that of my mother uses an 0844 number.

I am now a customer now of www.yourcalls.net but they do not publish their rate for calling 0844 numbers - not even to me as a customer. :o >:(

You are over complicating things SCV.  The basic point is that 0844 numbers to doctors are charged by pretty much all telecoms providers at 5p per minute plus a connection fee (usually 3p now in most cases) whereas on inclusive call packages there is no extra marginal cost for making the call (cost is zero)

Avoid the cunning ruse set by BT in increasing their 01/02 call prices to nearly 4p per minute while cutting 0845 to 2p per minute as this is clearly a deliberate rear guard action to protect the retention of 0845 numbers by governmental and other organisations.

~ Edited by Dave: Quote box tidied up

NGMsGhost wrote on Feb 26^th, 2008 at 4:48pm:

The basic point is that 0844 numbers to doctors are charged by pretty much all telecoms providers at 5p per minute plus a connection fee (usually 3p now in most cases)

The large majority would be charged more then 3p connection from a landline as BT and Talk Talk charge 6p connection,and Virgin Media now charge 7p i believe. ;)

NGMsGhost wrote on Feb 26^th, 2008 at 4:48pm:

The basic point is that 0844 numbers to doctors are charged by pretty much all telecoms providers at 5p per minute plus a connection fee (usually 3p now in most cases)

3+5 is less than 6+4. Another piece of NEG propaganda here, supported by the DH; suggesting that different operators have different unspecified rates leaves it in the balance as to whether calls to g6 0844 numbers cost more. I have been trying desparately to contend that there is no need to conduct extensive searches and surveys, because the need to support the revenue share means that g6 0844 numbers will always cost more.

I do not wish to avoid the upcoming BT price changes because I believe that they will cause the excess paid to call 0844, and perhaps also 0845, users in the public service to increase overall, as more callers move to inclusive packages, either from BT or other providers.

Those who have no interest in the cost of calling 0844 numbers are perhaps posting to the wrong thread.
I was hoping that the subject of this thread would provide an opportunity to co-ordinate more effective lobbying of those in a position to prevent misuse of these numbers, rather than a debate about the relative merits of telephone service providers and the personal preferences of forum members.

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Feb 26^th, 2008 at 5:50pm:

Those who have no interest in the cost of calling 0844 numbers are perhaps posting to the wrong thread. I was hoping that the subject of this thread would provide an opportunity to co-ordinate more effective lobbying of those in a position to prevent misuse of these numbers, rather than a debate about the relative merits of telephone service providers and the personal preferences of forum members.

SCV,

My dear friend this all sounds frighteningly intense and stressful after your recent health scare that I understand forced you to use NHS Direct for real.  Shouldn't you be laying off this kind of subject matter for a while because morally righteous though it undoubtedly is unfortunately it is not at all good for the soul because of the unscrupulous - we are up against who will stop at absolutely nothing to hang on to their 084/7 gains.  Also hasn't Ofcom's alleged short term postponement of 0870 price changes (suprise, surprise not now becoming long term) already told you that we are pushing water massively up hill here.  MPs ask questions about these numbers month in and month out but still Geoff Brighton and his cynical henchmen at Ofcom characterise this as the concern only of a small bunch of extremists.

Important New Labour friends in high places make vast amounts of money from this swindle and they will stop at absolutely nothing to leave it in place.  The only thing that will and can stop it is action from Madame Viviane Reding at the EU and I think it is in that direction we should really be turning our attentions.

The latest 084/7 price revisions are of course made precisely to divide and confuse, especially for instance making all 01/02 calls on BT Option 1 charged at a per minute rates in the weekday evening, thus weekening the case that 0844 is much more expensive at this time.

The angle we need to concentrate on is the exclusion of 084/7 from fixed price call packages that we will argue all the unemployed and retired on low incomes are generally inclined to take up because they are at home so much and thus make a lot of landline calls.

I must agree with NGMsGhost on this one. SCV, it seems like you're trying to justify 084x NGNs because they work out cheaper than geographicals on certain tariffs at certain times.

BTW, the call set up charge for 084x numbers on BT Together is 6p, the same as for geographical numbers. The 3p call set up charge applies for "non-discounted" customers such as those on LUS.

Dave wrote on Feb 26^th, 2008 at 7:01pm:

BTW, the call set up charge for 084x numbers on BT Together is 6p, the same as for geographical numbers. The 3p call set up charge applies for "non-discounted" customers such as those on LUS.

We pay more than double the line rental so as to pay double the connection charge.  Truly scandalous.

I think I must try to find out what connections fees www.yourcalls.net charge for 084/7 as nowhere on their website is this made clear.

Dave wrote on Feb 26^th, 2008 at 7:01pm:

I must agree with NGMsGhost on this one. SCV, it seems like you're trying to justify 084x NGNs because they work out cheaper than geographicals on certain tariffs at certain times.

I am most disappointed to encounter opposition, and unnecessarily personal comments, once again.

I have sought to show that calls to 0844 g6 numbers are invariably more expensive, to counter the arguments of NEG, but find the NEG position being supported. I have sought to lobby for defence of the unique principles of the NHS, which are being undermined by use of 0844 numbers, but a moderator concurs with the view that such comments are inappropriate in this forum.

If those who post here are required to accept that only action by the European Commission is likely to  affect the way in which we run our National Health Service and that the views of an officer of Ofcom will determine how the Department of Health behaves, then I am unable to contribute further, as I cannot subscribe to such nonsense.

This thread began with a new member asking for advice on how to complain about his doctor using a 0844 number.  It has been picked up by others, including myself, to be used to discuss matters that many would see as being quite unrelated.

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Feb 26^th, 2008 at 11:11pm:

If those who post here are required to accept that only action by the European Commission is likely to  affect the way in which we run our National Health Service and that the views of an officer of Ofcom will determine how the Department of Health behaves, then I am unable to contribute further, as I cannot subscribe to such nonsense. This thread began with a new member asking for advice on how to complain about his doctor using a 0844 number.  It has been picked up by others, including myself, to be used to discuss matters that many would see as being quite unrelated.

My Dear SCV,

I am sorry if showing proper concern for your state of health is taken as an unnecessary personal intrusion.  I only made the point because the normal course of action after any such health problem is to reduce one's level of stress and what could be more stressful than trying to worry if NEG could weadle their way around the self evident fact that 0844 is not a normal priced phone tariff.

With great respect you continue to play their game by worrying yourself excessively whether by cunning games with lower connection fees on the BT Light User Scheme (which almost no one makes any calls on) there may not be some rare instance in which 0844 is cheaper to call than an 01 or 02 number.

One needs to focus on the core issues applicable to 99% of those calling the numbers and which explains why 0844 numbers incur such wrath:-

(a) 0844 is excluded from 01/02/03 bundled call packages

(b) 0844 is violently more expensive to call from a BT Payphone and many mobile phone deals.  It is never cheaper to call on a mobile than 01/02

(c) There is a revenue share passed to the doctor's surgery to pay for their phone system at the point of use.

NEG are a bunch of twisting charlatans and they have mates in the telecoms industry who are assisting their current efforts to twist things.

You need to focus on the key issues which are overwhelmingly against these numbers rather than becoming obsessively worried about NEG's devious attempts to shoot us down.

What we need to do is to get the 90% of the doctors who have not gone to 0844 to speak out more against their unprincipled money grabbing colleagues who have and how they feel their actions are totally reprehensible.

Searching endless telecoms tariffs is not the way to go to try to win the argument.

SCV you are a must jovial chap when met in person so I am always perplexed by your forum persona which has always made me think you were some kind of supremely pedantic boffin.  How is this reconciled with the chap we met at the Information Tribunal who was guffawing his way with mirth through much of the hearing.  I didn't take you then to be a chap to lie awake at night worrying if there was just one tariff at one time of day for some narrow user group where due to recent BT slights of hand 0844 was cheaper than an 01/02 number.

Focus instead on things like TalkTalk's Broadband product which bundles free 01/02 calls too but excludes 0844 numbers.  Ditto BT's now very reasonable Option 3.

Looking at the evidence is old Ofcom speak for excuses to take no action.  It is not a real hunt for the truth.  I would have thought by now that you would surely have realised that.

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Feb 26^th, 2008 at 11:11pm:

I have sought to show that calls to 0844 g6 numbers are invariably more expensive, to counter the arguments of NEG, but find the NEG position being supported. I have sought to lobby for defence of the unique principles of the NHS, which are being undermined by use of 0844 numbers, but a moderator concurs with the view that such comments are inappropriate in this forum.

When I said I agree with NGM, I mean in as much as I don't think it's necessary to consider whether 0844 g6 calls are always more expensive than geographicals. I believe we have already established this.

I also pointed out the 3p connection charge for 0844s is infact 6p. This obviously introduced some unfounded doubt and that is what I was countering.