Just heard this on Radio 4 news. I can't believe it. I don't understand how they can do it.

Gobsmacked ;D

(BT have confirmed that this will take effect from Friday 16th January 2009)


DC09-002                                                                                                January 8, 2009

BT £24M GIVEAWAY HELPS 14m CUSTOMERS SAY NO TO 0870


BT today offered some New Year cheer to 14 million customers by becoming the first UK telephone company to make calls to 0870 and 0845 numbers free.
    Customers have often complained that their calling packages did not include the 0870 and 0845 numbers which are frequently used by banks, insurance companies and even doctor’s surgeries. Calls to these numbers cost more than usual, with Sky and Virgin charging around 10p a minute for a daytime 0870 call.
    BT has always charged much cheaper rates, but has now decided to go even further. In a move costing BT tens of millions, the company has decided to give customers what they want by including 0870 and 0845 numbers in call packages.*
    An Anytime customer will now get their calls to these numbers for free – as well as all their calls to UK landlines and great rates on mobile calls – for just £4.85 a month, which works out at less than the cost of a second class stamp a day.
    A customer who is on the Evening and Weekend package will get their 0870 and 0845 calls for free, as well as their UK landline calls, after 6pm every day and all weekend.
    No UK phone company has ever included these call types in their packages before, because 0845 and 0870 numbers generate large revenues for the banks, utility firms and other organisations that use them.    
    However, customers resented the high charges for 0870 and 0845 numbers, especially as the organisations using them were seen to be making a profit from them. Campaigners even set up a web site to let customers know other numbers to call the same companies, called saynoto0870.
    The Government recently announced a review of doctors and NHS departments using 084 numbers, because customers complained they should not be charged more to call for medical help.
    John Petter, managing director of BT’s Consumer business, said: “We know that the public is frustrated by having to pay higher charges for these numbers, even though BT’s rates were cheaper than our rivals, so we worked out a way to go further and include calls to 0870 and 0845 numbers in our call packages.
    “These numbers are widely used by banks, utilities and even NHS Direct, and our customers spend 30 minutes a month on average calling these numbers. We hope we have taken a sting out of the price of these calls, but also removed one of those irritations that customers believed was an unfair anomaly.
    “All of our 14m calls customers have free calls included in their package and now all 14m have free calls to 0870 and 0845 at times that fit with their calling plan, which is something not offered by any of our competitors.”

*excludes ISP dial-up numbers and indirect access numbers. Full details at bt.com.

The table below shows how much you can save on a 10-minute call made on a Saturday morning:

     BT      Virgin Media      Talk Talk      Tiscali      Sky      Post Office
0845 Numbers      FREE      75p      26p      45p      67p      10p
0870 Numbers      FREE      £1.04      65p      85p      £1.07      20p

Prices correct at time of going to print. Comparison based on pence-per-minute rates and set-up fees charged after 8am at the weekend (correct December 2008). Competitor monthly line rental costs from £11 (Virgin Media), £10.50 (TalkTalk), £10.99 (Tiscali), £10 (Sky) and £10.72 (Post Office). Content of packages vary and prices quoted exclude calling circle discounts, where applicable.

Inquiries about this news release should be made to Michael Jarvis on 020 7356 6045  or the BT Group Newsroom on its 24-hour number: 020 7356 5369. From outside the UK, dial +44 20 7356 5369.

All BT Group news releases can be accessed at our web site: www.bt.com/newscentre.


About BT

BT is one of the world’s leading providers of communications solutions and services operating in 170 countries.  Its principal activities include the provision of networked IT services globally; local, national and international telecommunications services to our customers for use at home, at work and on the move; broadband and internet products and services and converged fixed/mobile products and services.  BT consists principally of four lines of business: BT Global Services, Openreach, BT Retail and BT Wholesale.

In the year ended 31 March 2008, BT Group’s revenue was £20,704 million with profit before taxation and specific items of £2,506 million.

British Telecommunications plc (BT) is a wholly-owned subsidiary of BT Group plc and encompasses virtually all businesses and assets of the BT Group.  BT Group plc is listed on stock exchanges in London and New York.  

Great news - cue Sky, Virgin et al!

john

This will really put the cat amongst the pidgeons!

Well done BT. It is a good competitive move and it will be interesting to see what the fallout is.

However this doesn't excuse all those who use these numbers and the problem will still exist with other providers, mobile users.

What about 0844?

What possible justification (not that there was one) can someone using 0844 give now?

BT have confirmed that this will take effect from Friday 16th January 2009.

Thanks
Daniel

Damn, now I'll have to think of something else to post on 1 April...

Of course, so many companies have already switched from 0870 to 0844 or 0871, either to increase revenue, or to avoid Ofcom's changes that in the event never materialised anyway. It's getting far more rare to see 0870 numbers advertised.

Anyone with BT should probably still avoid 0845 and 0870 numbers so as to deny the greedy companies using these numbers their revenue share. After all, it'll ultimately be BT customers paying for this as BT will claw back the cost by tweaking other prices ("call set-up" fees, rounding, daytime call costs for those without inclusive calls, etc.)

Having said that, will I really bother to visit the site to find a geographical number now it won't be saving me money, particularly when the alternative numbers often don't get through to quite the right place? Probably not, although I'll still be happy to hunt for alternate numbers when people request them.

Just spoke to BT
Starts 16th Jan and only applies to 0845 and 0870 !!??

allybalder wrote on Jan 8^th, 2009 at 11:04am:

Just spoke to BT Starts 16th Jan and only applies to 0845 and 0870 !!??

Of course. These are no longer the numbers making the biggest money, which is probably why BT can afford to do this now. The biggest rip-off merchants have already moved on to 0844 or 0871 (and now also 0843 and 0872).

Quote:

Customers have often complained that their calling packages did not include the 0870 and 0845 numbers which are frequently used by banks, insurance companies and even doctor’s surgeries

Firstly how does including 0845 and 0870 numbers in call packages help anyone needing to call their doctors surgery that uses an 0844 phone number? ::) :-/

So a blatantly misleading press release here by BT.

Secondly BT is clearly able to afford this move from the crippling charges it now levies for a minimum connection fee on its Weekend Calls Plan thereby forcing most customers with families to sign up for its Anytime Calls Plan.  Also it clearly derives far more profit from Line Rental by various other crooked accounting procedures that make it look as though it has high fixed costs while it does not.  Meanwhile its CPS and LLU product privals make basically nothing on line rental.

Thirdly I cannot see how BT possibly hopes to avoid a reference to Ofcom, OFT, Competition Commission or Competition Commission Appeals Tribunal over this move since its pricing here clearly does not reflect underlying costs on 0845 and 0870 but instead heavy cross subsidisation from other heavily priced areas of its call tariffs.

Lastly does BT still offer a mobile phone product of any kind and if so will it be including 0845 and 0870 calls in call packages on those call bundles?

And also now why we finally know why BT has worked so hard to convert most of its NTS customers on 0845 and 0870 to 0844 and 0871 over the last couple of years don't we. ;) ::) >:(

This is very positive news for some BT customers, however a little thought suggests a number of points to watch.

This only extends the scope of the packages, it does not affect the charges that are made. The revenue share, which remains, is simply taken out of the, presumably increased number of, Anytime call plan subscriptions.

The fact that calls to 0845 are already being operated as a "loss leader" demonstrates that there is a high level of cross-subsidy seen in BT's tariff structures. Whilst the company remains profitable nothing is actually being given away.

Although this is not directly BT's responsibility, if this move makes 0845 numbers appear more acceptable this will make life worse for those who cannot get a BT landline and have to use a PAYG mobile to claim benefits and contact NHS Direct.

This move must not be allowed to dilute the pressure, and the need to remove use of revenue sharing totally from the public sector.
(Private sector users should be subject to similar regulatory constraints as those which apply to "premium rate services", which these are in all but name.)

If, as is intended and probably inevitable, this causes more to subscribe to inclusive packages then the differential cost of calling 0844 numbers will increase, making them appear even more expensive.

We must remember that, regardless of the actual cost of calling, the principle of revenue sharing is unacceptable for public services in general and for the NHS in particular. Even if the revenue share is being paid for only as a tiny part of the line rental, then it is unacceptable for a call to NHS Direct to be on a 0845 number.

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Jan 8^th, 2009 at 11:39am:

The fact that calls to 0845 are already being operated as a "loss leader" demonstrates that there is a high level of cross-subsidy seen in BT's tariff structures. Whilst the company remains profitable nothing is actually being given away.

Genuine loss leaders are one thing but leveraging the benefits of being both an OCP and a TCP in respect of the vast majority of 0845 and 0870 numbers made in a way other parties cannot hope to do is clearly anti competitive.

Up to now the clearly anti competitive and artificially subsidised BT 0845 daytime rate of 2p per minute has been a small pin prick for its competitors but the publicity and aggressive selling BT will use in connection with this move will be like a large knife wound and I would expect a major complaint and investigation for anti competitive behaviour against BT by the likes of Talktalk, Tiscali, Sky and Cable & Wireless.  I would expect this to end up at the Competition Appeals Tribunal if Ofcom sides with BT.

By the way what has suddenly brought Daniel back to life as a forum participant.  Has he just retuned from his winter stint in Lapland or something? ;) ::) ;D

Hi all

Just thought we could help clarify a few things. It is our understanding that;

This does not include 0844. Not sure why since 0870 is more expensive to call.

This is only for BT residential customers on a package which has inclusive local and evening calls (apparently everyone is on a package these days).

This does not include business customers calling 0845 or 0870 numbers.

BT have a 60% market share so only applies to those people with a BT package.

As always we're quite confident other operators will follow suit in the future e.g. Sky, Tiscali etc.

03 numbers are still the best number for everyone by far, as they are the same price to call as standard landlines from any operator, inclusive in all call packages and also the only number which is inclusive in mobile packages (40% of all calls are now from mobiles).

Hope that helps.

Mark Guy
Windsor Telecom
www.windsor-telecom.co.uk

mark1979 wrote on Jan 8^th, 2009 at 12:56pm:

It is our understanding that; This does not include 0844. Not sure why since 0870 is more expensive to call.

Indeed this is very hard for us at SayNoTo0870 to understand Mark since BT, other NTS number vendors and of course you and your colleagues at Windsor Telecom have clearly been spending much of the last couple of years telling anyone with an 0870 number who wanted to hang on to revenue share that they should be replacing it with an 0844 number instead. ;) ::)

So this is clearly all about appearance rather than substance, especially when BT lay claim to doing away with the problem of being surcharged for calling your doctor in their press release and this is clearly totally untrue (all doctors surgeries using revenue sharing NTS numbers now use 0844)


Quote:

This is only for BT residential customers on a package which has inclusive local and evening calls (apparently everyone is on a package these days).

I would hope it was also applicable in the weekday daytime to any BT residential customers on their 24/7 inclusive calls package (BT Option 3 as was).


Quote:

As always we're quite confident other operators will follow suit in the future e.g. Sky, Tiscali etc.

Not necessarily as they don't terminate the same percentage of calls to NTS numbers as BT does so may not be able to afford to do so.  Also BT makes large profits on customers who just pay line rental and make very few out of bundle calls (contrary to whatever accounting slight of hand they may use to make claims to the contrary) while their competitors don't make anything on line rental and can only make any money at all on call bundles plus the many call types excluded from bundles.


Quote:

03 numbers are still the best number for everyone by far, as they are the same price to call as standard landlines from any operator, inclusive in all call packages and also the only number which is inclusive in mobile packages (40% of all calls are now from mobiles).

I am sure that many of us here never thought we would see the day when Windsor telecom would finally see the light on this issue.

As the old biblical saying goes:-

"There is more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over 99 righteous people who need no repentance.  There is more joy in heaven over one sinner who comes home than 99 people already there." ;) ::) ;D

Indeed, we will not stop saying no to 0870 because the subsidy is still well above that of any local or national geographical or 03 call. Thus, service providers are still charging callers.

And this only affects those on BT all or part inclusive tariffs. For the latter it only applies at certain times.

Those with other providers, business customers, and those who can't afford a landline who use only a mobile still pay through the nose. Whilst that's not BT's fault, the SAYNOTO0870 campaign must ensure that this is not lost in the good news for some of BT's customers.

Dave wrote on Jan 8^th, 2009 at 1:12pm:

Those with other providers, business customers, and those who can't afford a landline who use only a mobile still pay through the nose. Whilst that's not BT's fault, the SAYNOTO0870 campaign must ensure that this is not lost in the good news for some of BT's customers.

And let us not forget BT Payphones division where no call packages of any kind are available to customers and all 084 and 087 numbers (including 0845 and 0870) are now charged at truly obscene rates that are many multiples of the cost of an 01/02/03 call from the same payphone.

I think the time to begin piling the pressure on BT Payphones division and on BT's two faced new CEO (Ian Livingston) about the unacceptability of the continuation of that particular obscenity (especially for say NHS Direct, Police Non Emergency, local councils, local doctors surgeries and the Samaritans) has now finally arrived. :o >:(

Quote:
This is only for BT residential customers on a package which has inclusive local and evening calls (apparently everyone is on a package these days).


I would hope it was also applicable in the weekday daytime to any BT residential customers on their 24/7 inclusive calls package (BT Option 3 as was).





An Anytime customer will now get their calls to these numbers for free – as well as all their calls to UK landlines and great rates on mobile calls – for just £4.85 a month, which works out at less than the cost of a second class stamp a day.

sherbert wrote on Jan 8^th, 2009 at 1:34pm:

An Anytime customer will now get their calls to these numbers for free – as well as all their calls to UK landlines and great rates on mobile calls – for just £4.85 a month, which works out at less than the cost of a second class stamp a day.

Do you or a relative by any chance work for BT then sherbert? :-/

I do not intend to return to BT over this move as it might then deter me from being sufficiently assiduous in avoiding ever giving my business to companies who I cannot call by using an 084/7 alternative.

Also if everyone moves to BT and calls these 084/7 numbers during the inclusive minutes periods the cost of these packages will soon begin to spiral upwards as the underlying problem of the high termination cost of 084/7 calls is not being addressed by this move.

In any case as we have seen many of the largest call centres have now moved to 0844 and 0871 where the need to continue using this website to avoid those numbers will remain as strong as ever............

Perhaps it's time for a new website - sayNonto0871.com or perhaps whypaymorefor0844.com  ;)

mayojs wrote on Jan 8^th, 2009 at 1:59pm:

Perhaps it's time for a new website - sayNonto0871.com or perhaps whypaymorefor0844.com  ;)

www.saynotophoneripoffs.com would have a greater sense of permanence about it I think.

But the case for any change is not made out so long as 0870 numbers continue to cost many people who call them huge amounts extra in call charges.  This continues to remain the case, even after this latest BT announcement.

NGMsGhost wrote on Jan 8^th, 2009 at 1:50pm:

sherbert wrote on Jan 8th, 2009 at 1:34pm: An Anytime customer will now get their calls to these numbers for free – as well as all their calls to UK landlines and great rates on mobile calls – for just £4.85 a month, which works out at less than the cost of a second class stamp a day. Do you or a relative by any chance work for BT then sherbert? :-/

No, never NGMsGhost, nor do I know anyone who works for them. ::)

However, I am probably what you will probaly call 'one of these sad individuals' who have been with BT for about 35 years who have never given me any problems with my land line or broadband. No doubt you will say that I am probably in the minority who have not had problems.

For £75 a quarter for Broadband, landline, calls and VAT I don't think is a bad deal. No doubt there are cheaper deals out there, but for about £6 a week I don't think it is worth the bother to change to someone else. I am sure you will disagree though! ;)

sherbert wrote on Jan 8^th, 2009 at 2:18pm:

However, I am probably what you will probaly call 'one of these sad individuals' who have been with BT for about 35 years who have never given me any problems with my land line or broadband. No doubt you will say that I am probably in the minority who have not had problems. For £75 a quarter for Broadband, landline, calls and VAT I don't think is a bad deal. No doubt there are cheaper deals out there, but for about £6 a week I don't think it is worth the bother to change to someone else. I am sure you will disagree though! ;)

I find it extraordinary you never moved away from BT in the days when their calls and their call packages were far more expensive than those of the opposition.  Obviously that is not so much the case now unless you live in what they call an LLU area where the likes of TalkTalk are still much, much cheaper than BT for phone calls and broadband combined.

I have always found BT's telephone customer service utterly atrocious over many years and so have never understood why people feel any sense of loyalty to this company when it  still has 60% of the UK residential telecoms marketplace.

NGMsGhost wrote on Jan 8^th, 2009 at 2:27pm:

sherbert wrote on Jan 8th, 2009 at 2:18pm: However, I am probably what you will probaly call 'one of these sad individuals' who have been with BT for about 35 years who have never given me any problems with my land line or broadband. No doubt you will say that I am probably in the minority who have not had problems. For £75 a quarter for Broadband, landline, calls and VAT I don't think is a bad deal. No doubt there are cheaper deals out there, but for about £6 a week I don't think it is worth the bother to change to someone else. I am sure you will disagree though! ;) I find it extraordinary you never moved away from BT in the days when their calls and their call packages were far more expensive than those of the opposition.  Obviously that is not so much the case now unless you live in what they call an LLU area where the likes of TalkTalk are still much, much cheaper than BT for phone calls and broadband combined. I have always found BT's telephone customer service utterly atrocious over many years and so have never understood why people feel any sense of loyalty to this company when it  still has 60% of the UK residential telecoms marketplace.

I take your point and do agree that I probably have been lazy over the years. In fairness I can honestly say that I have only call BT a handful of times over the years and agree the customer service a bit iffy but usually do solve the problems in the end. Any problems, which thankfully are rare, with my broadband I use the on line help, which I have found pretty good.
On the other hand I know some people who have Talk Talk (not in my area) and they have had huge problems with their customer service. Infact my nephew had to wait over six months to get connected on one occasion.

Not had many problems with BT either, but when I have after being transferred here there and back again to a call centres in India and Scotland.    At least I am not paying for the call, as far as I can remember calls to "customer service" have always been 0800. with BT .   Notice by the way that Talk Talk CS number is 0870   :o

Those with Midlands connections may be interested to know that BBC Radio WM are planning to cover this story on their "Drivetime" show at around 5:35 this afternoon.

I encourage all those with some knowledge of the issue and something to say on behalf of this forum to contact their local (and any other) media with offers of contributions.

jimjim wrote on Jan 8^th, 2009 at 3:04pm:

At least I am not paying for the call, as far as I can remember calls to "customer service" have always been 0800. with BT .      :o

Only since last April

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Jan 8^th, 2009 at 3:05pm:

Those with Midlands connections may be interested to know that BBC Radio WM are planning to cover this story on their "Drivetime" show at around 5:35 this afternoon.

I thought your connection was actually with London and not with the West Midlands area.

Or are you saying that Dave or Daniel will be getting some press coverage for the campaign for a change?

I think anyone talking to the press on this issue needs to be very careful to avoid giving the impression that we believe BT is really acting in the interests of consumers or that the whole 084/7 problem is solved for BT customers by this move.  What about the great transfer of Sky and doctor's surgeries etc to 0844 numbers that are not covered at all under this deal.

sherbert wrote on Jan 8^th, 2009 at 3:12pm:

jimjim wrote on Jan 8th, 2009 at 3:04pm:    At least I am not paying for the call, as far as I can remember calls to "customer service" have always been 0800. with BT .      :o Only since last April

Are we talking about phone or broadband customer services? For residential phone customers the number has always been 0800 800 150, or just 150 from a BT line. And when I took over my current line just over two years ago, I was able to call that free from the phonebox round the corner, and as an alternative to waiting in a queue, it gave me the option of being called back on my mobile. So I went home, and someone called me within the hour.

Don't know anything about BT Broadband customer services, though. I don't see any justification in any broadband supplier charging for customer service when the customer also uses their phone service. After all, there will be no third party costs to pay.

See their press release here, when they got rid of their own 0870 & 0845 numbers last year


http://www.btplc.com/News/Articles/ShowArticle.cfm?ArticleID=6a696962-125e-436a-a0fd-0c699ad8f965

So they were broadband numbers. As they say, "Ninety two per cent of calls into BT are already free of charge".

The article from the Guardian reporting BT's move today is quite good. They refer to the numbers as "premium rate" and say 0844 and 0871 are "even more expensive".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2009/jan/08/bt-customers-premium-rate-phonecalls

The only thing I'm unhappy about in reports about this is claims that these calls are now "free". They are actually inclusive. And of course, only at certain times of day/weekend for most customers.

I agree with NGMGhost on this issue re the problem is not solved.

I think it is a very clever competitive move by BT.

However lots of organisations who shouldn't be profiting from these numbers will still be doing so. They will still be doing so at BTs customers expense as this will be a cost to BT that they have to recover from us their customers. Also if you are with another supplier, use a mobile, use a payphone or dial 0844 or 0871 you will still be paying.

As I have mentioned before I have absolutely no objection to premium rate numbers (I use 09 numbers) provided they are not used by public services and that if used by private commercial organisations they are properly regulated with clear accurate information eg don't call them local, clearly state the cost in print and when the call is answered, don't allow waiting times past a limited number of seconds, etc, etc. The 08XX numbers fail on all these counts.

Although the BT announcement is good news and will clearly stir up a can or worms and will highlight the issue (particularly with 0844 numbers - what will NEG do now?), we mustn't let the media think that the problem has now gone way - it hasn't.

Maybe BT is expecting Ofcom to (finally) stop revenue sharing on 0870 and return it to geographical rate.

Keith wrote on Jan 8^th, 2009 at 4:55pm:

I agree with NGMGhost on this issue re the problem is not solved.

I think we all agree; this does nothing whatsoever to change the nature of revenue sharing, it simply shuffles the source of the income and enables a few people to avoid having to hit the SayNo database.

It is vital to combat any suggestion that this is anything more than a benefit to some BT customers; apparently 1.4M are on Anytime, 4.3M on Evenings and the remaining 7.9M on Weekends. The intention is that the total number will increase with a bias towards Anytime.

It is the revenue sharing that is the point at issue, regardless of how the OCP juggles its income.


I am grateful to a friend of the campaign who has provided this recording of a piece from BBC Radio 5Live broadcast just before 1:00 today.

Presumably, for every other telco that BT has an interconnection with, there is an interconnection agreement which specifies the termination rates payable by each party, and those agreements are reviewed periodically. So all BT has to do is at the next renewal of such agreements only agree to much lower termination rates for 0845 and 0870 outgoing calls from their network, then this move costs them nothing while they gain from the publicity and increased take up of inclusive calls packages.

Graham wrote on Jan 8^th, 2009 at 5:44pm:

Presumably, for every other telco that BT has an interconnection with, there is an interconnection agreement which specifies the termination rates payable by each party, and those agreements are reviewed periodically. So all BT has to do is at the next renewal of such agreements only agree to much lower termination rates for 0845 and 0870 outgoing calls from their network, then this move costs them nothing while they gain from the publicity and increased take up of inclusive calls packages.

The termination rates BT pays to other telephone providers for calls to their 08xx and 09xx numbers are regulated. As a result of today's change they will have to be reviewed. BT is allowed to keep a tiny amount (I say tiny relative to the retail charge).

The rates paid out by BT when calling from one of its lines are the same for all terminating telcos except where the call ends with BT.

In the short term it will cost BT because the termination rates haven't been adjusted.

The situation with termination rates is complicated further as there has been an ongoing dispute between BT and many other telcos about lower termination rates on 0870 calls as proposed by BT in the Summer of 2007 (Ref CW/00963/07/07). Resolution of this is necessary before Ofcom can consider proceeding with implementation of its proposed regulatory changes for 0870, which it had intended to do for February 2008.

The case has been suspended since late 2007 as Ofcom's proposed resolution was seen to be invalid, due to the method used to resolve another case (Ref CW/00942/12/06) having been challenged. This challenge was deemed to be succesful by the Competition Appeals Tribunal, however a revised acceptable method has yet to be developed and proved in that other case. Only when this is done could Ofcom resolve this case and get back on track with the proposed changes to 0870.

In the meantime BT has no choice but to continue paying the high termination rates, as any other proposed change would surely be challenged. It will now be ceasing to collect extra (indeed any) revenue from some calls. Anyone who understands all of this may wish to speculate about what the next moves will be and what impact today's announcement may have on any regulatory and potential judicial determinations.

As to whether any similar situation could arise with 0845, when Ofcom has not even started looking at this in the context of its review of NTS, is a matter for speculation only by real experts.

As for 0844 with its 18 different call types .......

NGMsGhost wrote on Jan 8^th, 2009 at 1:50pm:

Also if everyone moves to BT and calls these 084/7 numbers during the inclusive minutes periods the cost of these packages will soon begin to spiral upwards as the underlying problem of the high termination cost of 084/7 calls is not being addressed by this move.

I think we can all agree that this will happen.

There is no such thing as "free"in this country!  BT will still have to pay termination rates to those CPs for any 084/087 numbers that do not belong to BT and as this is no longer recoverable at all from BT customers who have inclusive plans (myself included), it will eventually mean an increase in not only cost of chargable calls/inclusive plans but possibly things like calling features and line rental.

Sky did something similar when they said calls from their price plans to their customer services would be free but of course they also raised their 0845/0870 substantially to the same price (I believe) as Virgin.

Although I do get our calls from BT and will continue to stay with them until such time as they increase their plans, etc or another supplier becomes cheaper than BT and I still get freedom to route calls as I see fit (unlike what Sky do).

Any bets on a timeframe when BT will announce price increases on their plans?  I believe about 6months+ lol

jrawle wrote on Jan 8^th, 2009 at 3:32pm:

sherbert wrote on Jan 8th, 2009 at 3:12pm: jimjim wrote on Jan 8th, 2009 at 3:04pm:    At least I am not paying for the call, as far as I can remember calls to "customer service" have always been 0800. with BT .      :o Only since last April Are we talking about phone or broadband customer services? For residential phone customers the number has always been 0800 800 150, or just 150 from a BT line. And when I took over my current line just over two years ago, I was able to call that free from the phonebox round the corner, and as an alternative to waiting in a queue, it gave me the option of being called back on my mobile. So I went home, and someone called me within the hour. Don't know anything about BT Broadband customer services, though. I don't see any justification in any broadband supplier charging for customer service when the customer also uses their phone service. After all, there will be no third party costs to pay.

Yes, I meant phone.

While many of us are rightly suspicious of BT's motives it's a step in the right direction and gives good publicity to our cause. 0844 and 0871 are still a problem. However these also have legitimate uses, notably "dial through" PAYG services for low cost overseas calls.

allegro wrote on Jan 9^th, 2009 at 8:30am:

While many of us are rightly suspicious of BT's motives it's a step in the right direction and gives good publicity to our cause. 0844 and 0871 are still a problem. However these also have legitimate uses, notably "dial through" PAYG services for low cost overseas calls.

Some 0845 and 0870 numbers are also used for dial-through, and dial-up ISPs traditionally use 0845. BT have said these numbers will be excluded, just as geographical ISP numbers are. This is no reason for BT's offer not being extended to 0844 and 0871.

That was going to be my next question, why haven't they


This is no reason for BT's offer not being extended to 0844 and 0871

sherbert wrote on Jan 9^th, 2009 at 10:22am:

That was going to be my next question, why haven't they This is no reason for BT's offer not being extended to 0844 and 0871

That would certainly encourage people to move to BT's Unlimited Anytime Plan.

It's probably just the costs (losses) they would have to bear.

Heinz wrote on Jan 9^th, 2009 at 10:57am:

It's probably just the costs (losses) they would have to bear.

This is probably the only reason.  BT have only done this for publicity and to gain extra customers but they know that a lot of companies on these numbers have already moved to 0844 and/or 0871/2 range so the losses from introducing this now is lot less than if they'd introduced it a year ago or something.

It would not be financially viable to include all 08 number ranges unless, like (expensive rip off) VirginMedia, offer tariffs with limited minutes but include number ranges like 084/087 but at a more hefty price compared to the usual unlimited (albeit geographically charged) plans.

jrawle wrote on Jan 9^th, 2009 at 9:45am:

This is no reason for BT's offer not being extended to 0844 and 0871.

0871 calls are mostly 10 pence a minute

No chance of underwriting hundreds of minutes of those on an inclusive package for a few quid

When considering the limit of the inclusion to 0845 and 0870, the following points may be considered.

The cost of what was done is not as great as may be assumed.

BT has been running calls to 0845 numbers at what would appear to be a loss, when compared with the charges for normal calls, for some time. I have no figures, but I suspect that a very large proportion of the 0845 numbers in use are provided by BT. This would mean that whilst, as a group, it would suffer from providing discounted services with no compensation on these numbers, it would not be suffering the cost of paying out cash to subsidise someone else's services without compensation that would be suffered by other telcos that may follow its lead.

BT still expects Ofcom to go ahead with its long-announced prohibition on revenue sharing for 0870 numbers in the very near future. When I asked today if I could have an additional 0870 number so that I could make a packet out of BT by calling myself at the weekend, I was told that I could. I was however warned (before I declared the likely source of the calls), that BT was not recommending customers to use 0870 numbers because it expected the revenue sharing deal to have to end very soon.

The cost of adding 0844 would be much greater.


Also, BT will gain in other ways.

We must also remember that only 1.4 million of the 14 million customers said to be benefitting are currently on the Anytime plan. If others misunderstand the publicity around this announcement and now start making lots of daytime calls to 0845, 0870 and even 0844 numbers in the mistaken belief that they are free, then some of the cost involved in the move would be recovered.

There is also the benefit to be achieved from encouraging more to sign up for the Anytime plan. Some would do so in the mistaken belief that this would enable them to call their GP's 0844 number for free.

These benefits would not be enhanced significantly by adding 0844.

NGMsGhost wrote on Jan 8^th, 2009 at 3:28pm:

Or are you saying that Dave or Daniel will be getting some press coverage for the campaign for a change?

Today's Yorkshire Post, page 9. I will post a link when I find the article online.  ;)

I am not so sure that BT could include 0844 and 0871 calls even if it wanted. The finer detail will have to be checked, but the regulations which apply are as follows:

1) The "NTS Condition" means that the amount BT keeps for originating 08 and 09 calls is kept to cost plus "retail uplift". In essence, the terminating telco (TCP) gets most of the revenue.

2) The pricing point a particular 0844/0871 is on is determined by the TCP. So for the doctors' 0844 blocks, Opal Telecom says that they will be in band g6 (5ppm or thereabouts accepting the VAT rate change).

The TCPs can also decide whether 0844/0871 numbers are allowed to be "discounted" by BT. I think most cannot be discounted.

Thus, for 0844/0871 a TCP can vary the terminating payment it gets by varying BT's retail price of its number block.


With 0845 and 0870 BT is allowed to apply a retail "discount", which means that the amount TCPs get varies whenever BT changes it retail price.

I am assured by Ofcom that BT does not make a loss on 0845 calls at present. The NTS Condition formula regulates how much it is allowed to keep.

New terminating rates will have to be calculated following BT's announcement that it will include 0845 and 0870 in packages.


I will confirm that following the implementation of the new terminating rates BT will not make a loss even if it includes them in packages.

I wonder if BT can discount the retail price of 0844/0871 numbers and not reduce the terminating payment. Not reducing the terminating payment implies it will make a loss as well as breaking the NTS Condition, all be it it is keeping less that it allows.

If BT won't make a loss on 0845/0870 when it includes them in packages and when the termination payments have been changed, then it's unlikely that 0844/0871 will ever change as the business plan is obviously not a loss leader. Furthermore, 0844/0871 cannot be discounted at all.

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Jan 9^th, 2009 at 7:56pm:

When I asked today if I could have an additional 0870 number so that I could make a packet out of BT by calling myself at the weekend, I was told that I could. I was however warned (before I declared the likely source of the calls), that BT was not recommending customers to use 0870 numbers because it expected the revenue sharing deal to have to end very soon.

Nice idea! That's about the only thing that would get me to sign up for the Anytime plan. I could get the fee back in half a day, then make a packet for the rest of the month!

I presume the usual BT conditions will apply: the call will ony be "free" for an hour, after which one must redial. Let's hope that queue to a call centre doesn't last more than an hour.

Also, what will happen to the prices for those of us not on the Anytime plan? Will the cost of 0845 calls still only be half that of geographical calls?


SilentCallsVictim wrote on Jan 9^th, 2009 at 7:56pm:

We must also remember that only 1.4 million of the 14 million customers said to be benefitting are currently on the Anytime plan. If others misunderstand the publicity around this announcement and now start making lots of daytime calls to 0845, 0870 and even 0844 numbers in the mistaken belief that they are free, then some of the cost involved in the move would be recovered. There is also the benefit to be achieved from encouraging more to sign up for the Anytime plan. Some would do so in the mistaken belief that this would enable them to call their GP's 0844 number for free.

Two good points here, both suggesting that some people will hear this announcement, and be tricked into spending more one way or another. If people assume 0844 calls are also included, the result could be disastrous.

jrawle wrote on Jan 9^th, 2009 at 10:17pm:

some people will hear this announcement, and be tricked into spending more one way or another.

Given the decision that BT had made (which is coherent in the context of a relatively complex structure of call plans) I do not think that any of its own words could be shown to be misleading or intended to decieve. It was however sadly inevitable that some would get carried away in seeking to report the news in a simple way and thereby create a false impression. This happens with every news story in every organ of the media every hour of every day.

Those who market products and services cannot be allowed to mislead or deceive. It is a different matter to prohibit them from doing anything that could possibly be misunderstood, or potentially described in a way that could be misunderstood. We will naturally assume that those whom we oppose are responsible for deliberately seeking to mislead, whereas those we support are the victims of poor journalism. I believe that it is broadly the same for everyone.

Dave wrote on Jan 9^th, 2009 at 8:43pm:

I am assured by Ofcom that BT does not make a loss on 0845 calls at present. The NTS Condition formula regulates how much it is allowed to keep.

If BT doesnt make a loss on 0845 then even allowing a penny or two means other OCPs would be making a profit but then that means Virgin (followed by Sky) that charge extornate rates for calls to 0845/0870 are making an absolute fortune (not including the money they make from "connection" fees).

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Jan 9^th, 2009 at 7:56pm:

. When I asked today if I could have an additional 0870 number so that I could make a packet out of BT by calling myself at the weekend, I was told that I could.

To do this, would you not need another line as well, therefore incurring a second line rental?

How can you call yourself on the same line? When I do this I get the engaged tone.

Source: Yorkshire Post

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/BT-drops-charges-for-some.4860349.jp

BT drops charges for some high-cost numbers

Published Date: 09 January 2009
By John Roberts

TELECOM giant BT is to scrap its charges for 0870 and 0845 numbers at the centre of a row over public services profiting from them.

Calls to these numbers from a BT landline currently costs 5.8p per a minute but from next week they be included free of charge in customers' call packages.

However, campaigners opposed to the use of high-cost numbers dismissed the move as insignificant as it does not apply to 0844 or 0871 numbers – which are used by many GPs.

Organisations using numbers which begin with 0870, 0871, 0844 or 0845 can share the extra revenue made with the calls provider. More than 200 GPs surgeries and three hospitals in Yorkshire have been criticised for using these numbers which can cost significantly more than normal local calls.

BT announced yesterday that it will scrap its charges for all 0870 and 0845 numbers, which will cost the company £24m.

As well as public services, 0870 and 0845 numbers are also regularly used by banks, building societies and insurance firms.

BT said it was the first UK telephone company to make the numbers free, adding that some competitors charged up to 10p a minute for a daytime 0870 call.

However, campaigners say the BT move will have no significant effect as it does not apply to 0844 numbers – used by more than 50 doctor's surgeries in West Yorkshire and Wakefield-based Mid Yorkshire NHS Trust.

The saynoto0870.com group also claim that 0845 numbers will not be free and will continue to create revenue with money paid from an increased BT rental charge instead of an extra charge for each individual call.

Group spokesman Dave Lindsay, of Doncaster, said: "Even for BT customers these calls will not be free. They will only be covered by the increased charge paid for an inclusive package.

"If this announcement is mistakenly used to make use of 0845 numbers appear more acceptable, this will severely disadvantage the poor who are unable to rent a BT landline and have to use pay-as-you-go mobiles to contact NHS Direct and others, and thereby suffer a greater surcharge on top of higher charges for all calls."

John Petter, managing director of BT's consumer business, said: "We know that the public is frustrated by having to pay higher charges for these numbers, even though BT's rates were cheaper than our rivals, so we worked out a way to go further and include calls to 0870 and 0845 numbers in our call packages.

"These numbers are widely used by banks, utilities and even NHS Direct, and our customers spend 30 minutes a month on average calling these numbers. We hope we have taken a sting out of the price of these calls, but also removed one of those irritations that customers believed was an unfair anomaly."

Which? Magazine last year named and shamed companies and public bodies using these numbers.

Now it has renewed calls for high-cost helplines to be scrapped.

The magazine's principal researcher, Ceri Stanaway, said: "Which? has long said that customers should not have to dial expensive numbers to contact customer service and support helplines, and we're pleased to see that 0845 and 0870 numbers will now be included in BT call packages.

"But there will still be lots of people that don't use BT for their phone calls, or BT customers who have to make an 0870 call that isn't covered by a call plan. These people, plus anyone who rings helplines on 0844 or 0871 numbers, will still often be paying far too much for the privilege."

derrick wrote on Jan 10^th, 2009 at 12:05pm:

To do this, would you not need another line as well, therefore incurring a second line rental? How can you call yourself on the same line? When I do this I get the engaged tone.

I would do it by redirecting my 0870 number to a VoIP line that I have a geographical number for. No need to pay additional line rental!

jrawle wrote on Jan 10^th, 2009 at 1:22pm:

derrick wrote on Jan 10th, 2009 at 12:05pm: To do this, would you not need another line as well, therefore incurring a second line rental? How can you call yourself on the same line? When I do this I get the engaged tone. I would do it by redirecting my 0870 number to a VoIP line that I have a geographical number for. No need to pay additional line rental!

Don't think that is how SCV suggested it!

Detials of this deal are now on the BT website, and they've added a fair use policy:
http://www.productsandservices.bt.com/consumerProducts/displayTopic.do?topicId=25502


Quote:

Fair use policy applies – max. 1,000 mins or 150 calls a month. If either of these limits on free calls is exceeded, BT will charge for these calls until further notice.

Funny how that didn't make it into the press release, isn't it?

I still can't find anywhere what the cost to call 0845 or 0870 will be for customers outside of times they receive inclusive calls (or after they've had their "fair use" allowance).

Presumably, for 0845, it'll be 7p 'call set-up fee' + 2p/minute daytime and ½p/minute evenings/nights and, for 0870, it'll be 7p 'call set-up fee' + 6p/minute daytime and 1½p/minute evenings/nights as it is now.

Heinz wrote on Jan 11^th, 2009 at 8:46am:

Presumably, for 0845, it'll be 7p 'call set-up fee' + 2p/minute daytime and ½p/minute evenings/nights and, for 0870, it'll be 7p 'call set-up fee' + 6p/minute daytime and 1½p/minute evenings/nights as it is now.

Presumably, yes. But not necessarily. Perhaps part of BT's strategy to claw back the money it's costing them might be to increase the costs for those not on calling plans - the 0845 charges in particular, which are currently lower cost than calls to 01 numbers!

I believe that the huge danger of this move by BT (which none of you seem to have spotted so far) is that it will now very considerably muddy the waters over the need for all public sector organisations who use 0845 and 0870 numbers to replace them with 03 numbers.  For instance one can foresee DVLA, HMRC etc, etc now saying they no longer have any plans to get 03 numbers as most BT customers can call these numbers free of charge if they actually want to by getting the appropriate BT calling plan.

Even though doctors and many important private sector call centres use 0844 and 0871  and not 0845 and 0870 the media seem sufficiently stupid and numerically illiterate to want to be blind about the continued problems here and thus the abusing call centres (including doctors) will just take the line that the whole problem is now solved and so will not get replacement 03 numbers.

I suspect BT's major motive here is actually to further sell its Anytime Call Plan and to make phone customers in non LLU phone areas (where BT's competitors like TalkTalk, Tiscali and Sky cannot offer a very compelling package) consider moving back to BT from CPS and WLR products with competitors to benefit from the free 084 and 087 calls.  I do not see how TalkTalk or Tiscali etc can follow suit in offering these 0845 and 0870 calls free in LLU areas because they are already operating on wafer thing margins of which the very high profit covert premium rate 084/7 revenue stream is surely a vital part.  If they include 084/7 calls then TalkTalk for instance would have to considerably raise the price of its bundled broadband and phone call packages.

From the point of view of this campaign I unfortunately see this move by BT not as a great victory for our campaign (the great victory would have been all 084/7 calls being pushed on to 09 with full disclosure and a complete ban on their use in the public sector) but as a way for BT to make the media ever more confused about what our campaign is about.  Then meanwhile other parts of BT will seek to reduce the cost of its free 0845 and 0870 calls by continuing to migrate as many large call centres as it possibly can (that it provides the lines for) to 0844 and 0871.

This move by BT is very dangerous for the successful rollout and implementation of 03 numbers and of course all the while more and more calls are moving to 0844 and 0871 numbers where the ripoff will continue, even for BT customers.  But one can see how the woolly thinking at NHS Direct is likely to now go regarding the need to replace their 0845 number with an 03 phone number following this move by BT.

So the great danger is the public and the media may now wrongly think the 084/7 scam has ended and then call them with impunity on their mobiles only to find the scam very much alive and kicking.  Meanwhile many important public sector call centres using 0845 or 0870 may shelve or put on ice their plans to adopt 03 numbers as a result of BT's move.  So all ways round unfortunately this is not the positive outcome for our campaign that it might at first appear but is instead simply another example of dirty tricks by BT that will make it much harder to bring 084/7 abuses to an early end while making BT look like good guys by hiding from media attention their many other new abuses such as huge per call setup fees for the many customers only on their weekend calls plan..............

NGMsGhost wrote on Jan 11^th, 2009 at 3:49pm:

I believe that the huge danger of this move by BT (which none of you seem to have spotted so far) is that it will now very considerably muddy the waters over the need for all public sector organisations who use 0845 and 0870 numbers to replace them with 03 numbers.

I am sure that we are agreed on this point, and have done all we can to clear the mud.


SilentCallsVictim wrote on Jan 8^th, 2009 at 3:05pm:

Those with Midlands connections may be interested to know that BBC Radio WM are planning to cover this story on their "Drivetime" show at around 5:35 this afternoon.

Links to a recording of this item and other media coverage, as well as comment, are found here.

It should be noted that in the West Midlands SHA area there are twice as many GPs using 0845 as 0844; whereas in all other areas, and overall, 0845 is the minority. This explains the decision to use limited time to focus on issues other than the omission of 0844 in the Radio WM piece.

BT's apparent lack of consistency in making 0845 and 0870 calls free at certain times for those who take call packages from it on residential landlines while still charging them as being premium rate calls (with a small p) elsewhere is best demonstrated by the very high charges still levied to call 0845 and 0870 numbers from a BT Public Payphone.

BT's own Public Payphone tarriff (see www.serviceview.bt.com/list/public/current/Call_Charges_boo/3545_d0e5.htm#3545-d0e5) shows that BT charges 19.48p per minute after a 20p connection fee to call an 0844, 0845 or 0870 number while it only charges 1p per minute to call a number starting 01, 02 or 03 on top of its 20p connection fee.  As the minimum call charge from a BT Payphone is 40p this means that 40p buys you only about 63 seconds of call time to an 0844, 0845 of 0870 phone number but 20 minutes of call time to a number starting 01, 02 or 03.  Also once the 20 minutes is up to an 01, 02 or 03 number the call continues at only 1p per minute but to an 0844, 0845 or 0870 number the call will have cost you 19.48p per minute from the 64th second of the call onwards.  So a 20 minute call to an 0844, 0845 or 0870 number from a BT Payphone will cost £4.10 rather than the 40p to a number starting 01, 02 or 03.

It seems bizarre that BT charges precisely the same charges (high though they are) to 0844 on a BT public payphone as they do for 0845 and 0870 but yet on a landline includes the 0845 and 0870 numbers in inclusive call packages but does not include 0844.  This contrasts with BT Payphones where only 0871 numbers are singled out for their higher still near extortion level charge of a whopping 96.7p per minute or £19.55 for a 20 minute phone call.

All of this seems to me to show that BT is not now charging for calls to 084 and 087 prefixed phone numbers from BT public payphones or residential landlines in a way that actually reflects a fair markup on its real underlying costs but is instead either using calls to these numbers either as a massive loss leader (for residential landline call package customers calling 0845 or 0870) or as a source of unfair monopolistic profits that do not in any way reflects its real additional costs in carrying the calls (BT Payphone charges to 0844, 0845, 0870 and especially 0871) compared to calls to geographic phone numbers from those same BT public payphones.

BT's continued abuse of the calling public needing to call 084 and 087 prefixed phone numbers from BT Payphones while they actually charge a lower weekday daytime per minute charge (subject to the 40 minimum call charge) to call 01, 02 and 03 prefixed numbers than on residential landlines (for calls where customers pay per call in the weekday daytime) needs to be challenged as it seems to be based on anti competitive pricing rather than on economics or a fair mark up on the underlying wholesale cost of those 0844, 0845, 0870 and 0871 calls.

Look at this article in a GPs' magazine (comment from a familiar name noted):
http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=23&storycode=4121599&c=2

The lead says it all:

Quote:

BT has scrapped call charges for 0845 and 0870 numbers in a move which could ease pressure on GPs to ditch their 084 numbers.

Note the careful wording: charges to 0845 scrapped means reduced pressure for GPs to ditch 084 numbers.

This article, in a medical profession publication, gives away the fact that GPs will be delighted now, as although the numbers they use will not be free, they know that many patients will be fooled into believing 0844 numbers are no longer bad, so the nice little earner can continue unhindered.

jrawle wrote on Jan 11^th, 2009 at 8:15pm:

Look at this article in a GPs' magazine (comment from a familiar name noted): http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=23&storycode=4121599&c=2 The lead says it all: Quote: BT has scrapped call charges for 0845 and 0870 numbers in a move which could ease pressure on GPs to ditch their 084 numbers. Note the careful wording: charges to 0845 scrapped means reduced pressure for GPs to ditch 084 numbers.

You will note that there is a section under the article for Readers Comments and that one particular reader of their website has already submitted some Readers Comments.  I have also submitted some Comments to this website but they have not yet been published as they have still to be approved by the editor.

Now as I was just a little critical of the article and of GPs in the way that perhaps only I know how perhaps my comments may not be  published but there would be no harm in you also becoming a registered user of this website and also trying to submit some comments of your own too. ;)

jrawle wrote on Jan 11^th, 2009 at 8:15pm:

Look at this article in a GPs' magazine (comment from a familiar name noted): http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=23&storycode=4121599&c=2 The lead says it all: Quote: BT has scrapped call charges for 0845 and 0870 numbers in a move which could ease pressure on GPs to ditch their 084 numbers. Note the careful wording: charges to 0845 scrapped means reduced pressure for GPs to ditch 084 numbers. This article, in a medical profession publication, gives away the fact that GPs will be delighted now, as although the numbers they use will not be free, they know that many patients will be fooled into believing 0844 numbers are no longer bad, so the nice little earner can continue unhindered.

Indeed. There is a crucial difference between 0844 and 0845 numbers which means that the "pressure" is still fully on those with 0844 numbers. That is not to say it is reduced for those with 0845 numbers, unless a supplementary question on a "customer satisfaction survey" from a surgery was "are you on an all-inclusive BT calling plan?" and the results showed 100% of patients are.

The BT pricing point on 0844 numbers is chosen by the terminating telephone company. In the case of many GPs, it is Opal Telecom, a part of Carphone Warehouse. To include this in a package, originating telephone companies like BT and Virgin Media would have to stand to a termination charge of almost 5ppm, rather than 0.3ppm for geographical calls. Last I heard, these were not registered charities.

Dave wrote on Jan 11^th, 2009 at 8:33pm:

The BT pricing point on 0844 numbers is chosen by the terminating telephone company. In the case of many GPs, it is Opal Telecom, a part of Carphone Warehouse. To include this in a package, originating telephone companies like BT and Virgin Media would have to stand to a termination charge of almost 5ppm, rather than 0.3ppm for geographical calls. Last I heard, these were not registered charities.

But despite this BT Payphones still manage to charge 0844 numbers at precisely the same ripoff 20p per minute rate as 0845 and 0870 numbers suggesting some parts of BT think that they are in fact all one and the same thing.  By contrast 01, 02, 03 numbers are only charged at 1p per minute from a Payphone and only 0871 numbers are singled out for being charged at a different and far, far higher rate still (nearly £1 per minute).

So it seems that not all divisions of BT are in fact talking to one another when it comes to their strategy on 084/7 call pricing. ;)

Further to all of the above I am led to believe that BT are actively encouraging their business customers who use 0870 and 0845 numbers to note that they will no longer be getting payments for these geographic numbers and accordingly is advising them to change to 0871 or 0844 numbers.  

In one fell swoop BT have overtly portayed their company as doing a marvelous job for their private customer base by offering a reduction on the cost to dial 0870 and 0845 numbers but are working with their business customers to move away from them.

Another nice bit of business by BT.

vectra wrote on Jan 11^th, 2009 at 10:51pm:

Further to all of the above I am led to believe that BT are actively encouraging their business customers who use 0870 and 0845 numbers to note that they will no longer be getting payments for these geographic numbers and accordingly is advising them to change to 0871 or 0844 numbers.

So as it is hoped/likely that revenue payments will cease on 0870 in particular, do you think that providers (not just BT) should continue selling them on the basis of being revenue sharing? If companies want a revenue sharing number then they should have one and that is the point of 0844/0871. If they don't, then they should go with 03.

vectra wrote on Jan 11^th, 2009 at 10:51pm:

In one fell swoop BT have overtly portayed their company as doing a marvelous job for their private customer base by offering a reduction on the cost to dial 0870 and 0845 numbers but are working with their business customers to move away from them.

With 0870 in particular, BT has probably preempted what will be an industry-wide change.

vectra wrote on Jan 11^th, 2009 at 10:51pm:

Further to all of the above I am led to believe that BT are actively encouraging their business customers who use 0870 and 0845 numbers to note that they will no longer be getting payments for these geographic numbers and accordingly is advising them to change to 0871 or 0844 numbers.   In one fell swoop BT have overtly portayed their company as doing a marvelous job for their private customer base by offering a reduction on the cost to dial 0870 and 0845 numbers but are working with their business customers to move away from them.

This is indeed precisely what dishonest BT are up to.  They make out how they are doing consumers such a great favour letting them use 0870 and 0845 in call packages but have deliberately waited until they have managed to migrate numerous main call centres on to 0844 and 0871 before offering this deal.  And meanwhile 40% of calls are now on mobiles where the consumer is still ripped off more than ever on NTS, even on 0845 and 0870.  Not to mention BT's huge extra revenue source from more than doubling its minimum call charge for residential customers on any calls that are not part of call packages over the last two years.

By the way welcome to the forum. My apologies that our forum moderator (Dave) seems to have failed to welcome you or congratulate you on your highly perceptive comments in your maiden forum post.

vectra wrote on Jan 11^th, 2009 at 10:51pm:

... they will no longer be getting payments for these geographic numbers

I suspect, like with the title of this section of the forum, you meant to say "non-geographic".

(You may see that whilst we welcome newbies, we expect very high standards.) ;)

[P.S. I see that whilst I was preparing the original posting, you actually got away with this]

The point you make was borne out by my experience on Friday, when a BT sales rep was adamant that the end of revenue sharing on 0870 had been announced by Ofcom and was expected to come into effect any day now.

The reasons for BT's dislike of 0845 are also covered earlier in this thread, however there is no basis whatsoever for pretending that the revenue sharing is about to end.

[Further P.S.]

On the broader issues - I see no reason not to welcome what BT has done, for what it is. It may actually speed up the death of 0870 and help us to draw attention to the remaining issues with 0844, 0871 and 0845, on the basis that there is no such thing as bad publicity. We must however continue to do all we can to ensure that the implications of this change are not misunderstood.

Perhaps next Friday would be a good day for someone on the BT Evening and Weekends plan to call their GP during surgery hours on a 0845 number, and then discover that the call was not free!

Dave wrote on Jan 11^th, 2009 at 11:11pm:

With 0870 in particular, BT has probably preempted what will be an industry-wide change.

Is this so that they can then stop some of these number users (eg DVLA) moving to 03 and hence leave 0870 in situ within call packages so that consumers are then more easily conned in to ringing 0871 numbers without realising that this is still premium rate. :o >:( :'(

Meanwhile 03 fails to takeoff  thus further confusing the consumer about which numbers it is and is not safe to call.  Just as BT intended all along. >:( >:( >:(

NGMsGhost wrote on Jan 11^th, 2009 at 11:17pm:

03 fails to takeoff ...  Just as BT intended all along.

I noted the three frowns, but I think these comments need a fuller explanation if they are intended to be taken seriously.

What is the unusually high expectation against which 03 can be said not to have taken off?

As BT Wholesale makes money out of 03 numbers without any of the adverse publicity that it suffers with 0845, how could it not wish its efforts in marketing 03 numbers used by the Police service to succeed?

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Jan 11^th, 2009 at 11:36pm:

What is the unusually high expectation against which 03 can be said not to have taken off?

The expectation would have otherwise been that all government contact centres like HMRC, NHS Direct and DVLA would eventually be required to move to 03.  This would almost certainly have happened had it not been for BT's recent deliberate efforts to muddy the waters first on 0845 daytime call pricing and now on 0845 and 0870 being included in their call packages.


Quote:

As BT Wholesale makes money out of 03 numbers without any of the adverse publicity that it suffers with 0845, how could it not wish its efforts in marketing 03 numbers used by the Police service to succeed?

BT make far less money on 03 than on even 0845, not to mention far, far less than on 0844, 0870 and 0871.  Thus the more they can do to stop the morally virtuous branding of 03 prefixed contact centres becoming the norm and to allow confusion between now inclusive 0845 and 0870 calls but non inclusive 0844 and 0871 calls to be continued the more the likelihood the public will continue to be conned in to calling 0844 and 0871 so making BT terminated calls lots of money because the public wrongly now think the numbers are part of call packages like 0845 and 0870 now are.

I find it remarkable that I should still need to spell all this out to you SCV when I should have thought what was going on was perfectly obvious to anyone with long time exposure to this campaign.

You will note that Ofcom is even now attempting to allow the 070 PNS con on which the Patientline system depends to remain in place despite having earlier promised they would have to move to the 06 number range.  It is at the absolute heart of the whole NTS hidden money making machine presided over by OfCoN that the public should be totally confused about what phone number prefixes are connected with any given call tariff.

By the way they weren't three frown emoticons but three angry emoticons.  Try hovering your mouse cursor over them and it should give you the description.

NGMsGhost wrote on Jan 11^th, 2009 at 11:55pm:

The expectation would have otherwise been that all government contact centres like HMRC, NHS Direct and DVLA would eventually be required to move to 03.

Is it not a little soon to assume that the already lengthy process of achieving this change has been halted as a result of some modest changes by BT?


NGMsGhost wrote on Jan 11^th, 2009 at 11:55pm:

BT make far less money on 03 than on even 0845, not to mention far, far less than on 0844, 0870 and 0871.

I am happy to bow to superior knowledge on this matter. I am not aware of how much BT Wholesale takes out of the termination fees it receives, or its charging structure for renting out revenue sharing numbers. I know that there have been complaints about the high charges for renting 03 numbers, but I have no idea what they are, nor how these compare with costs or the relative income from revenue sharing numbers.



NGMsGhost wrote on Jan 11^th, 2009 at 11:55pm:

I find it remarkable that I should still need to spell all this out to you SCV when I should have thought what was going on was perfectly obvious to anyone with long time exposure to this campaign.

Despite having recently acquired the ill-deserved status of "Supreme Member", I have still not come to believe that all commerce is bound to be based solely on deliberate deceit, except when practiced by one's friends. If one starts from that assumption, it is not difficult to find evidence that may be interpreted and presented to support that view, as if it were an "obvious" conclusion.



NGMsGhost wrote on Jan 11^th, 2009 at 11:55pm:

the 070 PNS con on which the Patientline system depends

The 070 business is an unforgiveable mess. Does not the further formal relaxation of the prohibition of use of mobiles in hospitals however signal the ultimate demise of the Patientline telephone system?

This is no credit to Ofcom and other scams will doubtless remain, as will always be the case, but is it not a step forward?

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Jan 12^th, 2009 at 12:50am:

The 070 business is an unforgiveable mess. Does not the further formal relaxation of the prohibition of use of mobiles in hospitals however signal the ultimate demise of the Patientline telephone system? This is no credit to Ofcom and other scams will doubtless remain, as will always be the case, but is it not a step forward?

By why is OfCoN after three years now completely reneging on its earlier commitment to move 070 numbers to 06, even though they should have been moved to 09.  They have completely ignored all their own original arguments and now seem to say that the scammers are struggling to make as much money as they once did so there should now be no regulatory impediment to the smooth course of the activities of the scammers.

Regarding commerce I never said all of it was characterised by scams or illicit activity.  It is purely the telecoms sector and the culture of non transparency in pricing to the consumer that has allowed all of these excuses to expand and develop to their current disgraceful levels.

NGMsGhost wrote on Jan 12^th, 2009 at 1:13am:

By why is OfCoN after three years now completely reneging on its earlier commitment to move 070 numbers to 06, even though they should have been moved to 09.

I regret that I have not taken the time to look into this matter closely enough to answer the question. If I owe an apology for having put too much time of my free time into other matters, then please consider it delivered.


NGMsGhost wrote on Jan 12^th, 2009 at 1:13am:

Regarding commerce I never said all of it was characterised by scams or illicit activity.  It is purely the telecoms sector ...

One does not have to look very far to find other sectors that are more fundamentally flawed in this way. Financial Services and IT come swiftly to mind. That does not however mean that all who work in these sectors deliberately set out to decieve.

I do appologise if this point has been made before, I have not at the moment got time to read through all postings on this subject.  I do not understand in detail how the non-geographic numbering system works, only that it costs a lot more to use.  From my interest in this site I have gleaned that BT appear to control the cost of non-geo numbers, presumably because part of a call to such numbers is accessed over the BT system, although I am not clear on this.  If this is the case it would appear that they have an unfair advantage over other telephone providers and are able to waive charges to 0845/0870 numbers.  Other telecoms providers are not in this position and perhaps this should be reported to the Competition Commission.  (Is this another organisation similar to Ofcon?)  I am also unsure  how revenue share on 0845/0870 will be paid?  Will BT absorb these costs, if not who will retain these numbers? A swift exit to 0844/0871 appears guaranteed.    

Strange to relate but I've just had an email from Virgin Media saying they're increasing the cost of calling 0870/0845 numbers:

0845 and 0870 numbers – calls to 0845 numbers will be charged at 6.85p per minute, with calls to 0870 numbers costing 9.79p per minute. The connection charge for both these types of numbers will now be 9.79p.

Now that's why I never use Virgin for landline calls. Only ever use them for my free evening and weekend calls.

Yep, just had the same e-mail, (and like you I never use them for chargeable calls); -


"If you sometimes make calls outside of your Virgin Media Talk package, from 3rd February 2009 there will be some changes to the way these calls are charged.

Daytime calls – if you make calls from 6am to 6pm to UK landlines (numbers beginning 01, 02 and 03), from 3rd February they’ll cost 4.4p per minute.


Evening and weekend calls – calls to UK landlines (numbers beginning 01, 02 and 03) outside of your included evening and weekend calls, will also be charged at 4.4p per minute.


International calls – these rates are also changing. For example, a daytime call to France will now cost 32.3p per minute.


0845 and 0870 numbers – calls to 0845 numbers will be charged at 6.85p per minute, with calls to 0870 numbers costing 9.79p per minute. [highlight]The connection charge for both these types of numbers will now be 9.79p.[/highlight]

Just so you know, the connection charge for any chargeable calls you make (excluding calls to 0845 and 0870 numbers, which are listed above, and premium rate numbers) will now be 7.82p.

Don’t forget…
These price changes only affect calls that you make outside of your call package. Calls included in your Talk plan aren’t chargeable for the first 59 minutes. So, if you've got more to catch up on after that, just hang up and redial the person you're calling to keep chatting for the next 59 minutes. Simple!

Kind regards

The Virgin Media team


P.S. VAT… we’re onto it!
The new VAT rate of 15% has been applied to all our new call rates. To find out more about what the VAT reduction means for you, just check out the Customer Zone."

With all these VAT changes resulting in connection fees like 9.79p and other similar charges being fractions of pennies, who's betting that the charge isn't infact 10p anyway (in most cases) because of rounding?

This change by Virginmedia is, in fact, being made with exactly the same purpose as that by BT - to encourage more customers to subscribe to inclusive packages.

Although the phrase "will be charged" is used in relation to 0845 and 0870, these charges have not changed since the VAT adjustment in December. As predicted, Virginmedia has not been able to respond to the move by BT as it suffers the full cost of supporting the revenue share on these numbers.

---

The breakeven point for the XL (anytime) package is only 15 standard landline calls a month, assuming an average duration of 10 minutes, or 26 with an average of 5 minutes. When comparing with BT, it should be noted that those with cable TV have their telephone line rental including in their TV subscription.

There are no announced changes to the "Call Anywhere" packages which enable packages of call minutes to mobile, revenue sharing and standard landline numbers to be pre-paid at the follow rates: 200 @ 4.5p, 400 @ 4.25p, 800 @ 3.625p.

---

There are two relevant changes in respect of non-geographic numbers.

1. Presumably the increase, from 7p to 8p (disregarding the temporary VAT decrease), in the standard connection charge will apply to calls to 0844 numbers. These are (obviously) not included in the packages and so this is a simple price rise for everyone (including those who call their GPs on these numbers).

2. As more customers are drawn into subscribing to the inclusive packages (with BT also), the differential cost of calling revenue sharing numbers increases. Apart from any absolute increase, this also increases what BT refers to as the "sting" felt when calling revenue sharing numbers (- BT has only removed it for package subscribers).

It is this "sting" that is the issue behind the campaign, and it is getting sharper.

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Jan 14^th, 2009 at 5:45pm:

As predicted, Virginmedia has not been able to respond to the move by BT as it suffers the full cost of supporting the revenue share on these numbers...

I agree it's hard for VM to make these calls inclusive because VM wont terminate as many 0845/0870 calls on their own network unlike BT.  However, it doesn't mean that VM cant reduce the cost of calling 0845/0870 numbers because right now VM are making a fortune from carrying these two calls because of they charge a highly inflated ppm (and it now appears a increase in connection charge as well).

bbb_uk wrote on Jan 14^th, 2009 at 6:16pm:

it doesn't mean that VM cant reduce the cost of calling 0845/0870 numbers because right now VM are making a fortune from carrying these two calls because of they charge a highly inflated ppm (and it now appears a increase in connection charge as well).

The connection charge for 0845 and 0870 is not being changed tomorow.

I agree with the point about the excessive level of surcharge, which applies to other providers as well. Although the impact is seen together, there are two quite separate points here.

The first, which I focus on, is the use of revenue sharing numbers causing callers to incur some degree of additional cost to the benefit of the person called. That is unacceptable in many situations (e.g. the NHS, public services in general and in commerce when undeclared) whatever the level of the surcharge. The point of principle remains unchanged no matter how much the level may fall.

The second point is that many operators appear to be profiteering by having surcharges well in excess of the amount paid over to the call receiver. In a competitive market, prices for the most-used services will be cut to the bone, whereas prices for items less commonly used as comparitors are not under the same pressure. One may find innumerable examples of this in other markets. I cannot say how far this argument could be used as a defence against allegations of profiteering on calls to revenue sharing numbers, as my understanding of the economics of the industry is not up to it.

My gut feel is that there probably is some profiteering, however I focus my campaigning efforts on the first point, as I see it as a relatively "easy win". The second is more difficult and can be wrongly confused with the first.

Well I haven't been here for a while, I heard the news on the radio today and thought I'd post here 1st, yeah right, ha ha.

However, some of the times where you can get free calls to these numbers still aren't justified when normal businesses are (for arguments sake) 09:00 - 17:00, so you will have to call at a time when you will be charged.

As to people using other services, i.e. Virgin, Tiscali etc. I was once with Eurobell and, to cut a long story short, had to call customer sevices which was free until they were bought out by Telewest, I was then transfered to another "supplier" (I forget their name now) but it then cost 50p per minute, but when the bill arrived it had been charged at 75p per minute.

During the course of trying to reclaim my money, that was the 25p a minute extra (incidentally Eurobell / Telewest refunded the 50p per minute) & other enquiries, I was told that the 50p per minute was only if it was via BT and I was told that if I dialled (I think it was 1870), that it didn't matter who you used for your phone calls, provided you were paying BT for the line rental that it would be routed via BT and would appear on your bill along with the line rental charge.

The guy who mentioned this said that this info would be handy for when you see ads on telly stating that a call (on a BT line) would cost ? per minute, and using this number would not incur higher charges that other providers set.

I don't know if this info will be any good for people using providers that still use BT for providing a line, and I'm sorry that I can't remember the exact number, but I'm sure there is someone here who could find out these details.

It may be another route for people to get these calls free (by finding that number), whether they have a package or not.

A few comments and suggestions for some new sites.

It's no fun using 0871, close the door on 0844, it just won't do on 0872.

One last gripe, 0800 should be a free phone number even from a mobile in my opinion, my breakdown service for my car is an 0800 numbers, but if I break down in the middle of nowhere where there isn't a payphone, it's either walk however far to get the free phone call, or pay through the nose because I  have had to use my mobile.

As that is a pay as you go phone, I could run out of credit before I actually get through to someone to tell them where I am, imagine your wife and children in that scenario!

This is taken from the current information shown about BT's Together call plans at:-

www.productsandservices.bt.com/consumerProducts/displayCategory.do;JSESSIONID_ecommerce=J0QfFjC3f66ynGf35KmLMQdl0QPbKnhtQbtTZyQZLYVknhpdR95n!1613370232?categoryId=CON-HOME-PHN-R1


Quote:

Pricing. All prices quoted include VAT. Line rental is £10.27 a month with Direct Debit and paper-free billing (£11.25 from 1st April). Otherwise add £2.73 a month (£2.75 from 1st April) (£1.50 payment processing fee levied by BT Payment Services Limited, a BT Group company, plus £1.23 without paper-free billing discount). Discount appears as a bill credit. Set up paper-free billing online at www.bt.com/paperfree.

So it appears that aside from zapping up the minimum connection fee for chargeable calls to 12p per call to pay for "free" 0845 and 0870 calls that BT is also making its customers pay for it by increasing line rental by another 9.5% (98p) per month.

Yet as usual Ofcom sits there and does nothing and assures us that BT is not behaving anti competitively :o >:( :'(

Had BT simply made calls to 0845/0870 zero fee where inclusive 01/02/03 elements apply, it would be likely to reduce the outpayment in termination charges to the TCPs when it is recalculated. As we know, TCPs cry foul when termination charges are reduced. We have seen this with mobile and 0870 ones.

By increasing the connection charge, the blow has been lessoned for TCPs. Or maybe there is no blow and termination payments will be increased...who knows.

The main purpose of this thread is the inclusion of 0845 and 0870, but it does of course also benefit BT where 01/02/03 calls are chargeable.


The key point is that 0845 and 0870 will NEVER be truly inclusive to the degree which geographical and 03 calls are.

Dave wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 10:42pm:

The key point is that 0845 and 0870 will NEVER be truly inclusive to the degree which geographical and 03 calls are.

Yes but do you think either the media or the government departments who still use 084/7 will ever understand this based on the way the media just basically fully wrote up BT's glossy PR spin on this matter with very little in the way of any analytical or perceptive commentary about what BT was actually up to. :(

NGMsGhost wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 10:52pm:

Dave wrote on Jan 19th, 2009 at 10:42pm: The key point is that 0845 and 0870 will NEVER be truly inclusive to the degree which geographical and 03 calls are. Yes but do you think either the media or the government departments who still use 084/7 will ever understand this based on the way the media just basically fully wrote up BT's glossy PR spin on this matter with very little in the way of any analytical or perceptive commentary about what BT was actually up to. :(

The media has yet to get into such in depth analysis yet but many MPs are becoming aware of these issues.

Dave wrote on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 10:49pm:

The media has yet to get into such in depth analysis yet but many MPs are becoming aware of these issues.

But other than ask the same old Parliamentary questions those worthy backbenchers don't seem to be getting anywhere as the scammers actually seem to enjoy covert yet highly active support from both ministers and the civil servants who entered in to these ripoff deals.

NGMsGhost wrote on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 11:06pm:

Dave wrote on Jan 20th, 2009 at 10:49pm: The media has yet to get into such in depth analysis yet but many MPs are becoming aware of these issues. But other than ask the same old Parliamentary questions those worthy backbenchers don't seem to be getting anywhere as the scammers actually seem to enjoy covert yet highly active support from both ministers and the civil servants who entered in to these ripoff deals.

I am not sure why you put so much effort into posting on these forums when you evidently believe it will achieve diddly squat. :-/

Dave wrote on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 11:10pm:

I am not sure why you put so much effort into posting on these forums when you evidently believe it will achieve diddly squat. :-/

Because the deviousness of the scams and the cynicism of those who run them in endlessly changing the goal posts to avoid the scams being closed down still annoys me intensely and repeatedly.  Also if you will recall I was one of the very earliest people in the UK to spot this scam back in the late 1990s (I believe I spotted it along with dorf long before you ever took an interest in such matters as on your own admission you only became aware of the issue when BT itself stopped charging 0845 and 0870 calls at local and national rate for BT Standard customers) and corresponded with both the CEO of BT and the CEO of OFTEL about it.  I thought I would be pushing at an open door with the regulators to bring the anomalous charging of what were then 0990 and 0345 numbers to an end only to discover that the regulators were in bed with the telecoms industry as they have remained ever since.  The abusive attitude of senior personnel at OFTEL on the matter and their total contempt for the consumer was a very rude shock to me at the time.

So long as the telco scammers enjoy the clear tacit support of the regulators and of government ministers (many of whom have chums running some of the biggest 084/7 abusing companies) then I fear that the tremendous and commendable efforts invested in the campaign, by both you and SCV for instance, will only achieve very modest actual returns.  If the political establishment was on our side, rather than resisting us all the way, then we would have swept these establishment endorsed telecoms scams away a very long time ago.  The situation with 084/7 is the same sad situation as with Equitable Life pensioners.  The moral highground is on their side but sadly New Labour ministers are not.  And like 084/7 the latest apparent concession to Equitable Life pensioners is largely just a hollow New Labour sham that will not lead to any compensation payments for 95% of them.  It is yet more New Labour playing for time to appear to be listening while doing nothing.

Also have I not responded to many Ofcom consultations and not also researched a fair few alternate numbers and added them to this website.  It is not as though I only complain about the scams but never take any action against them.

Also where were you to be found Dave when the time came to help Derrick at the Information Tribunal I wonder?  And where was Daniel to be found?  In fact where is Daniel ever to be found other than collecting his monthly cheque from GrabAGrand and other such sites for the latest set of monthly click thru ad revenue? :o :'(

NGMsGhost wrote on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 11:32pm:

The situation with 084/7 is the same sad situation as with Equitable Life pensioners.  The moral highground is on their side but sadly New Labour ministers are not.  And like 084/7 the latest apparent concession to Equitable Life pensioners is largely just a hollow New Labour sham that will not lead to any compensation payments for 95% of them.  It is yet more New Labour playing for time to appear to be listening while doing nothing.

Equitable Life pensioners? Is that really something to do with this topic?

Any independent financial advisor could have predicted problems there. I even decided against it myself after asking a simple question and being treated like an idiot by the salesman. Years later it became apparent my question had been very pertinent indeed.

But I really doubt you'd be able to drum up your habitual allegations of corrupt conflicts of interest here. Many public sector pension funds were with the company.

Your paranoia that New Labour are running telecoms companies to do you down does seem rather unfounded. They are the ones who seem to have introduced actual competition to this market, and standard long-distance UK landline call rates have consequently dropped from 8 pence a minute to under a penny, while calls to foreign destinations have fallen even more. In early 1995 I called a friend in Scandinavia and spent £20 on the call; now it wouldn't cost me anything at all

andy9 wrote on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 11:51pm:

Equitable Life pensioners? Is that really something to do with this topic?

Yes it has everything to do wih it as it represents another failure by a regulator under the New Labour government to protect the interests of UK citizen consumers and also the failure of the New Labour government to take those regulators to task for those failures.

Its terribly convenient for Dave that you should be on hand just when needed isn't it andy9 after months of not posting and after almost no previous participation in this forum thread.

And I'm pretty sure that Dave is also a Labour voter too. ;)

NGMsGhost wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 12:01am:

Yes it has everything to do wih it as it represents another failure by a regulator under the New Labour government to protect the interests of UK citizen consumers and also the failure of the New Labour government to take those regulators to task for those failures. Its terribly convenient for Dave that you should be on hand just when needed isn't it andy9 after months of not posting and after almost no previous participation in this forum thread.

Your distortion of history is amazing

My recollection is that it was a Conservative government in power at the time of my rejection of Equitable Life. And it was that same government's ill-thought out deregulation of financial products that led to spivs selling products with wholly untenable and irresponsible predictions of performance and dodgy advice to opt out of better final salary schemes. Is that by any chance the real reason behind your whinge?

As for the forum, sorry, but nobody needs your crass elitist snobbery about who should be allowed to post on here, or when or where

andy9 wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 12:15am:

Your distortion of history is amazing My recollection is that it was a Conservative government in power at the time of my rejection of Equitable Life. And it was that same government's ill-thought out deregulation of financial products that led to spivs selling products with wholly untenable and irresponsible predictions of performance and dodgy advice to opt out of better final salary schemes. Is that by any chance the real reason behind your whinge?

Well I went along to a meeting between my mother and representatives of Equitable Life some time in 1998 after my father's death about my father's pension with the Society and they were still very much operating as normal then and still claiming that the guaranteed pension rights contracts would have no impact on other parts of the business and were completely separated from them.  That was all still going on under a Labour government and their financial services regulator for which they were responsible.  She finally won her complaint against Equitable Life with the Financial Services Ombudsman and obtained at least some compensation (wholly and utterly inadequate) a few months ago.

You must be a real old school Labourite to still be trying to pin every single possible governmental ill on the Tories nearly 12 years after Labour took power.  It is the Labour government that has decided to leave what it perceives as mainly Tory voters in the lurch while saving Northern Rock and numerous other dodgy banks for many, many multiples in financial terms of the costs of putting things right at Equitable Life.

The Parliamentary Ombudsman's report criticises the current Labour government's actions.........

Back to the main thread of free 0845/0870 numbers.  I have today received my latest letter from BT trying to claw me back into the fold.  Advertises in bold red letters "NEW. Free calls to 0845 and 0870 numbers, no more worrying about how long you're left holding when you call companies like your bank or energy supplier"", below in much smaller black letters , "all evening and weekend".  Probably not a lot of use to most people but a good marketing ploy as I found out.  I had to phone a company using their geographic number (0870 is their advertised number, I used the geo number from this database), and was kept waiting for some time before getting through to the operator.  Complained about time I was kept holding, and was told that calls on 0870 to their company were now free!  My concern is that this is going to be misinterpreted, and I don't think I am alone in thinking this.  

This is being misinterpreted and will continue to be so. We perhaps need to collect up a few horror stories for the media to get the point accross.

The fact that the generous "giveaway" is being dwarfed by the "snatchback" represented by the forthcoming price increases advised in the leaflet accompanying the BT circular letter (copy here) also needs to be picked up on.

Totally agree SCV.  The one good thing that may come from this is that it will highlight the cost of these calls!  Of course BT have probably already sold 0844 and 0871 to all high users so restricting the cost to BT.  Interesting to note that BT in their advert say "say no to 0870"!!!!

redant wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2009 at 12:28pm:

Totally agree SCV.  The one good thing that may come from this is that it will highlight the cost of these calls!  Of course BT have probably already sold 0844 and 0871 to all high users so restricting the cost to BT.  Interesting to note that BT in their advert say "say no to 0870"!!!!

Is this not a registered trade mark to this site?
Are BT in breach of this by using it?
Can the site owners not take action against BT? They certainly would if someone used any of their trademarks!

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2009 at 11:46am:

The fact that the generous "giveaway" is being dwarfed by the "snatchback" represented by the forthcoming price increases advised in the leaflet accompanying the BT circular letter (copy here) also needs to be picked up on.

Hmm. Just read that page.  The only calls we make with BT generaly are actually divert-on-busy calls on the landine.  They are dropping Friends & Family from 1st April, so we lose the 20% discount these get.  Increasing call diversion facility by 79p/month. increasing the call setup charge, increasing the line rental... Total costs will go up far more than we spend on 0870/0845 calls at weeends.

irrelevant wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2009 at 2:18pm:

... They are dropping Friends & Family from 1st April, so we lose the 20% discount these get. ...

What's happening with F&F? The current scheme provides for bigger discounts where calls are charged on a per minute basis. So it is of far more benefit to those who are on the Option 1 Monday to Friday and Option 2 Monday to Friday 6am to 6pm.

So they continue to pull the rug from those who are on lower cost tariffs.

I think F & F from April 1st will be only to mobiles and international calls, at least that is the way I understand it.

From their web site......


Friends & Family

From 1st April 2009 we are re-launching our Friends & Family service. The current discount scheme which reduces the cost of calls to a small number of telephone numbers will no longer apply. However, we are launching Friends & Family Mobile and Friends & Family International which will offer discounts on the cost of all calls that you make to mobile and international numbers. Excludes BT Basic, Light User Scheme and In-Contact Plus customers.

Friends & Family Mobile will be included with the Unlimited Anytime Plan. It will also be available at no extra cost to Unlimited Weekend Plan customers and Evening & Weekend Plan customers signing up for a 12-month renewable contract. Exclusions apply. It will also be available separately for £1.50 per month. With Friends & Family Mobile, calls to UK mobiles will be charged at 7 pence per minute (8p set-up fee applies). If you already take our Mobile Saver product, you will automatically receive the new Friends & Family Mobile product as soon as it becomes available.

Friends & Family International will be available at no additional cost if you sign up to a 12-month renewable contract (exclusions apply) or will be available separately for £1 per month. With Friends & Family International, call charges start from 2.5 pence per minute (8p set-up fee applies). Please see www.bt.com/international for further information about our international rates. If you already take our International Saver product, you will automatically receive the new Friends & Family International product as soon as it becomes available.

Dave wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2009 at 4:45pm:

So they continue to pull the rug from those who are on lower cost tariffs.

That is the way that things are moving at an increasingly fast pace.

Putting aside, for a moment, the fact that BT is increasing its prices by around 10% at a time of recession when general inflation is approaching zero, there is an issue of principle involved.

Would we rather pay for normal telephone service according to the amount that we use it to make calls, or pay a flat fee for having the service available at the times when we may generally be around to use it?

As we move towards the second of these the cost of calling any type of "premium rate" number gets more clearly exposed for what it is. A few extra pence per minute is not likely to stand out on a phone bil. If the only calls that appear are those to the doctor for lots of people, then attempts to pass these off as "local rate" are less likely to succeed.

It will take some time for most people who make daytime calls to move over to "anytime" packages with the various providers, but once they have, the scams will be harder to conceal.

Please do not think that I am applauding BTs price rises or the confusion that is created by its unique ability to treat 0845 and 0870 differently from other providers. I am not saying that this is all to the good, and I recognise that some would think that it is fairer to pay per call minute (I am not finally decided, but am inclined towards the idea of paying a lump sum for a service including receiving and making "normal" calls at the time whn one does so), however there is a general point to be made here about the future of concealed revenue sharing.

The above is only presently strictly relevant to landline-landline calls.

A quick point on friends and family. Even before the coming changes, if one was using the phone to keep in regular touch with one's friends and family the break-even point for an inclusive package at the time when one did so (i.e. evenings or daytime) would be very likely to be reached.

Again, I am not seeking to take up a position on behalf of BT, I am simply offering genuine views on a topic worthy of discussion.

sherbert wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2009 at 5:12pm:

Friends & Family Mobile will be included with the Unlimited Anytime Plan. It will also be available at no extra cost to Unlimited Weekend Plan customers and Evening & Weekend Plan customers signing up for a 12-month renewable contract.

Basically, unless you sign up to a 12month renewable contract then you dont even get F&F mobile (replacement for F&F) for free.  Translated - just means that most people will no longer get F&F at all without paying an extra cost saving BT money!

sherbert wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2009 at 5:12pm:

I think F & F from April 1st will be only to mobiles and international calls, at least that is the way I understand it.

On the same page:
Quote:

Mobile Saver: Mobile Saver is included automatically in the Unlimited Anytime Plan, and will be re-launched as Friends and Family Mobile on 1 April. The price will increase by 4p per month on 1 April, to £1.50 per month. However, Friends & Family Mobile will be available at no extra cost to Unlimited Weekend Plan customers and Evening & Weekend Plan customers signing up for a 12 month renewable contract. Exclusions apply. International Saver: International Saver will be re-launched as Friends and Family International on 1 April. The price will increase by 2p per month on 1 April, to £1 per month. However, Friends & Family International will be available at no additional cost for customers signing up to a 12-month renewable contract (exclusions apply).

So, they are dropping F&F, but renaming two other pre-existing discount schemes as F&F to try and muddy the waters.

More on F & F here....


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1127090/BT-nets-250m-hanging-Friends-amp-Family-discount-scheme.html

I have heard BT has agreed to scrap charges for 0845 numbers from this month.  Does this only appy if you are a BT customer?  Does it also apply to all 0845, 0870, 871 etc numbers?

~ Edited by Dave: Threads merged

DavidC wrote on Jan 24^th, 2009 at 12:46pm:

I have heard BT has agreed to scrap charges for 0845 numbers from this month.  Does this only appy if you are a BT customer?  Does it also apply to all 0845, 0870, 871 etc numbers?

It is only for BT customers using 0845 & 0870 numbers, which will now be included in your package. So if you are on anytime package you will get them 'free'. Or if you are one week end and evenings only then 'free' during that time, etc.

~ Edited by Dave: Quote added

Unfortunately, this is the exact response BT wanted - to make people think they are actually doing someting good!

But basically - they are making 0845 and 0870 calls ONLY "free" as part of your included calls - for the vast majority of BT customers this is weekends only, or evening and weekends only.  The rest of the time you carry on paying normal rates, as you also do if you go over an hour.

In addition, from April, they are scrapping Friends and Family (which gave 10-20% discount on your most called numbers), putting up the connection charge for all chargeable calls, increasing line rental, increasing costs of network services, tinkering with the per-minute costs of many other calls ....

There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

BT has always, perversely, charged less for calls to 0845 numbers than for chargeable calls to "standard landline" numbers, despite the fact that recipients of calls to 0845 benefit from "revenue sharing".

It has now extended this exceptional treatment (quite different from what other providers do) by allowing calls to 0845 numbers to be covered by inclusive packages. Residential customers choose the times when they will benefit from calls of up to one hour to certain numbers at no extra charge and pay accordingly.

All of BT's charges for residential customers will be increasing by around 10% on 1 April. Many see this move in respect of 0845 (and even more exceptionally 0870) as being intended to draw the heat from the obvious annoyance at such a price increase, which represents at least 4 times the current general rate of inflation.

Nothing in the world of commerce is free. BT's "generosity" is more than compensated for by other price changes, including a 17% increase in the call setup fee for all non-inclusive calls that has already been put into effect.

BT's exceptional situation in relation to 0845 and 0870 calls means that no other provider is likely to follow this move, as they would suffer far greater proportional costs in doing so. BT is simply exploiting its particular position in order to secure more committed customers on 12 month inclusive call plan agreements.

irrelevant wrote on Jan 24^th, 2009 at 1:25pm:

In addition, from April, they are scrapping Friends and Family (which gave 10-20% discount on your most called numbers) ....

This is more relevant to the Call Providers area, but I would wish to repeat a point made in the other thread:


SilentCallsVictim wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2009 at 5:32pm:

... Even before the coming changes, if one was using the phone to keep in regular touch with one's friends and family the break-even point for an inclusive package at the time when one did so (i.e. evenings or daytime) would be very likely to be reached.

Is anyone able to determine if the revised version of F&F - Friends & Family Mobile and Friends & Family International - are likely to be of more use and greater benefit to customers?

I am anxious that we do not over-simplify the issues in the way that BT has encouraged and allowed to happen, although some may say that if it behaves badly, then so should we.

Don't forget it is still not "free", you have to make a chargeable call each month if for example like me you are on BTs weekend package, paying only line rental to BT and using CPS for calls; - http://www.productsandservices.bt.com/consumerProducts/displayTopic.do?topicId=25499

"Unimited Weekend Plan. Only £10.27 a month line rental with Direct Debit and paper-free billing (£11.25 from 1st April), for new and existing residential customers making at least one chargeable call a month with BT."

Therefore the minimum call charge will be 12.5p from April 1st, (April fool!).

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Jan 24^th, 2009 at 1:39pm:

Is anyone able to determine if the revised version of F&F - Friends & Family Mobile and Friends & Family International - are likely to be of more use and greater benefit to customers?

It's just the Mobile Saver and International Saver options renamed.  I've never bothered with them myself, as it's still cheaper to call such numbers via other providers.  They will now give you them for free, though, in return for a 12 month lock-in.  It might benefit those people who won't/can't shop around and still only use BT for their calls...

However they have also introduced a 'fair' use policy with a maximum 1,000 minutes or 150 calls per month. It also states that 'If either of these limits on free calls is eceeded, BT will charge for these calls until further notice'.

I tried asking BT what 'until further notice' means but they couldn't explain this nor exactly how this 'fair' use policy would operate. They seemed to think it is just for 0845 & 0870 numbers but I am not sure they know enogh about it to be saying even this.

KeithSimpson001 wrote on Jan 26^th, 2009 at 1:05pm:

However they have also introduced a 'fair' use policy with a maximum 1,000 minutes or 150 calls per month.

This is to stop you and a mate each getting a BT 0870 number and making repeated 59 minute inclusive calls to each other and running off to the Bahamas with the profit. The limit means that you will probably get no further than Barking.

I joined this site quite a few years ago because BT had changed their tariffs. They made some calls inclusive, but increased line rental. To make matters worse, numbers I needed to call were not included.

Now they have done the same thing again. Made some more numbers inclusive, but increased line rental. Of course, many common numbers, such as 0844, are not included.

I have managed with calling almsot no 084 or 087 numbers for years now. When I have no alternative, I make sure the calls only last a few minutes. I certainly didn't make a pound a month's worth. So I'm not happy about BT's nearly 10% price increase.

I think it's time to consider switching phone provider, although I'm slightly worried that might cut off my broadband.

BT's new structure now means that, on my telephone setup, I can ring Virgin Broadband free at weekends on my BT landline at BT's expense to sort out all my Virgin problems.  That's nice.

One other point, to get free BT Caller Display you don't have to make 2 chargeable calls each month. You just have to make 2 calls - they can be freephone numbers or calls within your inclusive package., not necessarily paid for numbers.  I've had many months where I've not had a paid for call via BT but have never been charged for Caller Display.  

You may not have to pay for the caller display unit, but do you have to pay for the service ?

This is something else that worries me about BT's recent changes. The current version of the terms says:

Quote:

From 1st October 2006, customers who do not make some chargeable calls with BT will be charged for BT Caller Display. Customers with other call providers can still benefit from BT Caller Display at no extra cost if the following calls are made. Customers who are billed monthly must make at least two chargeable calls with BT in that month, otherwise BT reserves the right to charge £1.71 a month for BT Caller Display. Customers who are billed every three months must make at least six chargeable calls within those three months, otherwise BT reserves the right to charge £5.14 a quarter.

It only says "chargeable" calls again, as it did when they first introduced BT Privacy. At one stage they did change it to say "inclusive or chargeable calls", as I reported here back in October. I find the dropping of the word "inclusive" ominous. Before they added that word, I made sure I dialled a 0.5p 0844 number each month if I hadn't been charged for any calls (I figured 7.5p for Caller ID was still a good deal). However, if BT have gone back to that arrangement, I'm definitely going to look elsewhere for my phone service. e.g. Primus Saver is much cheaper for line rental, and only charges 50p or so per month for Caller Display. But I'm also puzzled by the October 2006 reference in BT's terms.

Martin_rosen: BT offer a free Caller ID service as part of their "BT Privacy" package, which also registers you with the Telephone Preference Service. As we are discussing, you have to make at least two calls a month via BT to qualify (this is intended stop CPS customers getting it, rather than BT customers who genuinely make few calls, or so I thought until this week). You have to provide your own Caller Display equipment.

If BT have gone back to chargeable calls, then I shall have Caller Display disconnected. We have very few calls via the landline nowadays. We use the very reasonable Virgin 300/300 on mobile which gives 300 minutes and 300 texts every month for £10pm.  

poppasmurf wrote on Jan 26^th, 2009 at 9:32pm:

We use the very reasonable Virgin 300/300 on mobile which gives 300 minutes and 300 texts every month for £10pm.

Not much use if you need a landline for ADSL, unfortunately!

A friend who's phone service is provided by Scottish & Southern Energy as part of a deal with gas and electricity has also been told that 0845/0870 will be inclusive. Along with a rental increase.

The well known NEG scammers and their more gullible doctor customers were forced by the government to change from 0870 and were paid £500 per practice to do so.

Posted on behalf of Barbara:

E-mail to Utility Warehouse:


Quote:

Dear Sir/Madam, I have today received my March bill and have a couple of questions. Firstly, on page 1 at the bottom in black print, you refer to "making some other small changes to our prices, terms & conditions from 1st April 2009".   Please could you tell me if these changes are in relation to Home Phone and, if so, I would like details of these now rather than waiting until they have taken place by the time of the next bill in case I find any of the changes problematical. Secondly, I note you are following the lead of BT & including calls to 0845s & 0870s in bundled call packages BUT, also like BT, you are increasing the monthly line rental.  Am I correct in assuming that the increase in line rental is to cover the increased costs you will face in including the calls to 0845s & 0870s?   As I take all steps possible to avoid using these covert premium rate numbers (including avoiding dealing with companies which use such numbers and seeking geographical alternatives for others), I very much doubt if this change is to my financial benefit as I do not make 91p worth of calls to these numbers in a month and I would, therefore, have appreciated a choice of retaining my present line rental. I look forward to hearing from you on these points. Yours faithfully, Barbara

And the response:


Quote:

Dear Barbara Details of the changes are being formulated and will be made available to all customers as specified. Based on suggestions from a majority of our customers, and in order to remain competitive, we have taken the decision to make calls to 0845 and 0870 numbers free, and increase our line rental. Regards, Correspondence Administrator Telecom plus PLC

Quote:

And the response: [quote]Dear Barbara Details of the changes are being formulated and will be made available to all customers as specified. Based on suggestions from a majority of our customers, and in order to remain competitive, we have taken the decision to make calls to 0845 and 0870 numbers free, and increase our line rental. Regards, Correspondence Administrator Telecom plus PLC

[/quote]So apart from BT and eventually TalkTalk and now UW, is anyone else planning on including 0845/0870 numbers?  Specifically SkyTalk and the most expensive landline provider, VirginMedia?

The point I found significant in the reply I received from UW is that they seem to be admitting that line rental charges are rising to cover the costs associated with including 0845 & 0870 calls, something which I thought had not been admitted by others.  (Thanks to Dave for posting the exchange of emails.)   In my case, it is another example of paying for something from which I do not benefit (thanks almost exclusively to this site).   I still intend to avoid using 0845 & 0870 nos other than in the most extreme circumstances as a point of principle & to help those reliant on mobiles or who do not have packages.

Barbara wrote on Mar 20^th, 2009 at 7:02pm:

The point I found significant in the reply I received from UW is that they seem to be admitting that line rental charges are rising to cover the costs associated with including 0845 & 0870 calls, something which I thought had not been admitted by others.  (Thanks to Dave for posting the exchange of emails.)   In my case, it is another example of paying for something from which I do not benefit (thanks almost exclusively to this site).   I still intend to avoid using 0845 & 0870 nos other than in the most extreme circumstances as a point of principle & to help those reliant on mobiles or who do not have packages.

I agree.

I am annoyed at the linerental (and other) increases to cover the inclusion of 0845/0870 numbers and I am also avoiding where possible ringing these numbers (even though being on BT, I can) but I'm aware that like all other companies (not just communication providers) there is no such thing as getting something for free especially in Rip Of Britain (ROB) so I knew prices rises in other areas would happen.

If I thought it would do any good I'd complain to Ofcom that those on low incomes or, in this current financial climate, are in fear of losing their job, that BT could have instead offered customers a choice - paying higher rental charges, etc in return for including 0845/0870 numbers, or stay as they are and pay for 0845/0870 numbers.  However, I have lost all hope in Ofcom.

Dave wrote on Mar 20^th, 2009 at 10:56am:

Quote: we have taken the decision to make calls to 0845 and 0870 numbers free, and increase our line rental.

That quote alone would cause them to fall foul of the ASA, were they to try and use the word "free" in any advertising.  They take a dim view of "free" offers actually being charged for...

irrelevant wrote on Mar 20^th, 2009 at 9:42pm:

Dave wrote on Mar 20th, 2009 at 10:56am: Quote: we have taken the decision to make calls to 0845 and 0870 numbers free, and increase our line rental. That quote alone would cause them to fall foul of the ASA, were they to try and use the word "free" in any advertising.  They take a dim view of "free" offers actually being charged for...

Normally whether their calls are  free/inclusive depends on how many services  you take  from them. Go to:

https://www.utilitywarehouse.co.uk/Home/home_phone/homephone_info.taf and click on free global calls.

From: CAP Guidance on the use of the word "Free"

Take your pick from:

Quote:

32.2 Promoters must not try to recover their costs by reducing the quality or composition or by inflating the price of any product that must be bought as a pre-condition of obtaining the free item. 32.3 Promoters should not describe an individual element of a package as “free” if the cost of that element is included in the package price.

Hello I understood that BT's decision not to charge for calls to 0870 numbers ONLY applied to BT subscribers. Could the Moderator please

confirn that this is indeed correct. What is going to happen to customers who do not use BT ie: Talk Talk Greenbee etc etc

I understood that Ofcom were not very comfortable with 0870 numbers and that the whole question of their continued use was being

reconsidered and that the Office of Fairtrading was now involved?

Regards,

VIVIAN

Hang on, that is not quite true, it depends which package you are on.

If you are on Unlimited Weekend Plan the 'free' calls are only at the week end.
If you are on Unlimited Evening & Weekend Plan 'free' calls are only at week ends and evenings
If you are on Unlimited Anytime Plan then all your calls will be 'free'.

Remember the so called 'free' calls are covered by the increase in the line rental that has or is taking place.

Also it covers 0845 numbers as well.

VIVIAN ALLPORT wrote on Apr 6^th, 2009 at 3:15pm:

... I understood that Ofcom were not very comfortable with 0870 numbers and that the whole question of their continued use was being reconsidered ...

Welcome and thanks for the posting.

Ofcom will shortly be announcing once again what it is to do about 0870, after many false starts and lengthy delays. BT has jumped the gun by assuming that revenue sharing will be prohibitted and is carrying the extra costs in the meantime. It is likely that the further delay will be longer than BT anticipated, and it could even be a permanent delay!

The charging arrangements for customers of TalkTalk, Greebee etc. are quite separate from those for subscribers to BT call packages.

VIVIAN ALLPORT wrote on Apr 6^th, 2009 at 3:15pm:

Hello I understood that BT's decision not to charge for calls to 0870 numbers ONLY applied to BT subscribers. Could the Moderator please confirn that this is indeed correct. What is going to happen to customers who do not use BT ie: Talk Talk Greenbee etc etc

As per other posts, it only applies to BT subscribers at times where there is an inclusive element for 01/02/03 calls.

What other retailers do is up to them. Some others or one other (Talk Talk) are following suit.

Please do not think that this is the beginning of the end for the premiums attached to 0870/0845 numbers as those who use them still benefit through revenue payments and services in kind, even where calls are inclusive.


VIVIAN ALLPORT wrote on Apr 6^th, 2009 at 3:15pm:

I understood that Ofcom were not very comfortable with 0870 numbers and that the whole question of their continued use was being reconsidered and that the Office of Fairtrading was now involved?

Ofcom has, for a number of years now, being saying that something needs to be done. I've not heard that the Office of Fair Trading has got involved.

VIVIAN ALLPORT wrote on Apr 6^th, 2009 at 3:15pm:

Hello I understood that BT's decision not to charge for calls to 0870 numbers ONLY applied to BT subscribers. Could the Moderator please confirn that this is indeed correct. What is going to happen to customers who do not use BT ie: Talk Talk Greenbee etc etc

As far as i'm aware only BT are including 0845/0870 in any inclusive minutes alongside that of 01/02/03 numbers.

TalkTalk customers who also take their linerental from TalkTalk will, from 2nd June, also have 0845/0870 included in any inclusive package.

I also understand UtilityWarehouse are planning on including 0845/0870 in their inclusive allowances as well.


Quote:

I understood that Ofcom were not very comfortable with 0870 numbers and that the whole question of their continued use was being reconsidered and that the Office of Fairtrading was now involved?

Ofcom, in my opinion, dont seem that concerned over 0870 numbers because Ofcom have had many, many consultations over many, many, many years over 0870 (not to mention other number ranges) and then eventually decided to remove the revenue sharing from 0870.  Then, however, Ofcom postponed this!

No one for sure knows if Ofcom will ever continue with what they originally planned for 0870 numbers but if its anything like what they did for 070 personal numbers then they may even do a u-turn on their decision!


Edit:  Sorry Dave about cross-post.  By time i had typed all this you had already posted.

Off topic replies have been moved to This Thread

Dave wrote on May 3^rd, 2009 at 11:31am:

Off topic replies have been moved to This Thread

Dave,

If you really insist on splitting this TalkTalk free local calls discussion off then you should have created the new thread for it in Geographical Numbers Chat and not in Call Providers, although I think you should have left it where I put it in the BT 0870 thread.

If the TalkTalk thread is placed in Call Providers then why isn't the BT one also there? ::)

All that putting the TalkTalk make local geographic calls free discussion in Call Providers will do is to kill the discussion stone dead. >:( :'(

Perhaps the previous posting (along with this), both of which are off topic, should be moved to a new thread in the "Site related" area.

SilentCallsVictim wrote on May 4^th, 2009 at 3:18pm:

Perhaps the previous posting (along with this), both of which are off topic, should be moved to a new thread in the "Site related" area.

Good old SCV.  As usual trying to butter up the decisions of those who he sees as being in a position of power.

It beats me why he is against 084/7 numbers at all, since he clearly likes to support everything else that the establishment does.

NGMsGhost wrote on May 4^th, 2009 at 3:32pm:

Good old SCV.  As usual trying to butter up the decisions of those who he sees as being in a position of power. It beats me why he is against 084/7 numbers at all, since he clearly likes to support everything else that the establishment does.

Some of us judge issues on their merits, rather than simply by noting, or guessing, who is responsible for them and using this as the basis for determining whether they must therefore be good or bad. This does make life more difficult, however I am prepared to rise to the challenge.

Experience has taught me that change for the better is often most effectively achieved by positive engagement with those who have the power to make that change.

SilentCallsVictim wrote on May 4^th, 2009 at 9:10pm:

Some of us judge issues on their merits, rather than simply by noting, or guessing, who is responsible for them and using this as the basis for determining whether they must therefore be good or bad. This does make life more difficult, however I am prepared to rise to the challenge. Experience has taught me that change for the better is often most effectively achieved by positive engagement with those who have the power to make that change.

I tried engaging with the regulator for several years.  All it proved was that they tacictly condoned all the scams and thought we were bunch of dangerous fanatics they could safely ignore.

OK you may be Mr slow patient and work within the system but on the whole that is not the personality type that causes someone to develop a sense of injustice and anger when they see an 084 or 087 prefixed number.  Also you previously even said you saw no objection in principal to their use by the private sector.  Which is why I have never trusted your own motivations for being involved in this campaign from Day One.

It is quite clear that you want to personally actually become the campaign (having previously had your own one man campaign) rather than simply assisting existing campaigners to conduct their campaigning more effectively.

I must confess that my sense of injustice and anger is more likely to be engaged by more important issues. My personality type does cause a highly emotional reaction to some public issues, but not telephone numbers.

It is well known that my past engagements with Ofcom have yielded some (albeit modest) positive results. This is what encouraged me to lend my weight to the cause that was being fought, with considerable success, by many long before my own involvement. There continue to be successes (e.g. with the BBC) for which I claim no credit whatsoever.

I do not share the view that there is corruption afoot in any public body. I see Ofcom's ineffectiveness as being due to other reasons, notably an excessive regard for the principles of consumerism. The first duty of any private business is to its shareholders, the interests of which are, to some extent, both allied with and set against those  of its customers and competitors. We may have deeply different views about the extent to which the state should interfere in those relationships. I would suspect that, like the Political parties, we may show gross inconsistencies in our positions on this matter.

As I have said many times, let us celebrate our points of agreement and common purposes whilst we debate only those points of difference that are truly relevant to the issues covered here.

SilentCallsVictim wrote on May 4^th, 2009 at 10:43pm:

I must confess that my sense of injustice and anger is more likely to be engaged by more important issues. My personality type does cause a highly emotional reaction to some public issues, but not telephone numbers.

Then what on earth are you doing wasting so many hours of your time on what you now say you see as being this petty matter only involving the cost of calls to a few telephone numbers?

I can assure you that most other long term activists in this campaign do have a very strong emotional reaction indeed against the abusive mentality towards the public that lies behind using these hidden revenue share numbers.  If you do not share that reaction then I cannot imagine precisely what persuades you to devote so many hours of your free time to patiently writing and sending briefing notes on this subject to your large circulation lists.

Also my emotion is not directed toward the telephone number but to the fact that the organisations purveying them feel they can impose a secret charge for accessing their services that is deliberately hidden from the users of the service and hence this distorts competetive consumer choices.

So far as this notion of something called "consumerism" is concerned this seems to be primarily an SCV invented word.  I never see it used by almost anyone else but clearly it appeals to your semantic sensibilities.  There is no consistency at all to Ofcom's policy positions as in the broadcasting sphere they spend most of their time obstructing the free market by preventing children from seeing adverts for the high calories foods they would much prefer to eat and they also devote great levels of resource to fining broadcasters for inadvertently transmitting unencrypted freeview periods of hard core pornography on dedicated erotic movie channels late at night when the same material is already available without any let or hindrance at all on the internet.    But then New Labour's prurient feminist strand objects to all forms of pornography as being a form of degradation of women, even though it does not object at all to the merciless exploitation of UK telecoms consumers (presumably on the basis that the level of exploitation of men and women that is involved is considered to be equal and not biased against one sex or the other).

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumerism


Quote:

In economics, consumerism refers to economic policies placing emphasis on consumption. In an abstract sense, it is the belief that the free choice of consumers should dictate the economic structure of a society (cf. Producerism, especially in the British sense of the term)

Forgive me if I have missed something but Consumerism sounds to me more like Thatcherism than New Labourism and I cannot see how any free choice by consumers is involved in being forced to call covert premium rate numbers that the majority of consumers are not even aware that they are paying a premium rate to call at the time they are making the calls?

Without addressing every point made, I will simply respond by commenting:

- I was not responsible for the wikipedia entry for "consumerism"

- "Consumerism" is indeed one of the many strands of Thatcherism that was adopted as a fundamental principle of New Labourism.

- It is relevant to Ofcom in the context of revenue sharing numbers in that Ofcom's response is based on the extent to which consumers call these numbers and the extent to which they complain about them in high numbers. The volume of individual complaints about an issue is a key factor in deciding Ofcom prioirities. This is what makes it unwilling to address cases where consumers are being effectively deceived (as in the case of 084/087 numbers) or frightened by unknown callers (in the case of Silent Calls).

- The extent of my engagement in these issue, which I do not seek to declare in this forum, is based on the extent to which I believe that I can help to make a difference, not simply on the importance of the issue itself.

I do not see the "abusive mentality" which is referred to. I do not believe that the management of NHS Blood and Transplant went through some sort of psychological transformation on making the decision to change from 0845 to 0300 numbers. A couple of years ago the same organisation moved from habitually making Silent Calls and defending the practice, to being one of the first to adopt the Informative Message when unable to complete a dialler generated call. In both cases this was nothing more than the application of a bit of common sense. If an "abusive mentality" existed before, then nothing has happened to remove it, so any cause for anger must remain in place.

Surely the actual driving forces in the activities of Ofcom are not Consumerism at all but are in fact those far more well known New Labour phenomenons of Croneyism and Careerism.

The reality is that Ofcom does actually receive large numbers of complaints from the public about both Silent Calls and the hidden extra cost of calls to 084/7 numbers, especially when made from mobile phones.  But Ofcom are past masters in manipulating the complaints they receive from the public (largely on the phone) so as to only record as being serious complaints that are worthy of further investigation those matters that its political masters have indicated are important to it.  The matters that are important to its political masters (New Labour) are an amalgum of issues which are important to New Labour's main business Croneys such as BSkyB and Capita (both massive benefcators of 084/7 revenue share deals) in order to ensure continued support for the New Labour regime in the media and/or large financial donations to it and also New Labour's principal political obsessions such as the perceived exploitation of women or the ethnic minorities and/or a failure of any individual to live a so called "healthy lifestyle".  Ofcom's manipulation of its complaints logs to only investigate matters important to New Labour and its croneys ensures success in the principal objective of careerism pursued by senior Ofcom staff who are selected in such a manner that this ensures they will not be individuals who are in any way issue or principle driven but instead are driven only by a desire to rise to the highest position of pay and authority that they can achieve during their careers with the organisation.

Bloody hell. Have you two got too much time on your hands or something?

Cruz wrote on May 5^th, 2009 at 9:37am:

Have you two got too much time on your hands or something?

That is probably a fair accusation, which applies also to those who take the time to read postings that are clearly off-topic. If perhaps we entertain or inspire, then our time is not being wasted.

Cruz wrote on May 5^th, 2009 at 9:37am:

Bloody hell. Have you two got too much time on your hands or something?

Perhaps we have too much time on our hands but it is probably more a case of he believing in a flat earth and I believing in a round earth or some comparable analogy relevant to the issues surrounding phone call cost midescription
A remarkable feature of this website I have always found is my strong commonality of mindset with nearly all the other people who are regular activists and campaigners on this issue.  The only other members that does not ever seem to have been true of are SCV and the gentleman known as andy9.

Now I am sure they both have their own valid opinions and points of view on any given matter but their general motivations in pursuing this campaign and the way they see these issues are always without exception wholly different to my own.

Cruz wrote on May 5^th, 2009 at 9:37am:

Bloody hell. Have you two got too much time on your hands or something?

I always enjoy reading the 'spats' between  SilentCallsVictim and NGMsGhost. Infact if you read them properly you can learn quite a lot from these two guys, whether you agree with them or not

NGMsGhost wrote on May 5^th, 2009 at 10:40am:

their general motivations in pursuing this campaign and the way they see these issues are always without exception wholly different to my own.

This is perhaps untrue, but not worth arguing about.

I may differentiate myself from other contributors in that I look primarily for opportunities to make a change for the better, rather than decrying the inevitable hopelessness of the world as it is. I see this as more analogous to the half-full/half-empty glass than the flat/round earth.

May I put in a plea that we should not neglect the concept of a spherical earth, albeit with displaced poles?