I just want to check my facts before sending a letter.

An 0845 call using a BT plan during the day is cheaper than dialing a geo number and consequently also cheaper than an 03xx which will be the same price as the geo number. That is correct isn't it?

Obviously if you are on option 3 they are all zero after the recent BT change.

I vaguely remember sometime ago this change where 0845 numbers became cheaper during the day and discussion here about this muddying the water, but can't remember the details.

I can confirm the same understanding.

I describe this as a perverse discount, because 0845 calls cost BT considerably more in termination charges.

BT is unique amongst telephone service providers in this respect, apart from those who accept an obligation to slavishly mirror its charges. All others reflect the increased cost of terminating 0845 calls in their charges.

At present on all three BT Calling Plans a 0845 call is the same as or cheaper than a 01/02/03 call at all times.

Thanks.

Keith,

It seems to me that the thrust of your argument with the cost of 0845 calls really ought to relate to calling them on mobile phones where they are excluded from bundled minutes plans and also frequently cost far more than out of bundled minutes or Pay As You Go calls to 01/02/03 numbers (with all providers including BT Mobile as far as I am aware).

If you allow yourself to be drawn in to the area of BT's pricing of 0845 numbers from landlines you will only be playing in to the hands of whoever you are writing to.

Also 0845 numbers cost 20p per minute from a BT Payphone after the initial 40p charge (for which you get only about 1 minute to 0845) compared to 01/02/03 numbers that only cost 1p per minutes after the initial 40p charge (for which you get a 20 minute long call at 1p per minute +20p connection fee).

I don't know if that helps at all?

Thanks NGMGhost. Yes I have put all those arguments (mobiles, payphones, other providers, etc). However I am having the BT costs quoted to me so I wanted to be sure of the facts before responding.

Thanks for the advice anyway - much appreciated.

Keith wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2009 at 11:58am:

Thanks NGMGhost. Yes I have put all those arguments (mobiles, payphones, other providers, etc). However I am having the BT costs quoted to me so I wanted to be sure of the facts before responding..

Keith,

I trust you will also be making the point that BT now seems to be further increasing its basic line rental above that charged by TalkTalk, Tiscali, yourcalls.net, Post Office Homephone etc and this appears to be cross subsidising the "free" calls to 0845 and 0870 plus also the massive 140% increase in the minimum call charge for Weekday Daytime calls by Weekend Calls Plan customers (formerly Option 1) over the last couple of years.  Not to mention the introduction of  per minute rounding up of all chargeable calls (especially mobiles) in the last year or so.

Plus also the abuser you are dealing with are still getting their equipment cheaper, maintenance cheaper, call stats for free or whatever compared to using a geographic phone number or an 03 phone number.  Of course they will continue to try to pretend this is not the case.

I don't suppose you can tell us which organisation you are currently having to do battle with on this issue?

NGMG, I'm keeping who under my hat currently as I know they will be accessing the site.

It is also not a personal battle as I am on BT Option 3 so doesn't impact me. It is one of principle.

I agree with all your arguments re the BT pricing, but that is not relevant to the argument with the user of the 0845 number who can simply quote that the 0845 number is cheaper or the same for most BT users (which is their argument).

They would be relevant if I were having an argument with BT.

I have and I am putting the argument about mobiles, payphones and other providers, but it was easier when you could simply quote that it was more expensive for everyone.

I also like to quote that it cost me more to call an 0845 number than to call Australia. Now I get 0845 numbers foc on Option 3 that is no longer true either.

All these little changes in pricing that have recently been introduced muddy the water.

Keith wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2009 at 1:22pm:

NGMG, I'm keeping who under my hat currently as I know they will be accessing the site.

Well not many organisations one is likely to write to would be doing that as most of them are both too arrogant and complacent (they wouldn't have started using 084/7 to begin with if they weren't such things).  Only Ofcom, BT and NEG immediately spring to mind as people obviously continuously monitoring this website.


Quote:

It is also not a personal battle as I am on BT Option 3 so doesn't impact me. It is one of principle.

My own view is that as and when their one year contract ends any genuine supporter of this campaign should now move their telephony arrangements away from BT to a supplier that does not include 084/7 calls in their call packages but offers better deal as a total package (eg Sky or Talktalk).  I have the same dilemma because www.yourcalls.net have decided to make 0845 and 0870 calls free of charge in my Anytime calls package with them.  I was about to move my phone line and broadband to Plusnet but annoyingly they have now withdrawn the super cheap deal I was planning to take up and now discriminate against those of us on non LLU country exchanges like myself. >:(


Quote:

I agree with all your arguments re the BT pricing, but that is not relevant to the argument with the user of the 0845 number who can simply quote that the 0845 number is cheaper or the same for most BT users (which is their argument).

Nonetheless 40% of call volumes are now from mobiles and charges to 0845 from mobiles are exorbitant in most cases and they are always now excluded from bundled minutes packages.  Often 0845 services are particularly subject to much higher levels of use from mobiles than phone numbers in general.  National Rail Enquiries immediately springs to mind.


Quote:

I also like to quote that it cost me more to call an 0845 number than to call Australia. Now I get 0845 numbers foc on Option 3 that is no longer true either. All these little changes in pricing that have recently been introduced muddy the water.

So why do you think BT chose to include them in their call packages just as the campaign against 084/7 seemed to be gaining a lot of momentum.  They still profit hugely from all the 084/7 calls from non BT customers terminated with call centre operations such as NHS Direct where they provide the phone lines.  So they want to be seen to be the good boys while still secretly profiting on the other end of things.  Their introduction of per minute charging, 140% increase in minimum call fee and line rental increases are all paying for "free" 0845" and "0870" calls that BT's customers who use this site do not actually need.

I really think one must show one's contempt for BT's actions by moving one's telephony arrangements elsewhere.  I see no danger of companies like TalkTalk, Sky and Tiscali following suit when their focus is on offering the lowest monthly broadband and call package price.

I also think the people you are dealing with cannot ignore the per minute charge from a BT Payphone being 1900% higher when the poorest citizen consumers may often still have to use a BT Payphone.  If they don't they may use a Pay As You Go mobile phone (as they can't afford a landline) where the same excessive 0845 charge issue applies.

If the basis and justification given by an organisation for the use of 0845 numbers is that it's the same or cheaper with BT then either:

• the organisation's customers are atypical and most use BT (or another provider which gives a peverse discount on 0845 calls).
  
• the organisation believes that its customers will be far better off making 0845 calls with BT (and other providers which give peverse discounts on 0845 calls) than calling 01/02/03 numbers. This means that the organisation believes that free competition in telephone call tariffs has failed. It will presumably encourage its staff to dial 0845 numbers from its office and mobile telephones rather than 01/02/03 numbers.

NGMsGhost wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2009 at 1:46pm:

... Often 0845 services are particularly subject to much higher levels of use from mobiles than phone numbers in general.  National Rail Enquiries immediately springs to mind.

The recent news story GB rail fares 'more than Europe' is relevant here.

And if you want information you must call a premium number. Strange how they fail to publicise that mobile users can view timetables and live departure information for a fraction of the cost at wap.nationalrail.co.uk