I've started a new thread to mention those NHS services which are now using 03xx numbers. My thinking is that this is purely a thread for positive news, so no bad reports of rip-off doctors here.

---

Source: Malvern Gazette

http://www.malverngazette.co.uk/news/local/3742604.New_out_of_hours_medical_service_launched/

New out-of-hours medical service launched
11:10am Sunday 12th October 2008
By Tarik Al Rasheed

<<
AN enhanced ‘Out of Hours’ medical service has been launched in Malvern this week.

Independent healthcare provider Take Care Now (TCN) has now taken over provision of the service, which allows patients to access medical support for issues that cannot wait until their GP surgery is open.

The Out of Hours service operates between 6.30pm-8am Monday to Friday, and 24 hours at weekends and anyone requiring the service should call the new Out of Hours phone number 0300 123 3211.

[…]

>>

More information on the provider of this service, Take Care Now or TCN on its website.

Source: Evesham Journal

http://www.eveshamjournal.co.uk/news/3735522.New_out_of_hours_service_for_Evesham_residents/

New out of hours service for Evesham residents

4:55pm Tuesday 7th October 2008
By Pat Smith

<<
RESIDENTS living in the Vale of Evesham have a new out of hours medical service.

People needing medical attention after surgery closing times will need to ring the new number - 0300 123 3211 - at a cost of less than 1p per minute.

[…]

>>

I started this thread for good news. I've found another out of hours urgent GP service which has recently gone to a 0300 number. That's two in one day!

---

Source: Evening Chronicle

http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/lifestyle/your-health/2008/10/13/mum-backs-out-of-hours-care-number-72703-22013238/

Mum backs out-of-hours care number
Oct 13 2008 by Helen Rae, Evening Chronicle

<<
A mother is supporting a health campaign for out-of-hours treatment, after a GP helped her daughter. Health Reporter HELEN RAE finds out more

A TYNESIDE mum is backing a new health campaign which aims to help families in the region access the right treatment out-of-hours, after her two-year-old daughter was struck down with gastroenteritis during the night.

The campaign is being run by out-of-hours GP provider Northern Doctors Urgent Care (NDUC), in partnership with NHS North of Tyne.

It’s aim is to ensure families living in Newcastle, North Tyneside and Northumberland, know how to access the correct treatment should they fall ill when their GP surgery is closed.

An NHS telephone number – 0300 123 4343 – for patients to access out-of-hours treatment with a doctor is being launched.

The line will be charged at a reduced rate for local calls, numbers using evening and weekend lower rate packages, and calls from mobile phones.

[…]

>>

Another article on Worcestershire's new out of hours GP service from Worcester News:

http://www.worcesternews.co.uk/news/3739654.Out_of_hours_GPs____patients_service_has_improved/

West Sussex uses 0300 130 1313 (introduced in March):

http://www.westsussexpct.nhs.uk/news-and-events/pr-march-2008/need-medical-help-when-the-surgery-is-closed/

kasg wrote on Oct 14^th, 2008 at 9:45pm:

West Sussex uses 0300 130 1313 (introduced in March): http://www.westsussexpct.nhs.uk/news-and-events/pr-march-2008/need-medical-help-when-the-surgery-is-closed/

So how can the PCT's ethically or rationally be bringing in centralised 0300 out of hours numbers themselves whilst allowing individual doctors surgeries in their areas to go on using 0844 numbers for calls during normal surgery opening hours. :-? :-/ ::)

An interesting piece of marketing for 03 is found on the BT website - here


Quote:

What are 03 numbers and why are they being introduced? A new UK-wide 03 number range is being introduced as an alternative to numbers beginning with 08 (e.g. 0870 and 0845). The introduction of the new 03 numbers will enable organisations such as charities, banks and the NHS to offer consumers a single telephone number for the whole of the UK, at the same cost as calls to geographic numbers (e.g. those beginning 01 or 02). How much will it cost to make a call to and from an 03 number? Calls to 03 numbers will cost the same as calls to landline numbers, and will be included as part of any inclusive call minutes or discount schemes for geographic calls.

Can anyone suggest what NHS single number for the whole of the UK they may be thinking of?

Charities and banks are not conspicuous amongst early adopters of 03 numbers. There is no reference to BT's own success with Police services.

Source: Surrey and Borders Partnership NHS Foundation Trust

http://www.sabp.nhs.uk/news/mental-health-crisis-helpline-covers-whole-of-surrey-and-north-east-hampshire/

Mental Health Crisis Helpline Covers Whole of Surrey and North East Hampshire
Last modified 01-04-2009 15:50

A new Telephone Crisis Helpline that people with mental health problems anywhere in Surrey and North East Hampshire can call in times of crisis or distress opens on April 1.

The new number is 0300 456 83 42

The service is funded by NHS Surrey and provided by Surrey and Borders Partnership NHS Foundation Trust. It is staffed by care professionals who are experienced in working with people with mental health issues.

The Crisis Helpline is available out of hours from 5.00pm to 9.00am Monday to Friday with 24-hour cover at weekends including Bank Holidays. If the lines are busy, the call will be diverted to an answer-phone which will enable the caller to leave their contact details for someone to call back within half an hour.

[…]

Source: Sefton PCT

http://www.seftonpct.nhs.uk/news_and_publications/press_releases/Press_Releases_2009/New_number_to_quit.asp

New number to quit

Smokers in Sefton can call a new telephone number for help and advice to kick the habit.

The number – 0300 100 1000 – is easy to remember and is exclusively for Sefton residents.

[…]

NHS Leicestershire County & Rutland - Be Healthy Be Heard membership line 0300 555 5345

Coventry NHS Healthcare and Walk-in Centre 0300 200 0060

Nottinghamshire Healthcare NHS Trust Children and Young People’s Mental Health Services (CAMHS) 0300 300 0022

A full list of health services known of on 03 numbers is in the Hall of Fame.

Greater Manchester NHS Clinical Assessment & Treatment Service - run by Care UK for the NHS, use an 0333 number.

(Prominent position on their home page.)

Sefton PCT has re-launched the 0300 100 1000 helpline as "Healthy Sefton" having previously introduced it earlier this year as a stop-smoking service:

http://www.seftonpct.nhs.uk/news_and_publications/press_releases/Press_Releases_2009/Healthy_phone_line_launched.asp

NHS Careers has switched to 0345 60 60 655.

http://www.nhsemployers.org/RecruitmentAndRetention/NHS-Careers/Pages/NHSCareers-new-number.aspx

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/8433484.stm

NHS stress hotline launched across England

<<
An NHS helpline to help people struggling with stress has been launched by the government.

The service is available across England, following concerns about the mounting problems people will face in coming months because of the economy.

Trained health advisers will staff the hotline - available on 0300 123 2000 - from 0800 to 2200 each day.

They will offer advice on debt, housing and employment, but can also put people in touch with mental health services.

It is estimated that a quarter of people with mental health problems experience debt, but a third of those do not ask for any help.

Average household debt is now almost £10,000, excluding mortgages, and recent surveys suggest up to half the population is worried about money because of the recession.

Care services minister Phil Hope said: "After the festive season many of us take a long hard look at our finances.

"Tightening our belts and getting out of debt always features high on the list of new year resolutions.

"But debt can have a serious impact on a person's mental wellbeing, causing stress, depression and even suicidal thoughts."

Jacqui Jedrzejewski, the mental health lead at NHS Direct, said the advisers were there to "offer sympathetic, relevant support and advice".

She added: "We know the credit crunch hits people in many different ways and job insecurity, redundancy, debt and money problems can all cause feelings of distress and helplessness."

The launch of the stress service, after a six-month pilot, comes after the government set out a new mental health strategy earlier this month.

The 10-year plan involved a series of measures, including the appointment of mental health co-ordinators to work with Job Centres.

Dedicated advice lines are also to be set up for small businesses to give their staff direct access to occupational health professionals to help them stay in work, while government-backed work placements are to be piloted to help people return to work.

Calls to 03 numbers cost no more than a national rate call to an 01 or 02 number and must count towards any inclusive minutes, according to Ofcom.

These rules apply to calls from any type of line including mobiles, landlines or payphones.
>>

It seems the penny has dropped at last, the Government does understand what 0300 is for and how it should be properly used.     So why don't they now make the 0345 4647 number available for NHS Direct?      And also give proper directions to the rest of the NHS about use of 0300 or at least banning premium rate numbers such as 0845 and 0844?

loddon wrote on Dec 30^th, 2009 at 8:21am:

It seems the penny has dropped at last, the Government does understand what 0300 is for and how it should be properly used.     So why don't they now make the 0345 4647 number available for NHS Direct?      And also give proper directions to the rest of the NHS about use of 0300 or at least banning premium rate numbers such as 0845 and 0844?

If you have become deluded into believing that a Government can think with one mind and find yourself needing to pose questions to which there is no simple answer, then you may be suffering from stress. Those who suffer from money problems as a result of having to pay a premium rate to call their GP are indeed said to be liable to be caused feelings of distress and helplessness. There have been concerns that thinking about the economy will cause people problems in the coming months. It may therefore be of some comfort to you to know that the health advisers who staff a specialist helpline, which is available at no greater cost than that of a local or national call, have been trained to do their job.

I have to confess that the apparent necessity to apply the word "trained" to any job title damages my mental wellbeing. I cannot get my head around the idea that personnel could be deployed to undertake a task without any attempt to verify or provide them with the minimum necessary competence. I am very worried whenever this is presented as having been an option that was not taken up.

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Dec 30^th, 2009 at 9:16am:

If you have become deluded into believing that a Government can think with one mind and find yourself needing to pose questions to which there is no simple answer, then you may be suffering from stress. .

You must be deluded yourself SCV if you think that I think that "the Government can think with one mind".    I do believe that it should be possible for a clear policy to be established and for clear directions or Directives to be issued and implemented.   This Government seems to be incapable of that as we see in their hopelessly incompetent handling of the question of banning 084/7 numbers within the NHS.

I find nothing wrong with posing simple questions.    There may not be simple answers sometimes but that doesn't mean the questions should not be asked.    In this case I happen to think the answer to making use of 0345 4647 is simple, both technically and logically.   Unfortunately we are inflicted with obstinate, obstructive and obdurate government and administration.

I agree with your wittily presented points about  GP's numbers and use of trained operatives in advice centres.

loddon wrote on Dec 30^th, 2009 at 9:59am:

You must be deluded yourself SCV

I admit to being mildy troubled, but it was not me who suggested that because one part of the NHS Direct NHS Trust understands the benefits of 03xx numbers, this understanding could be applied throughout that organisation or indeed extend to the Department of Health and the whole of the government.

The unanswerable question posed was "Why not ...". There is indeed no good reason why proper directions could not have been issued and why 0345 4647 could not be adopted in parallel with 0845 4647. These points have been presented to the government and we have not heard any meaningful answer.

The suggested answer is that this behaviour reflects the character of the government and the civil service. The suggested characteristics are however universally found in all administrations, so this does not help us address the particular issues.

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Dec 30^th, 2009 at 10:44am:

The suggested characteristics are however universally found in all administrations, so this does not help us address the particular issues.

Then why have various bodies that were misled in to using 0845 a number of years ago such as Surrey County Council or various Police forces or the DVLA or even Companies House (largely only providing business to business services) now switched to using 0345 but NHS Direct has not?

This suggest to me that such characteristics of obstinacy and unwillingness to change are not universally found in all organisations and that some organisations are prepared to admit to their error and apply the appropriate corrective action.

At the back of all this confusion about the cost of phone calls are major failures of leadership by Ofcom, the Cabinet's Contact Council and the OFT, all of whom have been consistently lacking in leadership or clarity on this important consumer issue for which they variously carry primary policy making responsibility.  With no clear lead from those bodies everything else that has gone on has been or more less utterly inevitable.

NGMsGhost wrote on Dec 30^th, 2009 at 10:59am:

Then why have various bodies that were misled in to using 0845 a number of years ago such as Surrey County Council or various Police forces or the DVLA or even Companies House (largely only providing business to business services) now switched to using 0345 but NHS Direct has not?

The question posed is about why the NHS Direct NHS Trust uses 03xx numbers for some services and 0845 for others.


NGMsGhost wrote on Dec 30^th, 2009 at 10:59am:

... This suggest to me that such characteristics of obstinacy and unwillingness to change are not universally found in all organisations and that some organisations are prepared to admit to their error and apply the appropriate corrective action.

... This suggests to me that whilst these characteristics are found in all administrations, and that this should never be taken as proof that change is impossible and unattainable. That is why we campaign.

Surely, it cannot be seriously suggested that senior personnel in the DVLA underwent a character transformation that turned them from obstinate villains into repentant heroes around the time that revenue sharing was withdrawn from 0870 numbers!


NGMsGhost wrote on Dec 30^th, 2009 at 10:59am:

At the back of all this confusion about the cost of phone calls are major failures of leadership by Ofcom, the Cabinet's Contact Council and the OFT, all of whom have been consistently lacking in leadership or clarity on this important consumer issue for which they variously carry primary policy making responsibility.  With no clear lead from those bodies everything else that has gone on has been or more less utterly inevitable.

I am not sure what role the OFT has in setting the policies of public bodies. Its role is surely limited to the matter of price declarations, which are only relevant in situations where use of premium rate numbers is otherwise acceptable.

In providing the opportunity to use 03xx numbers with the accompanying regulations and in issuing guidance about the revenue sharing characteristics of 084x numbers, Ofcom and the Contact Council have respectively each made positive contributions. They have however failed to show the type of leadership that would have been necessary to gain swift and universal adoption of 03xx numbers in place of 084x, wherever the benefits of a non-geographic number necessitate such a change. Each claims, with some justification, that the limits of their role, and their capacity to to lead and direct, preclude the type of action that we would hope for and have demanded. In both cases however, it is acknowledged that there is more that can, and will, be done.

---

As we look forward and wish each other a Happy New Year, let us hope for the modest steady progress that is being made not to be halted by a new government showing a renewed commitment to consumerism. The consumerist model delivers public services that offer value for money to those who pay for them. My idea of a public service, most notably the NHS, is of one that is funded exclusively by taxation. This means that in delivering services one may not show any regard whatsoever for how the taxes are raised and cannot levy charges for access to services.

Consumerism makes use of revenue sharing telephone numbers acceptable, and even desirable as they strengthen the financial relationship between the provider and the consumer. Differential costs help in creating a market that offers choice. Consumerism cannot exist where the taxpayer is totally remote from the beneficiary of a public service.

The present government seems to be totally committed to the consumerist model, seeking to address the issue of 084x numbers by reference to the costs incurred by consumers of particular NHS services and, as a matter of even greater concern, the interests of particular consumer groups with reference to NHS car parking charges. Despite this, some modest progress has been made in recent years, although calls from the official opposition to embed the true fundamental principles of the NHS in statute have been disregarded.

In the spirit of posing silly questions, I ask: can we hope for a new parliament that will produce a government more keen to transfer a cost burden from the public service user onto the deficit or the taxpayer?

I see so-called "efficiency" savings as simply a way of reducing public expenditure without making obvious cuts in services, so I want to address the real money involved. The costs incurred in foregoing the financial benefits of revenue share on 084x numbers are modest, as is the higher cost that some service users would face by calling 03xx numbers rather than 0845 or 0844. People have however got very excited about much more modest amounts when these have been proposed as possible savings in public expenditure.

Contributors to this forum have been rightly swift to point out the failings of the present governmen., Looking at the political landscape from a purely saynoto0870 perspective it is difficult to see what possible general election outcome would be most favourable for the objectives that we share.

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Dec 30^th, 2009 at 6:47pm:

Looking at the political landscape from a purely saynoto0870 perspective it is difficult to see what possible general election outcome would be most favourable for the objectives that we share.

What utter rubbish.

It is clear that from the point of view of the fulfilment of the ambitions espoused by anti 084/7 number campaigners that the Liberal Democrats have shown by far the greatest possible commitment at national level to addressing the 084/7 call costs issues.

However as governments do a very great many things and the Liberal Democrats have no realistic hope of election as a government in this election one cannot cast one's vote at the next election solely on the basis of the policies of the parties on the use or misuse of 084/7, 070 or 09 phone numbers.

Source: Stoke-on-Trent PCT

http://www.stoke.nhs.uk/news/show/126

<<

New Numbers for Health Centres and Services in Stoke-on-Trent
[ 18 Dec 2009 ]

Eighteen health centres and health services across Stoke-on-Trent are changing over to new 0300 numbers which are only charged at a local rate.

NHS Stoke on Trent will implement the new numbers from the 1st January 2010 and will decommission the existing phone lines over the month.

[…]

>>


To read the article in full, follow the link which also has a list of the new numbers.

Dave wrote on Dec 30^th, 2009 at 7:33pm:

Source: Stoke-on-Trent PCT Eighteen health centres and health services across Stoke-on-Trent are changing over to new 0300 numbers which are only charged at a local rate.

Meanwhile NHS Direct continues to scam tens of thousands of callers a week by pigheadedly sticking to its 0845 number. >:( >:( >:(

NGMsGhost wrote on Dec 30^th, 2009 at 7:02pm:

It is clear that from the point of view of the fulfilment of the ambitions espoused by anti 084/7 number campaigners that the Liberal Democrats have shown by far the greatest possible commitment at national level to addressing the 084/7 call costs issues. However as governments do a very great many things and the Liberal Democrats have no realistic hope of election as a government in this election one cannot cast one's vote at the next election solely on the basis of the policies of the parties on the use or misuse of 084/7, 070 or 09 phone numbers.

It must be remembered that in our system a General Election is to elect a parliament, not a government. Very many members are returned with no prospect of sitting in government (notably from Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, but also many from England in the current parliament).

My reference to a general election "outcome" did not preclude the possibility that the resultant parliament could perhaps lead to a place in government for members of absolutely any party. The "Vince for Chancellor" movement could be influential in providing a share in power to the Lib Dems. I have to say that in my dealings with parliamentarians I have not detected any particularly strong commitment on this issue from Lib Dem members, although one may have expected this from their general bearing on policy matters. I have found support to be fairly evenly distributed amongst the back benches of the parties. I find the three major front bench teams to be generally inseparable on this issue.

The point about voting is, of course, well made. One hopes that voters will set their mark against the candidate they believe is most fit to represent the interests of their constituency. Party affiliation and the way in which they have discharged their duties previously (in the few cases where this will apply) will be high up on the list of issues to be considered.

I was not intending to solicit canvassing, but inviting speculation on how particular possible outcomes may favour our cause.

Dave wrote on Dec 30^th, 2009 at 7:33pm:

Source: Stoke-on-Trent PCT http://www.stoke.nhs.uk/news/show/126 << New Numbers for Health Centres and Services in Stoke-on-Trent [ 18 Dec 2009 ] Eighteen health centres and health services across Stoke-on-Trent are changing over to new 0300 numbers which are only charged at a local rate. NHS Stoke on Trent will implement the new numbers from the 1st January 2010 and will decommission the existing phone lines over the month. […] >> To read the article in full, follow the link which also has a list of the new numbers.

These 0300 numbers don't replace 0844 numbers, but geographical ones. They are for hospitals rather than contracted GPs, as shown in the main NHS website:
http://www.nhs.uk/servicedirectories/pages/Trust.aspx?id=5PJ&v=0&pid=5PJ

Of all the GPs providing services for Stoke-on-Trent PCT, there are two that use 0844 numbers:

1. Dr V K Maheepathi & Partners
Dunrobin Street Medical Centre, Dunrobin Street, Longton, Stoke-on-Trent, ST3 4LL
Tel: 0844 576 9032

2. Longton Hall Surgery
186 Longton Hall Road, Blurton, Stoke-on-Trent, ST3 2EJ
Tel: 0844 815 1982
Fax: 0844 815 1983
Web: [url=www.longton-hall-surgery.nhs.uk[/url]]www.longton-hall-surgery.nhs.uk[/url]

Source: NHS Warwickshire

https://www.warwickshire.nhs.uk/NewsRoom/PressReleases/ViewPressRelease.aspx?PRID=98


Quote:

Diarrhoea hotline opens to assist Warwickshire residents Tuesday, January 05, 2010 NHS Warwickshire is opening a Diarrhoea hotline, 0300 130 3050, to help people with symptoms of diarrhoea and vomiting cope at home.  The hotline, which will be operating 24 hours a day will give self-care health advice to Warwickshire adults concerned about sickness and diarrhoea. […]

GP practice to open its doors to 6,000 Southampton patients - (Tuesday 12 January 2010)


Quote:

Patients ... should ring 0300 123 6066

:)


but ... Adelaide GP Surgery


Quote:

... after 8pm or on a bank holiday please call ... 0844 811 3060

:(

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Jan 18^th, 2010 at 1:10pm:

GP practice to open its doors to 6,000 Southampton patients - (Tuesday 12 January 2010) Quote: Patients ... should ring 0300 123 6066 :) but ... Adelaide GP Surgery [quote]... after 8pm or on a bank holiday please call ... 0844 811 3060

:([/quote]So NEG's utopian vision of "competition" between numbering within the NHS is realized.

The council and police in Durham have 0300 numbers and now the out of hours GP number is also a 0300 number. This came into existing on 1 October 2009:

http://www.countydurham.nhs.uk/patientinformation.html


Quote:

A new service for patients requiring urgent health care has been launched in County Durham and Darlington.  Patients can ring a special number – 0300 1110111 – and they will be passed to the service they need.  It is not for emergencies – if an adult or child has a serious illness or injury, people should still dial 999 and ask for an ambulance.  A leaflet has been produced with further information about the service and is available below.

Source: Uxbridge Gazette

http://www.uxbridgegazette.co.uk/west-london-news/local-uxbridge-news/2010/08/06/new-number-for-gp-out-of-hours-services-launched-113046-27010488/


Quote:

New number for GP out of hours services launched Aug 6 2010 By Dan Coombs A NEW out of hours GP service has launched across Hillingdon. If patients phone their own GP surgery out of hours and find it closed, they will be put straight through to the service, or given the number to call. The number is 0300 130 3018 and the initiative has been launched by NHS Hillingdon in partnership with care providers Harmoni. …

News release from the PCT:

http://www.hillingdon.nhs.uk/ViewNewsPage.html?NewsId=206

Dave wrote on Aug 15^th, 2010 at 11:35pm:

News release from the PCT: http://www.hillingdon.nhs.uk/ViewNewsPage.html?NewsId=206

From that link;-
"The new number will be charged at a local rate. "

Still don't get it do they?

Dave wrote on Aug 15^th, 2010 at 11:35pm:

Quote: New number for GP out of hours services launched ... The number is 0300 130 3018 and the initiative has been launched by NHS Hillingdon in partnership with care providers Harmoni.

Each PCT commissions GP out of hours services.

In some cases the NHS Direct NHS Trust is commissioned to provide the telephone triage service, with the main service provider (e.g. Harmoni) only picking up on cases that are referred for further action. Historically, NHS Direct has always used 0845 numbers (separate numbers for each service, not 0845 4647). It is now using 03 when new numbers are being assigned, but shows no intention of changing those which exist.

In other cases the main provider delivers the whole service. Harmoni has a policy of using 03 numbers. Hillingdon switched its approach to cut out NHS Direct, which is why the number changed.

---

derrick wrote on Aug 16^th, 2010 at 11:06am:

Quote: The new number will be charged at a local rate. Still don't get it do they?

Even those who do get it may find that "local rate" is the easiest way to make the point in a media release. A call to a 03 number does cost the same as a call to a local geographic number, so the statement is not actually false. Although a call to a remote geographic number would generally also cost the same, very many people appear to remain unaware of this. If the right point is being put across to those who read the piece, it is not necessary for every user of 03 numbers to have to engage in an extensive exercise of public education about telephone charges when issuing a media release.

It is when 0845 calls are described as being charged at "local rate" that a serious deception is being practiced. The rate charged for calling a 0845 number is different in almost every case, and it is commonly greater than that for calling a local number. I believe that this is the issue on which campaigning energies need to be focused.

This issue is very complex; I suspect that none of us totally gets it.

PCTs are to be wholly abolished by 2013 and GPs assuming the commissioning responsibilities they formerly held.

As the doctors surgeries are still using the 0844 numbers for their benefit, I can not see them, the GPs, moving away from them, especially as the are going to be in sole charge.

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Aug 16^th, 2010 at 2:40pm:

derrick wrote on Aug 16th, 2010 at 11:06am: Quote: The new number will be charged at a local rate. Still don't get it do they? Even those who do get it may find that "local rate" is the easiest way to make the point in a media release. A call to a 03 number does cost the same as a call to a local geographic number, so the statement is not actually false. Although a call to a remote geographic number would generally also cost the same, very many people appear to remain unaware of this. If the right point is being put across to those who read the piece, it is not necessary for every user of 03 numbers to have to engage in an extensive exercise of public education about telephone charges when issuing a media release.

My initial reaction was similar to derrick's but on reflection I have to agree with SCV here. "Local rate" probably means more than "geographic rate" to most people.

kasg wrote on Aug 16^th, 2010 at 2:51pm:

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Aug 16th, 2010 at 2:40pm: derrick wrote on Aug 16th, 2010 at 11:06am: Quote: The new number will be charged at a local rate. Still don't get it do they? Even those who do get it may find that "local rate" is the easiest way to make the point in a media release. A call to a 03 number does cost the same as a call to a local geographic number, so the statement is not actually false. Although a call to a remote geographic number would generally also cost the same, very many people appear to remain unaware of this. If the right point is being put across to those who read the piece, it is not necessary for every user of 03 numbers to have to engage in an extensive exercise of public education about telephone charges when issuing a media release. My initial reaction was similar to derrick's but on reflection I have to agree with SCV here. "Local rate" probably means more than "geographic rate" to most people.

But "local rate" has no meaning, and all the authorities,(ASA, TS, Ofcom), tell you NOT to use the term, albeit re 0845 numbers, but it is still misleading under the "Consumer Protection Act 1987 (partIII) Misleading price indications.".

derrick wrote on Aug 17^th, 2010 at 10:43am:

But "local rate" has no meaning, and all the authorities,(ASA, TS, Ofcom), tell you NOT to use the term, albeit re 0845 numbers, but it is still misleading under the "Consumer Protection Act 1987 (partIII) Misleading price indications.".

Yes, I know, so does SCV, but that wasn't the point being made. Douglas Adams's phrase "mostly harmless" comes to mind.

If we are to get pedantic on a "harmless", if potentially technically invalid, use of a commonly understood phrase to make a fair point about what we should regard as a victory for our campaigning efforts, then let us take care to ensure that we really "get it".

I understand the situation to be as follows:

• The ASA and some Trading Standards bodies have ruled against certain specific uses of the term "local rate" to describe the cost of calling particular 0845 numbers. I am not aware of any such ruling being made with regard to geographic or 03 numbers.
  
  
• I am not aware of any General Condition imposed by Ofcom to proscribe use of the term "local rate" by telephone service providers. They are required to adhere to the provisions of The National Telephone Numbering Plan, which includes the term "BT’s Standard Local Call Retail Price" in the definition of 0845. Ofcom has no powers over how users describe the cost of calling their numbers, except for those who are providers of "Premium Rate Services" as defined in the Communications Act.
  
  
• The current BT "Tariff Guide for Residential Customers" includes 22 references to rates for making "local" calls. Sometimes these are associated with the word "rate" and in most cases the rate is the same as that for making "national" calls. The term "local NTS" remains to describe the rate for calling 0845 numbers, as does "national NTS" for 0870, even though the actual rates for "local NTS" do not necessarily any longer bear any particular relationship to those for calling "local" geographic numbers. Many find this document hard to understand, however I doubt that one would be likely to succeed in bringing a legal action to show that this document was littered with "misleading price indications".
  
  
• Most people would give a meaning to the term "local rate". This would be the rate for making a call to a local number on a landline. In this sense the meaning is fairly applied to the cost of calling a 03 number. (The term "local" is defined in the BT document on page number 33 (35 in Acrobat reader.)
  
  
• One could take the trouble to explain that "local rate" is only currently distinct from "national rate", in the case of residential customers, for certain obsolescent BT and Talk Talk tariffs (plus any others that I am not aware of). One could encourage general use of the term "UK rate", as proposed by Ofcom, however one must admit that it has not been adopted by providers nor come into general use, and therefore stands as being generally meaningless. I do not believe that Hillingdon PCT is failing in its duty to the patients it serves, nor breaking the law, by not engaging on these points.
  

I am happy to accept that I do not fully "get it" and will be pleased to read any corrections or extensions to the points I make above, so as to improve my understanding.


I do wince at little at use of the term "local rate". I must however admit that I have nothing better to propose at present for those who are seeking to explain in simple terms that calls to a new 03 number used for a local service will be cheaper for many than the previous 0845 number, because they will be no more expensive than calling a local number.

The problem with 03 could arise if "local" calls are again offered at rates lower than those for "national" calls. The current Ofcom regulation only requires the cost of calling 03 numbers to be no greater than the latter. This was addressed by Talk Talk for the short period during which distinct terms applied to local calls. The present regulations would require similar exceptional measures to be taken should other cases arise. (I would suggest that campaigners pressing for such action focus on the example of the Metropolitan Police, clearly a provider of a local service on a 03 number, as I did with Talk Talk.) It is possible that the distinction between "local" and "national" rates could return to residential tariffs (it remains in place for business tariffs). I do not however see this as being sufficiently likely as to require briefing Hillingdon PCT and Harmoni on the impropriety of using 03 numbers or describing them as being charged at a local rate.

One should perhaps demand that users describe the cost of calling a 03 number as being no greater than "national" rate. Although technically more correct, this would actually cause many to believe the cost to be greater than that for calling a 0845 number, which was once the same as a local call.

This is a very complex issue. Again, if anyone recognises the extent to which I do not fully "get it" and can help me further, I would be delighted to be brought up to speed.


I am happy to engage in what I see as pedantry, as this is often necessary to deal with spurious points put forward by our opponents.

I would however rather that we applied our campaigning energies to matters of substance, e.g. the continuing use of 0845 numbers for Out of Hours GP services by NHS Direct. (See this press article and the detail at the foot of this page.)

sherbert wrote on Aug 16^th, 2010 at 2:50pm:

PCTs are to be wholly abolished by 2013 and GPs assuming the commissioning responsibilities they formerly held.

The various White Paper proposals are out to consultation, which will not conclude until 11 October. There are many who doubt that something quite so radical would be achievable, either practically or politically.

For those who are following this issue, the views of Hamish Meldrum, Chairman of the BMA, as presented to the BBC, may be of interest. I personally detect some severe differences of view between Dr Meldrum and the BMA GPC, so we must take care in leaping to the assumption that all doctors think the same way.


The consultation on GP Commissioning Consortia and the NHS Commissioning Board is found here.

In theory, the Commissioning Board would have responsibility for ensuring that contracts drawn up for the provision of Out of Hours GP service (by agencies engaged by the GP consortia) included provisions to require adherence to NHS standards. This would include the requirement not to use a telephone number that was more expensive to call than a geographic number. The Board would also be responsible for ensuring that the general provisions of the GMS contract, which applies to GPs, retained the similar provision that has recently been introduced.

The big question is over who would have the responsibility for ensuring that the contractual provisions were enforced. It is difficult to see how a consortium would be ready to threaten legal action against its own members. In the absence of this ultimate sanction, it is hard to see how enforcement could be effective. The libertarian concept behind the reforms suggests that dissatisfied patients should simply move to another practice. In the case of an Out of Hours provider, a patient would need to move to a practice in another consortium. As relatively few would regard the cost of telephone calls to be sufficiently important to warrant so significant a step, the principles of the NHS are sacrificed for the sake of pragmatic consumerism.

This is however but a tiny issue in the context of the threats which our NHS faces, and that in the context of a threat to the whole of our Welfare State.

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Aug 17^th, 2010 at 3:11pm:

Most people would give a meaning to the term "local rate". This would be the rate for making a call to a local number on a landline. In this sense the meaning is fairly applied to the cost of calling a 03 number. (The term "local" is defined in the BT document on page number 33 (35 in Acrobat reader.)

My thinking  about local rate is, or at least the way that I understand it is, it costs the same to make a call from Lands End to John o' Groats as it would to call your next door neighbour, what ever code you use, so I fail to understand why the term local rate is used, if there is no such thing. Or perhaps I have got it all wrong?

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~ Edited by Dave: Quote box completed

sherbert wrote on Aug 17^th, 2010 at 6:41pm:

My thinking  about local rate is, or at least the way that I understand it is, it costs the same to make a call from Lands End to John o' Groats as it would to call your next door neighbour, what ever code you use, so I fail to understand why the term local rate is used, if there is no such thing. Or perhaps I have got it all wrong?

No, you haven't.  That's been the case since 1st July 2004, when BT stole a march on the opposition and abolished 'local' and 'national' calls (or, more accurately, combined them).

Heinz wrote on Aug 17^th, 2010 at 6:50pm:

sherbert wrote on Aug 17th, 2010 at 6:41pm: My thinking  about local rate is, or at least the way that I understand it is, it costs the same to make a call from Lands End to John o' Groats as it would to call your next door neighbour, what ever code you use, so I fail to understand why the term local rate is used, if there is no such thing. Or perhaps I have got it all wrong? No, you haven't.  That's been the case since 1st July 2004, when BT stole a march on the opposition and abolished 'local' and 'national' calls (or, more accurately, combined them).

Thanks, that is what I thought, so why does SCV find it 'accepable' to use this term?

sherbert wrote on Aug 17^th, 2010 at 6:57pm:

Thanks, that is what I thought, so why does SCV find it 'acceptable' to use this term?

Because, as explained at great length in the posts above, in my experience most people still do not know that it costs the same to call your neighbour as it does to call from Land's End to John O'Groats.

kasg wrote on Aug 17^th, 2010 at 7:14pm:

sherbert wrote on Aug 17th, 2010 at 6:57pm: Thanks, that is what I thought, so why does SCV find it 'acceptable' to use this term? Because, as explained at great length in the posts above, in my experience most people still do not know that it costs the same to call your neighbour as it does to call from Land's End to John O'Groats.

Those on certain old BT tariffs, some Talk Talk customers and many on business tariffs do not pay the same to call from Ashford in Kent to Ashford in Surrey as to their neighbour. For them there is a distinct "local rate".

I would rather that there were a clearer widely-understood simple term to summarise the benefits enjoyed as a result of switching to a 03 number, but I am prepared to accept what works in the world as it is. I accept that there is no suitable simple precise accurate term to describe the cost of calling 03 numbers. In the case of Hillingdon PCT switching from a 0845 to a 03, I am prepared to accept "local rate" by overlooking those on the old BT tariffs, knowing that Talk Talk treats 03 as local and being aware that NHS services are not available to businesses. As explained above, I fear that the more accurate "national rate" would have created a false and misleading impression, and "UK rate" would have meant little. Alternative suggestions are noticeably absent from this dialogue.

I would not accept use of the term "local rate" to describe the cost of calling a number (e.g. 0845) which is generally more expensive than calling a local number.

I am not prepared to accept the fact that NHS Direct continues to use 0845 numbers for Out of Hours GP services. That, and the proposed abolition of the NHS are of far greater concern to me than the use of technically imprecise language which nevertheless succeeds in getting across the right point about a number change.

There are indeed many who do not "get it". This includes those who believe that "local rate" no longer exists in any sense as well as those who think it is the same as "local NTS rate" and those who think that, with less than 25% of telephone calls originated, BT represents the norm, rather than the exception.

sherbert wrote on Aug 17^th, 2010 at 6:41pm:

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Aug 17th, 2010 at 3:11pm: Most people would give a meaning to the term "local rate". This would be the rate for making a call to a local number on a landline. In this sense the meaning is fairly applied to the cost of calling a 03 number. (The term "local" is defined in the BT document on page number 33 (35 in Acrobat reader.) My thinking  about local rate is, or at least the way that I understand it is, it costs the same to make a call from Lands End to John o' Groats as it would to call your next door neighbour, what ever code you use, so I fail to understand why the term local rate is used, if there is no such thing. Or perhaps I have got it all wrong?

Heinz wrote on Aug 17^th, 2010 at 6:50pm:

No, you haven't.  That's been the case since 1st July 2004, when BT stole a march on the opposition and abolished 'local' and 'national' calls (or, more accurately, combined them).

Exactly, the comparison should be with mobiles, you do  not call any number beginning 01/02/03 "local" or "national", they are just a number from a mobile,(most mobile to mobile will come under the same category), and does not matter if the recipient is stood next to you or at the other end of the country the cost will be the same! So stop calling landline numbers "local/national" they don't exist and just continue to confuse! As Heinz says, " That's been the case since 1st July 2004,", over 6 years ago! Get with the programme!




SilentCallsVictim wrote on Aug 17^th, 2010 at 8:31pm:

Those on certain old BT tariffs, some Talk Talk customers and many on business tariffs do not pay the same to call from Ashford in Kent to Ashford in Surrey as to their neighbour. For them there is a distinct "local rate".

Irrelevant, (unless we are using "minority rules" as against " majority rules").

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~ Edited by Dave: Quote box completed

derrick wrote on Aug 18^th, 2010 at 9:15am:

... stop calling landline numbers "local/national" they don't exist and just continue to confuse! As Heinz says, " That's been the case since 1st July 2004,", over 6 years ago! Get with the programme!

Whilst for the vast majority of residential landline callers and for all payphone and mobile callers there is no distinction between the rates charged, there is no question that the distinction between local and national calls still exists. Talk Talk has demonstrated that it could return to having a relevance to call charges.

Those who wish to be pedantic on points like this must get it right.

In relation to GP Out of Hours services, my programme is focussed on the abuse of the principles of the NHS being practiced by NHS Direct. I am happy to support efforts to introduce 03 numbers. Others may have a quite different programme, as they fail to indicate support for the issues which I see as being the matters of relevance in this forum.


derrick wrote on Aug 18^th, 2010 at 9:15am:

Irrelevant, (unless we are using "minority rules" as against " majority rules").

I hope we are using neither. Due weight must always be given to the interests of both majorities and minorities. If we were using "majority rules", then the healthy majority would not be paying for a National Health Service to meet the needs of the sick minority. Furthermore, we should not disregard the good people of Hull just because they are a minority! (Nobody pointed out that this was an issue which I appeared not to "get" in my previous contributions.)

I believe that a majority of people who read the Hillingdon PCT press release will understand that the cost of calling the new 03 number is the same as that of calling a neighbour, whereas the 0845 number was more expensive for many. When considering the choice of language, that is the only point which I see as being of real relevance.

It would perhaps be of interest to know just what is the programme that I am failing to get. :bemused

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Aug 18^th, 2010 at 10:27am:

Those who wish to be pedantic on points like this must get it right.

That sounds a bit patronising SCV :o

Anyway, with your definitition of local rates, you appear to be in the minority :-?

derrick wrote on Aug 16^th, 2010 at 11:06am:

... Still don't get it do they?

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Aug 16^th, 2010 at 2:40pm:

This issue is very complex; I suspect that none of us totally gets it.

derrick wrote on Aug 18^th, 2010 at 9:15am:

Get with the programme!

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Aug 18^th, 2010 at 10:27am:

Those who wish to be pedantic on points like this must get it right.

sherbert wrote on Aug 18^th, 2010 at 11:38am:

That sounds a bit patronising SCV

Fair point.



sherbert wrote on Aug 18^th, 2010 at 11:38am:

Anyway, with your definitition of local rates, you appear to be in the minority

I do not believe that I have proposed a universal definition of the term "local rate", I have commented on how it used, abused and understood by others, for example:


SilentCallsVictim wrote on Aug 17^th, 2010 at 3:11pm:

Most people would give a meaning to the term "local rate". This would be the rate for making a call to a local number on a landline.

I do not believe that anyone else has offered an alternative suggestion of how readers of the Hillingdon PCT press release would understand the term "local rate" in context.

Perhaps someone would like to propose an alternative way in which the term would be understood, so as to cause confusion or a false impression about the cost of calling the new 03 number. We could then put the question relevant to this thread to a vote.

We could even commission some focus group research to see if it confirms that recently conducted by Ofcom to show that public understanding of the cost of calling NGCS numbers remains very poor.


In the broader context, someone may wish to offer an explanation for the 22 implied or explicit references to "local rate" in the BT price list, and perhaps challenge the definition of "local" that is presented there. Maybe we should we be discussing how Ofcom should revise the National Telephone Numbering Plan to remove the reference to "local rate" alongside the entry for 0845 - this will be amongst the matters it has currently under consideration.


By the very limited evidence of recent postings to this thread, I appear to be in a minority of contributors to this forum. I have repeatedly declared greater concern about abuse of the principles of the NHS than discussion about a particular use of words which neither intends to mislead, nor is likely to have that effect.

If we wish to take on the role of educating an ignorant population about the reality of telephone call charges then we have a duty not to add to misunderstanding, just because it suits our purpose, no matter how noble that may be. There is no point in adopting the tactics of adversaries who are more powerful and influential than we are.

NHS Choose and Book has quietly changed its national enquiry line number from 0845 608 8888 to 0345 608 8888.

NHS Direct still uses 0845 4647 and its alternative 0345 4647 is still parked (routed to a test message) instead of being routed to the service itself.

Dave wrote on Sep 4^th, 2010 at 1:15pm:

NHS Direct still uses 0845 4647

... and will continue to do so until the service is replaced by the 111 "non-emergency" number.

Dudley PCT has replaced its 0845 out of hours GP number with a 0300 one:

http://www.halesowennews.co.uk/news/8785248.New_number_for_borough_out_of__hours_GP_service/