I did a search and didn't see this, so I'm posting this note in the hope it's helpful.  :D

I've received the AGM docs from Liverpool Victoria, and they say they are moving from 0870 to 0845. Great, I thought, but that's not good enough (... rant rant, you know the thing, rant rant...).

Anyway, I've taken a little more trouble to read the doc and it says the following:

0845 costs per min:
 Daytime    3p
 Evening    1p
 Weekend  0.5p

So my ranting (to myself) was in vain. These sound like extremely good value. It doesn't say when Evening starts, but I would assume after 19:00.

Anyway, I hope others find this useful!

happy__bunny wrote on Apr 14^th, 2008 at 1:39pm:

I did a search and didn't see this, so I'm posting this note in the hope it's helpful.  :D I've received the AGM docs from Liverpool Victoria, and they say they are moving from 0870 to 0845. Great, I thought, but that's not good enough (... rant rant, you know the thing, rant rant...). Anyway, I've taken a little more trouble to read the doc and it says the following: 0845 costs per min:  Daytime    3p  Evening    1p  Weekend  0.5p So my ranting (to myself) was in vain. These sound like extremely good value. It doesn't say when Evening starts, but I would assume after 19:00. Anyway, I hope others find this useful!

Welcome to the SayNoTo0870 forums happy_bunny.

Unfortunately. that information from LV is wrong.

BT charges 6p connection plus 2p/minute daytime and 6p connection plus 0.5p/minute evenings (7 days a week).

Beware too that other telcos charge more.  Sky has just increased its prices and now charges 7p connection plus 6p/minute AT ALL TIMES.

happy__bunny, I think you have a misconception of how telephone charging happens. It is not up to the party being called (service provider), in this case LV to set the call price. It varies between telephone companies people make their calls with, eg BT, Virgin Media, TalkTalk etc.

So a call to LV on its 0845 number when with BT is the same as calling any other company's 0845 number. The price LV and any service provider gives should be correct, but that's not always the case. In this case, LV is out of date and thus is misleading its customers.

OK, thanks for the replies. Are you saying that the information in the document is definitely wrong?

The text on page 8 of their brochure clearly states: 'you will be charged at the local call charge instead of the national rate.' And immediately below this is the box with the prices I posted earlier. My understanding of these revenue sharing numbers was that the charge was 'up to' the specified maximum (5ppm for 0844, 4p for 0845 and 10p for 0870). Thus if a company such as LV wanted to use them in the way they should be used, then their 0.5ppm call charge should be honoured by the telco (as long, of course  :( as you ringing from a BT land line). I have certainly used 0845 numbers for dial up where it is only charged at 1ppm.

Unlike BT documentation that comes with more text in the footnotes than in the text itself there is no small print at all with this; just the numbers boldly stated!

I am always willing to be shot down in flames (a daily occurrence, I'm afraid!!).

These 0845 numbers are not "local call" rate as numerous ASA (Advertising Standards Authority) guidances and the comments of BT's new CEO designate, Mr Ian Livingston, have previously made clear.

The key point is that they are excluded from inclusive calling plans like BT Option 3 or TalkTalk Talk 3 under which all calls to 01/02/03 prefixed numbers up to 60 minutes are free of charge at any time.  Also they are excluded from bundled mobile phone minutes calling plans and charged at higher premium rates like 20p per minute or more outside bundled minutes.  Also they do not benefit from BT's Free Weekend Calls plan and instead are charged per minute for as long as the call continues.

Either you are a senior employee of Liverpool Victoria masquerading as a member of the public (quite likely) to try to challenge our criticism of their 0845 numbers or you have simply not bothered to read any of the sticky threads properly briefing you on all the 084/7 call price issues.

Try reading all the articles listed in this thread and I am sure you may then perhaps rather better understand the issues involved:-

www.saynoto0870.com/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.cgi?num=1117029043

happy__bunny wrote on Apr 15^th, 2008 at 8:16am:

Thus if a company such as LV wanted to use them in the way they should be used, then their 0.5ppm call charge should be honoured by the telco

The telco decides how much to charge, the company using the number decides what number to use.

BT changed its charges for 0845 calls on 1-8-2007.  LV is publishing out-of-date BT charging information.

Since 1/8/07, price comparisons between BT and 18185 have been:

0845------- Day---- Evening

BT -- 6p + 2p/min. -½p/min. (BT's Day/Evening prices apply weekends too)

Thanks for the links. I am certainly not a senior employee of LV (or indeed any employee, but as I purchase their savings plans I become an member of the Friendly Society, but I have no vested interest).

I was only stating what I read, and the implication of the comments in this thread is that they are indeed pulling the wool over my eyes. I will do some further investigation, and the links provided seem to be a good place to start.

I'm not trying to open a can of worms, but I suspect alas that the can was long since opened (wasn't it the evil Mrs T in the 80s that started all this complex phone charing nonsense).

Again, thanks for your replies!

happy__bunny wrote on Apr 15^th, 2008 at 9:48am:

I was only stating what I read, and the implication of the comments in this thread is that they are indeed pulling the wool over my eyes.

I don't know what age you are but surely by now you have learnt in life not to assume that everything marketing people tell you is actually true. ::)

0845 is not "local rate".  There has been no "local rate" for any call since BT abolished it on 1st July 2004 for all their BT Together customers.  0845 is a "special rate services" number and involves a revenue share being paid to the company you are calling.  That is why on BT Option 3 a 1 hour call to a number starting 01 or 02 or 03 in the weekday time costs nothing and one to an 0845 number costs £1.36!

http://www.cap.org.uk/cap/advice_online/ad_alerts/Advertising+0845+and+087+numbers.htm for more evidence.

See also the comments of the new CEO designate of BT, Mr Ian Livingston:-

http://business.scotsman.com/business/BT-calls-on-Ofcom-to.2642029.jp

I also still fail to see how you ever ended up at this website in the first place if you really think calls to 0845 numbers "seem very cheap". :o

If I were you I would make a complaint to the Advertising Standards Authority about Liverpool Victoria ignoring their rules regarding the description of 0845 call prices.  You can do this at:-

www.asa.org.uk/asa/how_to_complain/complaints_form/

See also www.cap.org.uk/cap/news_events/news/2005/Stop+the+call+confusion.htm for more confirmation by the ASA that 0845 must not be called "local rate".  This guidance is nearly three years old so how is Liverpool Victoria still getting it wrong. :o [smiley=thumbdown.gif]

No reply I see happy_bunny.

Does that mean you are now finally convinced 0845 calls are not "Local Rate" then. :-/

To be honest its not your fault.  Its the fault of Ofcom for doing absolutely nothing to disabuse the public of this widely perpetrated lie by companies using 0845 phone numbers.

happy__bunny wrote on Apr 15^th, 2008 at 8:16am:

The text on page 8 of their brochure clearly states: 'you will be charged at the local call charge instead of the national rate.' And immediately below this is the box with the prices I posted earlier. My understanding of these revenue sharing numbers was that the charge was 'up to' the specified maximum (5ppm for 0844, 4p for 0845 and 10p for 0870). Thus if a company such as LV wanted to use them in the way they should be used, then their 0.5ppm call charge should be honoured by the telco (as long, of course  :( as you ringing from a BT land line). I have certainly used 0845 numbers for dial up where it is only charged at 1ppm.

It doesn't work like that. As I said, the company (LV) does not dictate to the telco what the charge is. For 0845, call rates are the same for all 0845 numbers when calling from the same telephone operator.

For 0844 numbers from landlines, the rate varies by the next two or three digits, hence some dial-up numbers charge 1 or 0.5p per min at certain times. The highest 0844 band permitted is 5 pence per minute at all times.

Still no reply happy__bunny I see.

I would be tempted to believe you must after all be a Liverpool Victoria marketing person who finally decided to run for cover when you realised the game was up regarding trying to persuade us that your 0845 number was "really cheap" and doing us all a favour.

How can a number that is excluded from bundled minutes on mobile phones and can instead cost up to 40p per minute to call from some mobile phone providers be really, really cheap?  Also 0845 numbers do not qualify for unlimited call packages on landlines with unlimted free calls up to 60 minutes (eg BT Option 3).  So again how is that advantageous to us compared to LV using a number starting 01, 02 or 03 for its customers to call it?

If you were a genuine poster then I am sure you would have been prepared to continue to discuss this with us?