New member here, please forgive me if this question gets asked all the time

I run a small business that provides various services - including voiceovers for companies and broadcasters, plus consultancy work

I know that I am going to have to move home(=office) at least once and very possibly twice in the next 12 months

I have to order a load of stationery/artwork/webwork/publicity now, including thousands of very expensive CD's for mailout

I hope you can understand why I want to get some non-geo numbers - to redo the whole thing twice in 18 months would be cripplingly expensive and annoying for the clients.

And yet I hate it when companies give 0870 numbers to me - and I would like to behave ethically to my customers (my clients are 99.999% companies rather than members of the public btw so I guess they are not that bothered about the bill..but it's the principle of the thing)

With the recent changes I think that now 0870 is the lesser of the evils?

Any other ideas for numbers I can get now, that I won't have to change?

On the technical side: I have an BT ISDN2e line here, with a Gesko 115 pbx..off that I have 2 landlines, a fax and my ISDN codec (for doing voiceovers and interviews down the line)..and I can get more msn's from BT in the future as my company expands...and I guess maybe we'd like to go Voipy in the future..maybe

Any future-proof strategies spring to mind?

Thankyou for any advice

yesbut wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2008 at 12:01pm:

With the recent changes I think that now 0870 is the lesser of the evils?

You must have blinked when the "delay" was announced. 0870 numbers are as they were and I wouldn't bet on them staying as they are for a while yet.

ahhh..thanks Dave

so what do you reckon is the least-worst thing I can do to get a number now that won't have to change in the mid-term?

Get an 03 number. There are various providers of these, but if you have a VoIP telephony system, it will cost you less than £2 a month (with no inbound call charges) to have an 03 number. I'm not sure about costs to routing to a normal geographic - probably a few pence a minute (same cost as if you had an 0800 number I recon).

thanks...Voip is something I'm guessing we will get in to in the future..but we are a Mac based business that needs an ISDN line anyway so at the moment we do not have a Voip system

I'll look in to 03 numbers...have to say if I was given an 03 number by a company I'd be even more suspicious than of an 0870! purely because I have never heard of 03 and therefore would have that nagging doubt as to whether it is some new fangled 0898 rip off. At least with 0870 I know how much I am being ripped off by!

this is so annoying..I just wish the damn telcos could port an 0208 number around - further than three hundred yards

yesbut wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2008 at 4:20pm:

I'll look in to 03 numbers...have to say if I was given an 03 number by a company I'd be even more suspicious than of an 0870! purely because I have never heard of 03 and therefore would have that nagging doubt as to whether it is some new fangled 0898 rip off.

Send them the below link if they're worried.

http://www.saynoto0870.com/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.cgi?num=1189257846/105#105

yesbut wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2008 at 4:20pm:

[..] if I was given an 03 number by a company I'd be even more suspicious than of an 0870! purely because I have never heard of 03 [..]

Yes, shows just how well (NOT!) Ofcom managed to promote the new UK-wide 03 numbers...

This page has a nice introduction to 03 numbers, and that company also provide them at a relatively cheap price (however, I've never used them before so I'm not promoting them in any way :)).

very interesting, many thanks

Well I can see why 03 numbers are presumably less popular with small businesses than 0870

1. I would have to pay for them, every single month, forever
2. The public don't really know about them so the "value" to me is not much

whereas 0870 numbers are free to me...and my corporate customers won't mind calling them

I want to do the right thing, but it's a tricky decision

thanks again

oh and with an 03 number I also have to pay call charges if it gets routed to a landline

this is sadly a no-brainer for companies trying to keep costs down..no wonder 0870 is so popular (with companies that is)

Unfortunately that is the world we live in (well, here in the UK anyway!) Anything that is "free" or "local" to us is charged back to the company. The only way a company can break even is with a chargeable non-geographic.

That said, if you had gone with an 0870 number, and if Ofcom had gone ahead with its plans to bring the cost down, you would have had to pay for that as it would be identical to a geographic number.

The only way I could see that you could do this would be to have an 0845 number (effectively the cheapest to call from a landline, still expensive from a mobile) but then also advertise a geographic number on your website (with the warning that it is likely to change in future). That is until you migrate to VoIP or something similar - then you could switch to an 03 number with only rental charges.

yesbut wrote on Mar 24^th, 2008 at 1:35pm:

Well I can see why 03 numbers are presumably less popular with small businesses than 0870

The point here is that 03 is a neutral ground for the caller. Any additional cost is met by the receiver.

0870 users are all out to rip off the customer because they could have chosen a 0845 number which incur no incoming calls and in some cases allow revenue share. They deliberately went for the higher call rate.


Businesses will now incur extra charges above that of 01/02/03 numbers when calling 0845/0870 numbers. This could be put against the charges for a 03 number. So all this 0845/0870 defeats the point of today's telephone packages.


There's one final point and that's the fact that in a consumer driven market, competition is most effective at driving down prices when the consumer pays. For example, imagine if someone else would pay your supermarket bill. It wouldn't matter to you which goods you picked and the supermarket wouldn't need to offer deals or reduce the price of goods to make a sale. This is the case with 0845/0870. With 03, more demand will bring more providers into the market and drive down these charges.

yesbut wrote on Mar 24^th, 2008 at 1:35pm:

[...] my corporate customers won't mind calling [0870 numbers] [...]

This is the vicious cycle we need to break - it is a bad mindset to be in, and just continues to re-enforce their use by companies. Companies, like normal people, have bills to pay, and they will use 087x numbers to cover these. If you use an 01/02/03 number, then you do that little bit to reduce their bills, and may perhaps persuade them to think about switching to an alternative number that is cheaper to call.

As Dave said, it is all about competition. If you are seen to be not ripping off your customers (be they home or business customers), you are more likely to persuade them to remain with you. I know that I would much rather get my services from companies that don't rip me off (most of the time this is unavoidable, but I certainly try to avoid companies that use them exclusively).

yesbut can obviously get a geographic 01/02 voip number with www.sipgate.co.uk and then keep moving that to wherever he/she is now working.

I fail to see why anyone in this line of work would still be using ISDN today as it is very expensive slow and outdated.  I am sure the equipment cost of switching to a broadband and voip solution (using www.sipgate.co.uk numbers) could be saved in just the first few months in IDSN line rental and phone charges.

As to yesbut's attitude on 03 numbers the fact is you are receiving a service by having NGNs re-directed wherever you want.  Why do you expect your customers rather than you to pay for the extra convenience inherent in redirecting your numbers wherever you want whenever you want?  It seems only because some of them are ignorant they are being ripped off.

I suspect you are in fact just yet another plant from an 0870 number vendor trying to justify your continued selling of these numbers.  Someone really opposed to 0870 numbers would never consider using them for their own phone number. :o >:(

thanks for the sipgate link..I will definitely look in to it...I'll need to check whether it will work with my ISDN system

I have ISDN because I do voiceovers down the line...this is an established technology for us VO's, works well, and will be around for a good few years yet...and given that I have paid for it already I might as well use it for my telephony needs, no?

No, I am a real person, not a shill from the 0870 mafia

Yes, I really do hate 0870..told my agent off when she got one..but when I find myself in the position I outlined in post 1 (starting new enterprises, have big cd-duplication start-up costs, know I will be moving at least twice in next 18 months) then I can really see the attraction to small businesses..

Genuine enquiry from genuine person, genuinely trying to get along, genuinely trying to do the sensible thing

yesbut wrote on Mar 29^th, 2008 at 12:03pm:

I have ISDN because I do voiceovers down the line...this is an established technology for us VO's, works well, and will be around for a good few years yet...and given that I have paid for it already I might as well use it for my telephony needs, no?

An ISDN line is 64k or 128 if bonded to another one (which doubles the costs) but a broadband line is usually between 1000k and 7000k downstream (dependent on location) but around 448k upstream usually regardless of location.  Added to that ISDN lines have specific additional rental costs which could be deployed towards a decent broadband line.  It sounds to me like a classic case of someone who has been doing this for years not keeping up with technolgical change and this costing them more money than investing in new equipment that would work with broadband.  ISDN is yesterday's technology and is very over priced as well.

Quote:

Genuine enquiry from genuine person, genuinely trying to get along, genuinely trying to do the sensible thing

OK fair enough but I think it is your being wedded to ISDN and the old equipment that you use in conjunction with it that is really the issue here.

And no all broadband should not be judged by downmarket shysters like Talktalk who try to squeeze 15 customers in to a pint pot intended for one customer.  If you take your broadband from a decent provide like www.adsl24.co.uk, www.newnet.co.uk, www.idnet.co.uk or www.zen.co.uk then it is far faster, cheaper and more reliable than ISDN.

many thanks for helping me..I've got to out now so will do some research later on the numbers. Cheers, much appreciated.

To repeat: ISDN is still the best option for the very specialist needs of radio station remote interviews and Voiceover sessions. Please don't dismiss us by saying that you have the answer and we (the BBC, 1000 radio stations and 1000 voiceover studios) are just being silly and stuck in the mud. If you are truly interested the nearest IP can get to our specialist needs of a LIVE undelayed rock solid connection between audio codecs is via Source Connect or audiotx. But they are not there yet. When they are we will all joyfully move away from ISDN. If we followed your advice now we'd be out of a job, and you might notice a few live sports reports and interviews and radio discussions with Professor X in New York - would suddenly disappear.

And so, since I make enough from ISDN to cover the costs of ISDN..I might as well get my telephony needs from it at the same time, no?

Thanks again for your help.

yesbut wrote on Mar 29^th, 2008 at 1:05pm:

many thanks for helping me..I've got to out now so will do some research later on the numbers. Cheers, much appreciated. To repeat: ISDN is still the best option for the very specialist needs of radio station remote interviews and Voiceover sessions. Please don't dismiss us by saying that you have the answer and we (the BBC, 1000 radio stations and 1000 voiceover studios) are just being silly and stuck in the mud. If you are truly interested the nearest IP can get to our specialist needs of a LIVE undelayed rock solid connection between audio codecs is via Source Connect or audiotx. But they are not there yet. When they are we will all joyfully move away from ISDN. If we followed your advice now we'd be out of a job, and you might notice a few live sports reports and interviews and radio discussions with Professor X in New York - would suddenly disappear. And so, since I make enough from ISDN to cover the costs of ISDN..I might as well get my telephony needs from it at the same time, no? Thanks again for your help.

Please, don't dismiss what he is saying. ISDN is still the muts nuts for remote interview links and studio quality voice. I've dabbled in the radio industry, and its still as widely used as he says.

ISDN is from the dark ages, but it is a reliable safe option for steady data stream requirements.

It is about time other mediums were found, and more so as ISDN is being made obsolete.

Minardi wrote on Mar 29^th, 2008 at 2:55pm:

Please, don't dismiss what he is saying. ISDN is still the muts nuts for remote interview links and studio quality voice. I've dabbled in the radio industry, and its still as widely used as he says.

I think it is still widely used because these broadcasting outfits are rather slow to change.  I would have thought that with VPNs and business broadband products etc available it is still entirely possible to replace ISDN with an IP based solution that is higher quality, cheaper and more reliable.

A large number of news reporters from places like Iraq now use a video over IP webcam type link because even though the picture is not as good as a direct satellite feed it is better than the alternative of only having an audio link because the cost of a satellite link and a professional camera unit is too high to be affordable.

If IP is as unsuitable for voice as those in the broadcasting trade seem to make out then how come BT is switching over their entire UK telephone network to an IP based platform by 2011?

well, how many ways do we have to say this before you accept that possibly - on this one small area - you maybe under-informed?

ISDN is still used for live broadcast-quality duplex voice because nothing else works as well. No, it really doesn't. It would be nice if it did, but it doesn't, not yet.  Nobody is holding up the transfer due to laziness or slackness or a fit of pique!

When there's an alternative that works...we will all switch. If BT forces us all off ISDN before a replacement is ready then we are all stuffed.

Sheesh..we - the VO's - have been talking about this dilemma obsessively for three years now. Just accept that we have explored what's out there eh! This dark talk of ISDN being ready for the chop only except that we are slow to change, and me being an 0870 salesman..just makes you look a bit um paranoid. Again, I thank you for your help and respectfully ask for more of it if you have any other ideas for someone who has an ISDN telephony system for a very good reason - and wanting to get entrepreneurial by starting up enterprises whilst keeping costs down.

Many thanks

I believe the BBC has a somewhat purist attitude over these matters that does not generally tally with practical needs or real life.

For several years the BBC insisted on transmitting BBC Pariliament in only one quarter screen on Freeview and showing only two out of six interactive news feeds on BBC News 24 solely on purist grounds that it would degrade picture quality on other channels.  In the end the reality proved to be that the BBC had been postponing investing in newer transmission equipment that could make more efficient use of existing bandwidth.

I expect the clinging on to the use of ISDN with live audio feeds will prove to be the same kind of issue.

yes, yes of course you are right

how silly of us to cling to our purist ways, just because they work. Roll on the revolution where my practical needs in real life are determined by some ill informed dolt on an internet discussion board.

I have no idea what your beef is with the BBC - I am sure that your story is right in every particular but I doubt very much that they are single-handedly stopping some automagical ISDN solution emerging.  I can assure you that for me and the other voiceovers ISDN is the best solution in the marketplace right now.

And I'm more than a little peeved discussing this issue with someone who cannot learn anything from anyone else, it suggests that maybe your advice on any subject may not be all that good. Also, it is not the subject of this thread.

Sorry to be frank, you are obviously a well established member of this forum but you are making a bit of an ass of yourself by not accepting that anyone else might know anything about telephone lines in the UK.

So I'll try one more time:

I have an ISDN phone system...which does mean I can cheaply get lots of new 0208 numbers for my new businesses (MSN's I think they are called)..but I have to move house=office at least twice in the next few years..I'm scoping out what my best options are in non-geo and any more advice is gratefully received.

right I have calmed down now

sorry that I was a bit...er....forthright in my posts above. Was just a bit frustrating - anyway am happy to drop the subject!

thanks for the PM's offering support/advice - only just seen them (didn't get an email alert) and have just tried to reply but a message says this forum only allows you to send a PM (or even reply to one) when you have made 20 posts!

yesbut wrote on Mar 31^st, 2008 at 5:30pm:

but a message says this forum only allows you to send a PM (or even reply to one) when you have made 20 posts!

How about

This is my first forum post
This is my second forum post
This is my third forum post
............
This is my 20th forum post

As to the commetary quality issue I'm sorry if I have upset you but surely a high quality business broadband connection on a very low contention ratio must be able to deliver a service as good as a measly old 64k ISDN line?

I don't wish to sound unfriendly but the whole courts service has still yet to adopt email purely because nobody forces them to get their fingers out and resolve the issue.  The BBC also only uses 084/7 numbers because its damn hard to ever get a sensible answer about who is responsible for sanctioning this outrage.

great

well in answer to your question I do have a broadband connection as well, our industry has investigated the IP alternatives to ISDN for duplex broadcast quality voice and no there is nothing that works properly yet for our specialist needs. You never know - if you personally rip up all our ISDN lines you may propel the market to produce a solution a little bit quicker...just don't get caught selling the copper eh ;-)

yesbut wrote on Mar 31^st, 2008 at 6:00pm:

if you personally rip up all our ISDN lines you may propel the market to produce a solution a little bit quicker...just don't get caught selling the copper eh ;-)

Well it won't be me that does that will it?

It will be BT and their 21st Century Network Plans.  Surely ISDN won't be available once BT's 21st CN comes along will it?

NGMsGhost wrote on Mar 31^st, 2008 at 7:44pm:

Surely ISDN won't be available once BT's 21st CN comes along will it?

CN21 has already arrived. ISDN works over it. It works because telephony has consistent bandwidth requirements and BT can guarantee the QOS required over its network, and that is not possible over the public internet.

I can confirm that, for several reasons, ISDN is still the most suitable medium for ad-hoc connections for broadcast quality audio.

This has taken BT by surprise (again - just as it did with music landlines, and with Home Highway) and the ISDN2 and Business Highway migration (to ISDN2e) has missed its deadline.

interesting...thanks for filling us in on the details

Yes the BT migration from Home/Business Highway to ISDN2e was a pathetic, shameful, nigh-on criminally mismanaged shambles. The Voiceover community was baffled by the sheer scale of their incompetence on this issue!

(oh and thanks again for those who offered help on PM, am abroad at the moment but will be in touch when I get back - very grateful for kind offer)

yesbut wrote on Apr 4^th, 2008 at 2:38pm:

Yes the BT migration from Home/Business Highway to ISDN2e was a pathetic, shameful, nigh-on criminally mismanaged shambles. The Voiceover community was baffled by the sheer scale of their incompetence on this issue!

Don't get me started! The migration engineer was here only three hours ago, and the second directory number on one of the 'upgraded' lines no longer worked. And he couldn't fix it because he's Openreach, not BT - he didn't even know that it is a BT line. (Fixed just now - the missing number has been added to the MSN list). And that on top of them saying - over a year ago - that only DASS2 would be affected, presumably they forgot that Q.931 had been an option on the IMUX ISDN2.

yesbut wrote on Apr 4^th, 2008 at 2:38pm:

The Voiceover community was baffled by the sheer scale of their incompetence on this issue!

Oh surely they cannot have been surprised bearing in mind that this is BT we are talking about here.  ::)