I thought the next London code list began 020-3 after the old two, but I just saw this:

Community Focus  
   
 Avenue House
East End Road
Finchley
London N3 3QE
020 8346 9789
Phone 020 0200 8353

Besides not being told London have started a fourth series of numbers (already?) plus of course everyone in London calling anything starting with zero would get a different exchange anyway.
Can anyone sort this one out as it's not the first 0200 exchange I've seen so not advertised in error.

020 0 is a national dialling range in London. It has existed since the start of the 020 range. However, to dial a number in the 020 0 range, you have to dial the complete number (you can't just dial 0200 8353 if you live in London). Also, I think only BT has to connect these calls - not all other providers will since national dialling ranges are generally used for numbers that aren't dialled by the public (backend number to 090s and 08xx number for example)

I understand some of that (not the tech-speak though, you'd need to spell that one out).
But what is the actual point of adding spare exchanges where you need to dial the whole number where there are millions of free normal numbers left over? Do they have a special function only national dialling can perform?

As far as I'm aware, nearly all area codes (020, 0117, 01309 etc etc) have a national dialling range that starts "0" after the area code, hence 020 0xxx xxxx. They are generally used for public calling (so not sure why that particular organisation is using one) but as the termination number for non-geographic ranges.

TrainTracker is one example - its 0871 number terminates on an 020 1 number (another national dialling range). The general public isn't expected to dial the 020 1 number, so it is used as backend number for the 0871 number.

Not sure how else I can explain it really.

Not to worry, it is more a general reason for their existence needed than more technical details. I also found a psychic reader using the number 020 0200 8901. Now why would they request a weird one like that especially as nearly all callers from London would try the short version and get the unobtainable noise? And why would the telco provide it if these are normally reserved for automated calls
(I understood that bit)?

They aren't just reserved for automated calls - it is just one of their primary uses. As for why people would promote using them, I don't know.

jgxenite wrote on Dec 6^th, 2008 at 4:40pm:

They are generally used for public calling (so not sure why that particular organisation is using one) but as the termination number for non-geographic ranges.

Sorry to be pedantic but you seem to have missed out the crucial world not in the above sentence.

Indeed I did - thanks for noting my slip there NGM.

Where did you find these 020 0 numbers? Normally they would not be used as public-facing numbers. Are they geographical alternatives that you or someone else has found? Perhaps "Community Focus" were using 0845 and decided to publicise the geographical number to avoid ripping people off. And the only thing "psychic readers" can usually predict correctly is that the customer is about to lose a great deal of money through calling an 09 number, so perhaps someone has found the underlying 020 numbers and publicised it.

When you dial a number starting with 0, it indicates that you are going to dial an area code, such as 20 for London. If a local number were to start with 0, you couldn't dial it directly because as soon as you press 0, the exchange is expecting a full national number. The number you tried is unobtainable if you omit the dialling code because it's expecting another four digits.

The same is true for local numbers starting with a 1, as this is reserved for special services (118 directory enquiries, 100 operator, etc.)

My own opinion is that we should go over to whole-number dialling anyway. With so many people using mobiles or VoIP now, and so many organisations using non-geographical numbers, the idea of a local number is largely dead. In fact, I bet many people don't even know you can dial just the local number from a landline. Removing local dialling would free up many new numbers, and delay the day we need a new range of numbers to satisfy demand. It would also mean all numbers would have to be obtainable, which would stop companies using "national dialling only" numbers as the backend number for rip-off numbers to prevent them from being dialled.

jgxenite wrote on Dec 6^th, 2008 at 2:59pm:

Also, I think only BT has to connect these calls - not all other providers will since national dialling ranges are generally used for numbers that aren't dialled by the public (backend number to 090s and 08xx number for example)

Interestingly, when I found the 0116 0 alternative for the Leicester Halls of Residence a few years ago, it could be dialled from NTL lines but not from BT. Calls to BT customer services got me nowhere, as they just insisted the number I had was incorrect.

jrawle wrote on Dec 6^th, 2008 at 6:51pm:

Interestingly, when I found the 0116 0 alternative for the Leicester Halls of Residence a few years ago, it could be dialled from NTL lines but not from BT. Calls to BT customer services got me nowhere, as they just insisted the number I had was incorrect.

You should have escalated this through their formal complaints procedure and/or by emails to their top board members.

When you became deadlocked with BT you should have then taken the complaint on Otelo.

David_H wrote on Dec 6^th, 2008 at 4:29pm:

… Do they have a special function only national dialling can perform?

Definition from the National Telephone Numbering Plan:


Quote:

‘National-Dialling-Only Number’ means a Geographic Number that can only be Adopted or otherwise used with its Geographic Area Code and for purposes where End-Users will not dial it

It goes on to say:


Quote:

Part B: Restrictions for the Adoption of Telephone Numbers […] B3: Specific Restrictions on Telephone Numbers B3.1 Geographic Numbers […] Local Dialling B3.1.3 Geographic Numbers shall not be Adopted or otherwise used other than where End-Users from Geographic Numbers in the same geographic area as the Called Party are able to use only the Subscriber Number (except where those numbers are National-Dialling-Only Numbers – see B3.1.5 below). […] ‘National-Dialling-Only’ Numbers B3.1.5 Geographic Numbers shown as ‘Free for National-Dialling-Only’ in the National Numbering Scheme shall not be Adopted or otherwise used in circumstances where they have public visibility. Where these numbers are Adopted or used for outgoing services a presentation number that is either non-geographic or which permits Local Dialling shall appear for Calling-Line Identification purposes. In the event of a code change to eight-digit numbering in a geographic area, those who have Adopted or used ‘National-Dialling-Only’ numbers shall migrate to the appropriate new range by the end of Parallel Running.

The topic of National Dialling Only Numbers has been discussed on our forum before.



David_H wrote on Dec 6^th, 2008 at 4:55pm:

Not to worry, it is more a general reason for their existence needed than more technical details. I also found a psychic reader using the number 020 0200 8901. Now why would they request a weird one like that especially as nearly all callers from London would try the short version and get the unobtainable noise? And why would the telco provide it if these are normally reserved for automated calls (I understood that bit)?

I think that this will confuse people as they may neglect to dial the code. This is crucial where the national dialling only number (after the prefix) starts 118, for example. Dialling without the code means an expensive call to a directory enquiries service.

I am not convinced that they would have necessarily requested one of these numbers. Telephone companies are allocated prefixes, usually for 10k blocks of numbers. Numbers starting 020 0200 are allocated to TelXL Limited change date January 2004. The only other London TelXL prefix is 020 3368, change date February 2008.

Having chosen TelXL (or one of its resellers), these organisations are then given a number. Before February this year, the only London prefix allocated to TelXL was 020 0200.

Dave wrote on Dec 6^th, 2008 at 11:21pm:

Having chosen TelXL (or one of its resellers), these organisations are then given a number. Before February this year, the only London prefix allocated to TelXL was 020 0200.

Yes but wouldn't TelXl always expect their customers to provide the associated 084 or 087 prefixed non geographic number they had no doubt also also provided to their clients for any calls that they receive from end users. ;) ::)

Surely that is the whole point.  Namely that National Dialling Only Numbers are normally owned by people or organisations who are usually complicit in the whole 084/7 ripoff and who want their customers to have to call the 084/7 number and for the geographic number to not be known or easily guessable.

However every so often someone has an 084/7 number due to naivety and hard selling of the number and then learns customers do not like calling 084/7 numbers and this is where the National Dialling Only number ends up being disclosed to ordinary retails telecoms subscribers.  Similarly in large call centres while the official policy is that the National Dialling Only numbers are not given out to customers some of their staff may oppose the whole 084/7 scam and also happen to know what the National Dialling Only number is and so decide to list the National Dialling Only Number on this site.

As the convention that National Dialling Numbers are not disclosed to end users is only a gentleman's agreement between fellow telecoms scammers that they will not allow their profits to be eroded by letting customers know they have a geographic alternative they can ring Ofcom clearly did not seem to expect anyone to circumvent it.  However as there seem to be no actual penalties for giving these numbers out and as the rules in the NTNP only exist in order to allow end users to be scammed by having to call NGNs as much as possible then clearly this element of the NTNP can be safely ignored by individual telephone users who are in possession of National Dialling Only numbers.

A former OFTEL Numbering Bulletin docment on the Ofcom website has this to say on the matter:-


Quote:

Full National Dialling Ranges Oftel allocates 'full national dialled' blocks to operators for services where the customer does not generally dial the number (e.g. 01202 0X & 1X, 0113 0X & 1X, etc.). Typical applications are resilience/dual parenting, number translation services, internet access and calling card-type services. Oftel has been advised that, owing to network and technical constraints there are some limitations on the use of local numbers starting with '0'.  These limitations may effect 02X blocks that have been allocated for migration of  'full national dialled'  blocks in the National Code and Number Change (NCNC) areas. In light of this, Oftel has changed some of the migration ranges for 'full national dialled' blocks in the NCNC areas.  The migration ranges are now as follows: Old 'Full National Dialled' Range         New Range           Migration & Recovery by 0171 0XX                  020 01XX             14 October 2000 0171 1XX                  020 11XX             14 October 2000 0181 0XX                  020 00XX             14 October 2000 0181 1XX                  020 10XX             14 October 2000 01703 00-19             023 1100-1119       2 September 2000 01705 00-19             023 1000-1019       2 September 2000 01203 00-19             024 1000-1019     19 August 2000 01222 00-19             029 1000-1019       5 August 2000 01232 00-19             028 1000-1019     16 September 2000. Oftel has allocated blocks in the new ranges to the Operators concerned, and has withdrawn the old ranges that do not correspond with the migration ranges above. Also, to ensure that use of the resource is optimised Oftel has developed an internal procedure for allocation of new 'full national dialled' blocks.  Oftel will allocate capacity starting with '0' unless evidence is supplied confirming that the use of 1X is essential.

See also Page 7 (Page 8 of the PDF) at www.ofcom.org.uk/telecoms/ioi/numbers/lonareacod/slides.pdf

NGMsGhost wrote on Dec 7^th, 2008 at 12:00am:

As the convention that National Dialling Numbers are not disclosed to end users is only a gentleman's agreement between fellow telecoms scammers

If, as earlier postings suggest, this is a condition of adoption in the National Telephone Numbering Scheme, then I believe I am right in saying that it does bear on Telcos, who are obliged to comply with the Scheme under the terms of General Conditions.

There may be a question of whether a Telco acting in good faith could be decieved by a user who fails to advise that an adopted number will be used publicly, because here we come back to the problem of Ofcom only having powers of general regulatory control over telecomms providers, not users.

As others are already rustling pages of regulation and this is not an area of expertise, I will simply drop in this thought for now.

N.B. Saynoto0870.com is not, so far as I am aware, under any obligation to comply with the provisions of the National Telephone Numbering Scheme. I am not a lawyer.

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Dec 7^th, 2008 at 12:46am:

N.B. Saynoto0870.com is not, so far as I am aware, under any obligation to comply with the provisions of the National Telephone Numbering Scheme. I am not a lawyer.

No it is not bound by it and nor are any of this site's individual members.  Anyhow as Ofcom/Oftel has so frequently disregarded the principles of its own National Telephone Number Plan in allocating numbers or enabling covert revenue sharing (as dorf has always been so keen to remind us)  why on earth should we worry about a few minor breaches.  Don't forget that Ofcom can't even manage to get telcos to abide by its own General Conditions regarding phone bills in terms of properly describing various call types to customers (eg misusing using the terms, Lo-Call, Local Rate and National Rate for higher cost NTS numbers).

Surely having phone numbers that can be dialled but that are meant to be kept secret is a pretty nonsensical idea in the first place.  It only exists because of the very absurdity of people trying to charge extra for what should only be normal standard priced phone calls. :o >:( [smiley=thumbdown.gif]

NGMsGhost wrote on Dec 6^th, 2008 at 5:32pm:

jgxenite wrote on Dec 6th, 2008 at 4:40pm: They are generally used for public calling (so not sure why that particular organisation is using one) but as the termination number for non-geographic ranges. Sorry to be pedantic but you seem to have missed out the crucial world not in the above sentence.

And you seem to be encompassing the Globe  ;D

Just a joke, don't get upset  ;)

Pardon the delay, I must change the password here so I can remember it and login elsewhere...

The 02 0200 number was in a spiritual magazine in a huge ad. I initially thought it must be from abroad but no, it was a real number as I have the codebook. Then I googled and found Avenue House, a Barnet Borough agency for volunteers, advertise it on their website. Very odd.

"resilience/dual parenting"

Please translate!

David_H wrote on Dec 12^th, 2008 at 12:09pm:

"resilience/dual parenting" Please translate!

I'm sure you should meet up with our forum member Tanllan as it sounds like you and he may have similar career backgrounds?

I think that it may be something of a paranoid myth that these numbers are supposed to be secret and used only as targets for 0845 and other non-geographic numbers, though I note the old Oftel reference that NGM found.

I've occasionally noticed London numbers in 020 1~ and 020 0~ for 3 or 4 years, and indeed I had one of the latter myself briefly in summer 2005, which together with that 0200 callthrough to freephone numbers could be called quite normally from a BT landline and from 3 different mobile networks I tried.

Well, 0116 005 numbers are still not diallable from a BT landline - I've just tried!