BT has this week increased the cost of calling 0845 and 0870 telephone numbers from its Public Payphones. Calls now cost 20 pence per minute, nearly double what they used to.

Call prices for BT Payphones are on the BT Price List here.

All calls cost a minimum of 40 pence and attract a 20 pence call setup fee. Additional call time can be purchased in 10 pence units.

Call rates are as follows:

Call type	Time in secs per 10p	Equivalent pence per min
Geographical/03	600	1.00
Most mobiles	9.5	63.16
0844	43 30*	13.95 20*
0845/0870	30	20.00
0871	12 6**	50.00 100**

* From 18 August, the cost of calls to 0844 numbers was increased to 20 pence per minute, bringing it into line with 0845 and 0870 calls.
** The cost of calls to 0871 numbers has increased to £1 per minute.

These phone boxes must be running at a huge loss. Does anyone use them these days, when nearly everyone has a mobile? I am surprised BT still bothers to keep them. The AA got rid of all theirs years ago. I can't remember when I last used one.

They are, as they generally have always been, running at a loss.

This is similar situation to that of Post Offices, next to which where they were often located back in the days of the GPO.

Indeed many of us no longer use either. It comes down to the classic argument about how you put a price on a public service. Some of us believe that this is a political decision that should be made in the interest of citizens, others are content for it to be left to be decided in the market by consumers.

sherbert wrote on Jun 28^th, 2008 at 9:07pm:

These phone boxes must be running at a huge loss. Does anyone use them these days, when nearly everyone has a mobile? I am surprised BT still bothers to keep them. The AA got rid of all theirs years ago. I can't remember when I last used one.

But what happens when your car breaks down and you have left your mobile phone at home or the battery has fun flat if there are no public payphone?

Not to mention the extortionate charges to 0800 on a mobile phone but not from a BT Payphone.

Why have these even more extortionate charges to 084/7 now been brought in from Payphones.  It suggests BT think that people are over a barrel about having to call them to keep their gas on etc and that they will get a lot of money by charging these crazy prices, whilst having a headline cheap price to ring your Aunty Vera or 01 or 02.

Time for an embarassing email to Mr Ian Livingston reference his comments to the Scotsman newspaper about BT bringing an end to the whole 084/7 ripoff me thinks.  Also what about NHS Direct that uses an 0845 number and which BT Global terminates the calls on so BT gets all of the extortionate charges from Payphone for calling this number!!!!!!!! :o >:( :'(

NGMsGhost wrote on Jun 30^th, 2008 at 12:12pm:

Why have these even more extortionate charges to 084/7 now been brought in from Payphones.  It suggests BT think that people are over a barrel about having to call them to keep their gas on etc and that they will get a lot of money by charging these crazy prices, whilst having a headline cheap price to ring your Aunty Vera or 01 or 02.

But we have already mentioned that Payphones are a loss maker. The reduction of geographical calls to 1 pence per minute is just a headline grabber. Most people will make a short call and pay 40 pence for it anyway.

But there is still a huge difference in the cost of a 30 minute call to your Aunty Vera and a 30 minute call to a customer service department or a government advice line (eg NHS Direct) that is a very real difference.  Why do you wrongly assume that all calls do not exceed the minimum call charge.  That is garbage.  The fact is that calls to customer service centres on 084/7 often take 10 to 30 minutes to complete (especially due to call queuing).

Why would BT charge so much more for 0845 and 0870 if these calls did not in fact constitute a huge part of the revenue it expects to earn from Payphone calls?  Also how is it acceptable for NHS Direct to use a number that costs £6.20 to call for a 30 minute call instead of only 50p for a normal priced phone call from a Payphone for 30 minutes to 01/02.

Your saying it is only headline grabbing is to accept that you think it is acceptable for marketing men to behave in this deceitful way.  Especially when the whole gigantic 084/7 con is reliant on people wrongly thinking 084/7 numbers are normal priced local and national rate phone calls.

If most people didn't pay any more than the minimum payphone call charge then why would BT want to charge so much more for calling 084/7 then Dave? ;) ::)

Also my other point is why is BT's percentage markup vs geographic phone numbers for 084/7 numbers in the weekday daytime from Payphones so much higher than their percentage markup compared to calling 084/7 vs 01/02 calls in the weekday daytime for people on their Weekend Calls Plan or Evening and Weekend Calls Plans (BT Option 1 and 2 as was although altered in terms of free calls).

NGMsGhost wrote on Jun 30^th, 2008 at 12:39pm:

But there is still a huge difference in the cost of a 30 minute call to your Aunty Vera and a 30 minute call to a customer service department or a government advice line (eg NHS Direct) that is a very real difference. […]

Indeed there is. I've already suggested why that might be. That is to encourage people to use Payphones by way of lowering the apparent charge to "1 pence per minute".


NGMsGhost wrote on Jun 30^th, 2008 at 12:39pm:

[…] Why do you wrongly assume that all calls do not exceed the minimum call charge.  That is garbage. The fact is that calls to customer service centres on 084/7 often take 10 to 30 minutes to complete (especially due to call queuing).

If you bother to read my post, you will see I was referring soley to geographical calls made from Payphones. It is they who will generally not go over 20 minutes.

So my point has nothing to do with "customer service centres" on 084/7 numbers. I must pull you up on one further point and that is that I never said all calls will not exceed the minimum charge, whether geographical or otherwise.


NGMsGhost wrote on Jun 30^th, 2008 at 12:39pm:

Why would BT charge so much more for 0845 and 0870 if these calls did not in fact constitute a huge part of the revenue it expects to earn from Payphone calls? […]

Perhaps it is geographical calls which cost "less" rather than 0845 and 0870 which cost "more". This would seem to be the case, bearing in mind we have already said that Payphones are a loss maker anyway.


NGMsGhost wrote on Jun 30^th, 2008 at 12:39pm:

[…] Also how is it acceptable for NHS Direct to use a number that costs £6.20 to call for a 30 minute call instead of only 50p for a normal priced phone call from a Payphone for 30 minutes to 01/02.

I do not believe it is acceptable. It is, however, a matter for NHS Direct to address.


NGMsGhost wrote on Jun 30^th, 2008 at 12:39pm:

Your saying it is only headline grabbing is to accept that you think it is acceptable for marketing men to behave in this deceitful way.  Especially when the whole gigantic 084/7 con is reliant on people wrongly thinking 084/7 numbers are normal priced local and national rate phone calls.

Again, you are obviously not reading in full my postings before jumping in and replying. Indeed, I believe that your response is rushed as the first word in this quote should be "you're" and not "your".

In response to this point, I did not say it was acceptable, I merely suggested that that is why it is as it is.


NGMsGhost wrote on Jun 30^th, 2008 at 12:39pm:

If most people didn't pay any more than the minimum payphone call charge then why would BT want to charge so much more for calling 084/7 then Dave? ;) ::)

As less and less people use Payphones, the associated charges to those who do will have to go up. An example of this is the 40 pence minimum charge which used to be 10 pence.

As it's been mentioned, BT make a loss on maintaining public payphones but they are obliged to keep them going by Ofcom.

Now I agree, calls to 084x/087x are really expensive from payphones but there has to be a happy medium somewhere!

BT have to try and recoup the loss from payphones from somewhere else so if they didn't try and reclaim it from payphones that could possibly mean a rise in landline line rental or landline call charges.

Indeed, BT may already do this to some degree for all we know.

If BT didn't have to repair/replace telephone boxes and even the payphones themselves due to certain age groups who get their kicks out of destroying payphone boxes then I suppose BT wouldn't make a loss on them or at very least wouldn't make that much of a loss on them.

bbb_uk wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2008 at 5:46pm:

As it's been mentioned, BT make a loss on maintaining public payphones but they are obliged to keep them going by Ofcom. Now I agree, calls to 084x/087x are really expensive from payphones but there has to be a happy medium somewhere! BT have to try and recoup the loss from payphones from somewhere else so if they didn't try and reclaim it from payphones that could possibly mean a rise in landline line rental or landline call charges. Indeed, BT may already do this to some degree for all we know. If BT didn't have to repair/replace telephone boxes and even the payphones themselves due to certain age groups who get their kicks out of destroying payphone boxes then I suppose BT wouldn't make a loss on them or at very least wouldn't make that much of a loss on them.

Why is it that BT are the only telecoms company that is obliged to operate phone boxes? Why aren't others compelled to have some? I bet there is a simple answer but I at the moment don't get it. :)

bbb_uk wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2008 at 5:46pm:

As it's been mentioned, BT make a loss on maintaining public payphones but they are obliged to keep them going by Ofcom. Now I agree, calls to 084x/087x are really expensive from payphones but there has to be a happy medium somewhere!.

bbb,

You are clearly rambling on a topic you clearly know nothing about.  So if you know nothing about it I would stay quiet if I was you.  Just as you unaccountably also remained quiet in respect of the latest two Ofcom consultations along with not bothering to publicise those consultations to the forum's members.

The simple point is that on a landline BT have a maximum differential of 6p per minute between an 01/02/03 call and an 0870 call and 2p per minute compared to an 0845 call.  Therefore there is no excuse for a price differential between 01/02/03 call costs and 084/7 costs on a payphone that is more than that 6p per minute for 0870 or 2p per minute (as things currently stand) for 0845.  Any further gap does not reflect the real extra costs of calling 084/7 from a Payphone and therefore there is no justification for it.  End of story.

BT have to provide payphones as a quid pro quo for their total monopoly in about 4,000 of the UK's 5,500 phone exchanges where there is no LLU.  They also do it as a quid pro quo for the disgraceful BT line rental charge that makes them the most expensive utillity (compared to gas, water or electricity) by miles.  Please spare me the sob stories about poor old BT not being able to accept any erosion of it monopolistic profits of nearly £1 billlion per annum.

As of 18 August, calls to 0844 numbers cost 20 pence per minute from BT Payphones.

Dave wrote on Aug 26^th, 2008 at 1:43am:

As of 18 August, calls to 0844 numbers cost 20 pence per minute from BT Payphones.

And what do calls to 0845, 0870 and 0871 now cost?

Why on earth would BT do this given the already major storm over 0844 doctor surgery use. As usual the right hand does not seem to be talking to the left at BT.

NGMsGhost wrote on Aug 26^th, 2008 at 1:55am:

And what do calls to 0845, 0870 and 0871 now cost?

0844/0845/0870 are 20p/min
0871 are 50p/min

Dave wrote on Aug 26^th, 2008 at 2:13am:

0871 are 50p/min

In god's name why when the maximum revenue share is only 7 or 8p per minute.  BT seem happy to live with making 1p per minute on a geographic call subject to payment of the minimum connection charge.

It seems to me that Ian Livingston is not honouring his previous promises.

Dave wrote on Aug 26^th, 2008 at 2:13am:

NGMsGhost wrote on Aug 26th, 2008 at 1:55am: And what do calls to 0845, 0870 and 0871 now cost? 0844/0845/0870 are 20p/min 0871 are 50p/min

OfcoN state that BT has SMP and as such some things BT still require the ok from OfcoN (although most things probably don't now)!  So surely OfcoN approval was sought before raising the cost to such an extent.  Regardless of what some people think, i believe it's a bit reasonable for BT to have a slighly higher costs for calls from payphones compared to landline but in this case they are grossly over-pricing the NGNs.

Thing is we all know that OfcoN don't give a damn about what us consumers pay or think.

bbb_uk wrote on Aug 26^th, 2008 at 7:13pm:

0844/0845/0870 are 20p/min 0871 are 50p/min OfcoN state that BT has SMP and as such some things BT still require the ok from OfcoN (although most things probably don't now)!  So surely OfcoN approval was sought before raising the cost to such an extent.  Regardless of what some people think, i believe it's a bit reasonable for BT to have a slighly higher costs for calls from payphones compared to landline but in this case they are grossly over-pricing the NGNs. Thing is we all know that OfcoN don't give a damn about what us consumers pay or think.

You obviously missed the Ofcom consultation proposing that BT be allowed to set a range of variable payphone box charges to see how it affected demand in different areas.

I know someone who responded to that consulation. ;)

I see that one consultation was actually for a non uniform tariff for geographic charging but the start of the slippery slope and all that kind of thing........

See www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/pcb/

I believe this whole ripoff 084/7 payphone pricing strategy is reliant on the monstrous charges levied for 084/7 and them not being the same as 01/02/03 not being shown in the phone box.  All the marketing there goes on about how cheap it is to make a long national rate phone call (while conveniently forgetting to mention that 084/7 are not charged at these rates) >:(

I see only there were only four responses to that consultation and BT was one of them.  At least one member of this forum made the effort though.  Futile and completely ignored by OfCoN though it of course undoubtedly was. :'(

Also what is the betting that an FOI to Ofcom would reveal the percentage of 084/7 calls made on a payphone to be far higher than from a domestic landline number.  Think tourists and people looking for a room for the night or needing to speak to the gas company etc, etc, etc.

I have to say, that despite the title of this thread, for which I am responsible, I think that the geographical calls at 1p/min are a loss leader. I would be interested to know how many geographical calls from phone boxes last as long as 20 minutes or even 5 or 10 minutes.

The point is, and it is a point we make with mobile providers, the differential between geographical and 0845 and 0870, which is relatively speaking a lot lower from a landline.

It is also a fact that BT Payphones are a loss maker anyway, so in order to break even, how much would calls have to cost? 30p, 50p, £1 or £5 per minute?? What is the ball-park figure which cover their cost?

Dave wrote on Aug 26^th, 2008 at 8:02pm:

It is also a fact that BT Payphones are a loss maker anyway, so in order to break even, how much would calls have to cost? 30p, 50p, £1 or £5 per minute?? What is the ball-park figure which cover their cost?

Pretty irrelevant as none of them can fully cover their costs now unless they are turned in to say email and internet terminals and then only in a busy area.

The point of them though is that sometimes you go out and your mobile phone battery goes flat or you drop it in ditch by accident on walk in the wet welsh hills.  What then if there are no payphones to bail you out in such a circumstance?  Flag down a lift as a hitch-hiker from a driver who turns out to be a maniacal psychopath perhaps. :o

Its pretty obvious that most of the calls from these boxes must actually be to 084/7 call centres.  If that wasn't the case then why on earth do you think BT would want to make these 084/7 call charges so high. ;) ::)

This is BT we're talking about.  Don't feel sorry for them.  They make huge and outrageous profits elsewhere on things like their near monopoly of phone line rental in rural areas either as BT Retail or through a WLR operator who pays BT Wholesale more or less the same price.  They can afford to be made to prop up a few loss making phone boxes as a public service.  Its just that Ofcom's daft rules say it must not do this as it might put other competitor payphone box operators (who no longer exist by and large) out of business.

NGMsGhost wrote on Aug 26^th, 2008 at 7:39pm:

You obviously missed the Ofcom consultation proposing that BT be allowed to set a range of variable payphone box charges to see how it affected demand in different areas.

I actually remember that and thought that was just a temporary thing whilst they switched between billing systems or something.  I, of course, could be wrong about that.

I think BT also claimed that very few calls are to NGNs but then like you said why would BT want to charge so much for calls to NGNs then?  I wouldn't be surprised if BT did some creative accounting/stats and provided OfcoN this instead.

But then again, it wouldn't have made a difference as OfcoN are useless and if I had the money and legal experience I'd challenge this

The cost of calls to 0871 numbers is now £1 per minute from BT Payphones. I have updated the table in the original post.

Dave wrote on Nov 9^th, 2008 at 12:29am:

The cost of calls to 0871 numbers is now £1 per minute from BT Payphones. I have updated the table in the original post.

Truly disgraceful.  This can only be because a lot of calls to 0871 numbers are actually made from Public Payphones.  For instance foreign tourists trying to make or alter travel arrangements who foolishly think using a public payphone to call a UK company will be cheaper than using their foreign mobile at equally exorbitant roaming rates for UK calls.

One would hope that the Office of Fair Trading would launch an investigation in to why a 4900% premium over ordinary geographic phone numbers is required but what hope of action by the OFT when the OFT uses 0845 phone numbers both for its own direct calls from the public and for calls to Consumer Direct............................ :o

Surely it is time some of us started writing to Mr Ian Livingston, BT's new CEO, to remind of the comments he made about 084/7 numbers and their discredited and ripoff nature to The Scotsman newspaper. >:( >:( >:(

"Pretty irrelevant as none of them can fully cover their costs now unless they are turned in to say email and internet terminals and then only in a busy area."

bt did have a contract with Marconi to provide internet capable payphones
but later cancelled the contract with marconi replaced them with normal payphones as they were making a loss and then proceded to remove certain loss leading payphones ( one near us was removed recently)

here is a page from 2005 when the deal was first announced:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/2745060/BT-and-Marconi-in-e-payphone-deal.html

and when marconi failed to get the contract renewed:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/05/03/marconi_bt/

and another intresting post:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/migrationtemp/2813941/Locals-see-red-over-phone-boxes.html

this post was taken in bolton ( which is where i live!!)
bt are adding these new phoneboxes which are supplied by JC Decaux in the uk and Clear Channel NI in northen ireland. ( the new payphone is called Connect 6)

"BT has teamed up with JC Decaux, the French poster company, to roll out an estimated 1,600 of the new kiosks around Britain. If advertisers like them, they could bring in £4m a year in shared revenues."

maybe the extra advertising will help reduce the loss made by rarely used payphones?

According to The BT Price List, from 1 August BT Payphones continue to charge 0870 calls at almost 20 pence per minute, whereas 01/02/03 calls are about 1 pence per minute.

Current call charges from BT Payphones are 20 pence per minute for 0844, 0845 and 0870 numbers.

Yet 0843 numbers are apparently 13.95 pence per minute. Perhaps this is a typo or an old rate. :-?

Dave wrote on Dec 12^th, 2010 at 3:06pm:

Current call charges from BT Payphones are 20 pence per minute for 0844, 0845 and 0870 numbers. Yet 0843 numbers are apparently 13.95 pence per minute. Perhaps this is a typo or an old rate. :-?

The fact that the number "43" is entered in the box for the number of seconds per 10p alongside "0843" could suggest that this is a typo.

May I suggest a bit of research, with a high probability that the total cost of the call will be refunded if the Price List is found to be wrong. Perhaps TFL would like to send someone out to do the work!