So this site exists to replace NGN (Non Geo Graphic) numbers with their Geographic (Landline) alternatives because of the "high call costs" and the fact the suppliers and end companies are "making a profit" from them.  Well for starters this is a free market economy incase you hadn't realised, and to be fair the cost of NGN's are not that high to call.  For example an 0844 number costs about 5p per minute - hardly breaking the bank now is it?

But wait.... this 5p per minute cost is outrageous isn't it!?! We must do something about it, because we can't have people actually paying for their phone calls now can we.  By using this site it's actually damaging the telecoms industry because it means networks and suppliers are not getting the traffic they once were.

Furthermore when you call your insurance company on an 0870 or 0844 number they probably do indeed receive a cut.  Did you ever wonder where this money went?  No?  Well you all wanted cheap car insurance - so it goes to subsidise policies, the same with banks, airlines and many other companies.  Due to your own short sightedness you will end up paying more on your premiums, bank charges and air fares because you are denying these companies an additional revenue stream used to offset and subsidise costs - well done to you all!

Due to the constant bleeting and moaning from the general public, OFCOM has reduced the costs of 0870 numbers to that of a geographic number - so it won't cost anymore to call.  Again, well done, congratulations on ruining a perfectly good and legigimate industry.  Now that you have achieved success on your "no to 0870" crusade, where will you go next?  0871, 0844, 09 premium, bank charges, airport tax, council tax, line rentals - when are you going to stop?

Don't you realise there is no such thing as a "free lunch" and by attempting to get one you're leeching off legitimate businesses and costing jobs?  People who work in the telecoms industry and PEOPLE, REAL PEOPLE with families to support.  Yet for a few pence saving on your calls you are quite happy to increase direct charges for services (see above re: insurance costs) and quite happily put people out of work for your own greed and selfishness.

I doubt this message will get past a moderator because I dare say they won't like having such a post on their site, but if it does - discuss.  Try and see things from the other side, and realise this industry supports families and children across the UK.  During this difficult time, the last thing we need is more jobs going to the wall for the sake of a couple of phone calls.

This site is a disgrace and should be shut down.

Your own short sightedness will end up costing YOU more in the long run, and also the people who are trying to make an honest living and support themselves through this difficult time in the telecoms industry.  We're not all giants like BT and Vodafone, some of us are small companies struggling to survive - and this site is not helping one little bit.

I guess you will want the new television show 'Mumbai Calling' scrapped as it conveys a true reflection of how a call center works. People object to using 0870, 0871, 0844 & 0845 numbers is because of the abuse companies use on these numbers. getting through and then being put on hold whilst an operater finishes their tea or their conversation with a colleague before talking to a customer so that the customer can be conned into paying a fortune for making a call before they start talking. Me thinks you are forgetting what a customer is. They expect a good service, receive their goods and services for a fair price and not to be conned.

Anyway at least BT have put 0870 & 0845 numbers into their call packages, so saving the poor ripped off customer a few bob.

There are several organisations have seen the error of their ways by going back to geographical numbers or using 03 numbers. So obviously not everyone agrees with what you are up to.

I am sure there will be far more knowlegable people than me replying to your post and will be able to write far more eloquently than I have done.

ShortSighted wrote on Jun 9^th, 2009 at 2:11pm:

So this site exists to replace NGN (Non Geo Graphic) numbers with their Geographic (Landline) alternatives because of the "high call costs" and the fact the suppliers and end companies are "making a profit" from them. …

I see two main objectives:

1. To make everyone aware that all who use these numbers are deriving subsidy from all callers. Whether this is through the use of revenue payments directly to the party receiving the call or purely reflected in a reduction in the receiver's telephone service charges is irrelevant.

If companies wish to operate on these "premium" revenue sharing numbers, then so be it. The truth is that they are charging their customers. This is a matter of principle rather than a matter of opinion.

2. Many on here object to being charged in this way full stop. This is therefore subjective.


Please do not convolute these two reasons for saying no to 0870.



ShortSighted wrote on Jun 9^th, 2009 at 2:11pm:

…  Well for starters this is a free market economy incase you hadn't realised, and to be fair the cost of NGN's are not that high to call.  For example an 0844 number costs about 5p per minute - hardly breaking the bank now is it?

The market for 084 and 087 numbers is undoubtedly driven by the recipients who use them. The telephone providers that allow calls to be made (that general consumers use) must pay higher "wholesale" charges for these numbers. It is not surprising that these are reflected in retail charges.



ShortSighted wrote on Jun 9^th, 2009 at 2:11pm:

But wait.... this 5p per minute cost is outrageous isn't it!?! We must do something about it, because we can't have people actually paying for their phone calls now can we.  By using this site it's actually damaging the telecoms industry because it means networks and suppliers are not getting the traffic they once were.

You are clearly one of those telephone providers who choose to hide the fact that you receive around 6.5 pence per minute when someone calls one of your 0870 numbers. Had this been on a geographical number starting 01 or 02 or a new UK-wide number starting 03, you would have received 0.3 pence per minute.



ShortSighted wrote on Jun 9^th, 2009 at 2:11pm:

Furthermore when you call your insurance company on an 0870 or 0844 number they probably do indeed receive a cut.  Did you ever wonder where this money went?  No?  Well you all wanted cheap car insurance - so it goes to subsidise policies, the same with banks, airlines and many other companies.  Due to your own short sightedness you will end up paying more on your premiums, bank charges and air fares because you are denying these companies an additional revenue stream used to offset and subsidise costs - well done to you all!

You quite clearly have no idea of telecoms. As I said above, the amount of money a telephone provider gets for a call to a 0870 number is around 6.5 pence per minute in the daytime. Compare that to the 0.3 pence per minute for geographical calls.

If the company receiving the call gets 2 pence per minute, that leaves 4.5 pence per minute for provision of the telephone services. High call volumes pay 4 or 4.5 pence per minute, which still leaves 2 pence per minute for provision of telecommunications services.

A free market works best when the party choosing the product pays for the service. Imagine going to a supermarket where someone else pays for you. The supermarket will have no incentive to reduce it charges or offer discounts.



ShortSighted wrote on Jun 9^th, 2009 at 2:11pm:

Due to the constant bleeting and moaning from the general public, OFCOM has reduced the costs of 0870 numbers to that of a geographic number - so it won't cost anymore to call.  Again, well done, congratulations on ruining a perfectly good and legigimate industry.  Now that you have achieved success on your "no to 0870" crusade, where will you go next?  0871, 0844, 09 premium, bank charges, airport tax, council tax, line rentals - when are you going to stop?

With 09 numbers consumers know where they stand. Calls provide subsidy to the parties they're calling. They aren't used as an alternative to standard landline numbers.



ShortSighted wrote on Jun 9^th, 2009 at 2:11pm:

Don't you realise there is no such thing as a "free lunch" and by attempting to get one you're leeching off legitimate businesses and costing jobs?  People who work in the telecoms industry and PEOPLE, REAL PEOPLE with families to support.  Yet for a few pence saving on your calls you are quite happy to increase direct charges for services (see above re: insurance costs) and quite happily put people out of work for your own greed and selfishness.

There is no such thing as a free lunch, we know that. We call on openness rather than hiding the premiums I talked about above. A lot of this has come from the previous linkage of 0845 and 0870 to local and national rate, respectively. Providers of these numbers have used these terms aggressively, despite the fact that they have had no meaning for a number of years. This is due to the free market in telecommunications services you identify.

ShortSighted wrote on Jun 9^th, 2009 at 2:11pm:

I doubt this message will get past a moderator because I dare say they won't like having such a post on their site, but if it does - discuss.  Try and see things from the other side, and realise this industry supports families and children across the UK.  During this difficult time, the last thing we need is more jobs going to the wall for the sake of a couple of phone calls. This site is a disgrace and should be shut down.

As I say, you work in the industry and clearly have your own motives. I call on openness on the processes involved as a matter of principle.

It is good to have a discussion with all sides contributing. I am sure that other members will be happy to give their opinion on your comments.

Hang on a minute, on the one hand you suggest that job and businesses may be lost but on the other you say that these are a "couple" of phone calls costing a "few pence" extra. These employers need reporting for paying below the National Minimum Wage.

As a provider of 0870 numbers, the amount you get is over 2000% that of a landline call. How is this a "few pence" and how can any free market work for general consumers?



ShortSighted wrote on Jun 9^th, 2009 at 2:11pm:

Your own short sightedness will end up costing YOU more in the long run, and also the people who are trying to make an honest living and support themselves through this difficult time in the telecoms industry.  We're not all giants like BT and Vodafone, some of us are small companies struggling to survive - and this site is not helping one little bit.

Reform for anything so it is fair should come within. Look at MPs' expenses row which has only come to light when the information has been made public. Did any of them consider the system to be in need of change before this?

So do you provide 03 numbers? These are the neutral choice - they are the same as 01/02 numbers and should be used where organisations don't wish to derive subsidy from callers.

If 084 and 087 numbers worked in the way 03 numbers do now, then the free market in telephone calls would have been free to reduce the cost of calling these numbers inline with that of geographical calls. Instead it is severly slanted to recipients and their providers.

Where an organisation accepts charging callers in provision of its service, then 09 numbers should be employed. This way, it is clear to consumers what process is happening.

ShortSighted wrote on Jun 9^th, 2009 at 2:11pm:

Don't you realise there is no such thing as a "free lunch" and by attempting to get one you're leeching off legitimate businesses and costing jobs?  People who work in the telecoms industry and PEOPLE, REAL PEOPLE with families to support.  Yet for a few pence saving on your calls you are quite happy to increase direct charges for services (see above re: insurance costs) and quite happily put people out of work for your own greed and selfishness.

The true leeches are those organizations that have exploited the public over the last fifteen or so years with inappropriate numbering designed to deceive. An 08X call from a cellular device is not a 'few pence per minute'.


ShortSighted wrote on Jun 9^th, 2009 at 2:11pm:

This site is a disgrace and should be shut down.

Are you a member of some fascist organization that is opposed to free expression of thought? What is a true disgrace is the shafting of the public, in the order of billions of pounds, through an inadequately-regulated environment that allows legalized theft.

I find the "semi-premium" numbers such as 0871 0844 and 0845 useul. They help to identify those organisations who are inclined to screw the last penny out of their customers and hoodwink them in doing so.

Without these numbers, how can we identify which firms to avoid?

Well, Shortsighted really does live up to his/her name - or would blinkered or blindfolded be a better answer?    Sounds a bit like an MP justifying their expenses!  The reality is we DO pay for our phone calls, those who object to NGNs aren't getting phone calls free, what we object to is, if we are on a package, having to pay AGAIN or, if not, paying a premium.  As Stoday, quite rigtly says, these NGNs give a good clue as to organisations to avoid BUT some (eg public sector or monopoly utilities) give one no choice and that, in my view, is blackmail.  Others, for example some insurance companies, give 0800s for sales then, having snared the customer, exploit them with NGNs for everything else - claims, resolving problems & (their) errors.  This is NOT the marketplace, it is sharp practice &, as such, reprehensible.   Regarding prices, I would rather have an open idea of the true cost, if my car insurance preium is X, I expect that to cover the cost of insuring my car & any associated costs eg contacting the company, I do not expect to face the Ryanair brand of charging.  There, got that off my chest, as moderately as I could.  I suspect little or nothing further will be heard from Shortsighted who also demonstrates what a supremem democrat they are by calling for this site to be closed!

What a delightful thread. We are all being drawn out into showing our colours. I will await further contributions and add my own when I return to my desk next week.

Stoday wrote on Jun 10^th, 2009 at 5:08am:

Without these numbers, how can we identify which firms to avoid?

"Your call is important to us" is also a useful aid.

Your call is important to us > a) but not important enough for us to staff adequately;
                                             b) and provides a very useful source of income.

I used to be able to phone to make a doctor's appointment within my inclusive minutes on my landline or within my inclusive minutes on my mobile. After a couple of rings, the phone would be answered by a real person who then dealt with my enquiry in mere minutes. At very busy times of the day, I might occasionally get the engaged signal, so would call again a few minutes later. The failed call cost nothing.

Then, some idiot decided that the local number would be scrapped and it would be replaced with an 0844 number. If I call from my landline I pay extra for the call. If I call from my mobile I pay extra for the call. The call is answered after a short while by a machine that tells that I am being 'connected' and tells me how important my call is. I already know how important my call is, thanks. I am the one that is bloody ill.

Then there's this rigmarole where you're informed that you're 'moving up the queue' - all the while still paying out more money to not speak with anyone. In the old days you either spoke to someone, or you got the engaged tone. We don't need all this queueing crap. It's an excuse to generate revenue.

Finally, you get a message that 'you're being connected to the surgery'. OK, hang on, what the heck have I just been paying for, for the last 20 minutes then, if I am only just being 'connected' now? This is a rip-off; one that needs closing down very very soon.

It actually takes me less time, and costs me less money, to get in the car and drive to the surgery and make an appointment - except that the receptionist used to get all feisty saying 'we have this local rate telephone booking system', swiftly corrected and exposed as the scam it really is - they won't make the mistake of telling me to use that system again.

ShortSighted is yet another person who comes on here with the same old excuses and is not willing to respond to any further discussion. Speaks volumes doesn't it?

I personally think that if they can't be bothered to contribute to a thread they started (I don't believe they've even come back since they posted it) that there is no point keeping it here. This forum is about *discussion*, not running in, dumping your POV and running off...

This is an open and public forum to which anyone is free to post, subject to certain rules. It is not a boxing booth in which one is invited to face up to punches from a group of proven champions in argument in an attempt to defeat them on their home territory.

Do we wish our opponents to hold and express stronger arguments? I am always infuriated when, for example, an act of terrorism is condemned for being "cowardly", as this implies a desire for such acts to be carried out with less concern for the risks presented by our attempts to defend ourselves against attack.

The purpose of a discussion forum is however to discuss the issues, not the individuals who post.

I agree - it is a discussion forum, and the idea is to discuss things. However, I think the fact the OP hasn't returned speaks volumes. Yes, they are unlikely to "win" any debate here, but so far this discussion has been very one-sided.

'For example an 0844 number costs about 5p per minute - hardly breaking the bank now is it? '

MUPPET, MUPPET, MUPPET, MUPPET, MUPPET!!!

An 08 number costs 40p a minute from my mobile phone. Living in shared accomodation, as many young people do in these times of extortionate rent, it is not feasible to have a fixed line phone where I live.

Lets say in a typical month I might call my bank, GP, a couple of companies such as Argos or British Gas, the council. Then there are 'once in a blue moon' calls to people like DVLA, the Passport Office, the police. Oh and I might book a holiday from time to time or concert tickets or something else such as car insurance.

So lets say in a month I spend about an hour of call time on such calls, not unrealistic given the amount of time spent on hold. That racks up a considerable £24 to add on my phone bill.

Do remember that when companies such as British Gas and many insurance companies opened these huge call centres, they did so to compensate for the fact that they closed down their High St shops (remember the Gas shops where you could pay your bill in person?) Well it is clearly cheaper for them to operate in this way and we shouldn't have to subsidise them further through extortionate call charges.

Also, your argument about cheaper insuranc policies due to 0844 completely contradicts what you say about the call charges not breaking the bank.

You obviously work for a Telco and are suffering as a result of people not calling your scam numbers. I too am a salesperson, but I am an honest one. Dishonest, cheating scammers like you will never prosper my friend.

Change your mobile provider floella2, you are being ripped off.

0844 & 0845 & 0870 numbers are 25 pence per minute on pay as you go and 20 pence on monthly. with o2

Thanks, sounds like a plan :)

floella2 wrote on Jun 27^th, 2009 at 8:59pm:

Thanks, sounds like a plan :)

Your other option is to use a provider like 18185 for 0845 numbers from your mobile. They provide a geographical number, so you call that and you pay for that call to your mobile provider (or from inclusive minutes where applicable) and then charged 5p plus 3ppm by 18185.

There are alternatives for the DVLA, most police forces, banks and insurance companies in the database.

Thanks Dave. I didn't know about 18185 - what an excellent service! I notice that 0845/0870 are only 1p a minute at weekends.

Very useful for the handful of companies using evasive tactics to force us to use NGNs and the few that aren't listed here

It seems that ShortSighted's myopia blinds him or her to any other point of view than that a nice revenue stream he/she was used to  will now be stopped and they are not interested in the fact that all 084/7 calls have been based on a history of deliberate fraudulent misselling to the consumer that they are Local Rate or National Rate when they are not.

If these revenue share calls could only ever have been introduced in the form of 09 calls so the consumer realised they involved paying the called company extra then none of the call centres would ever have dared introduce them in the first place.

It is the deliberate hiding of a charge and using this to cross subsidise other aspect of call centre activities to which we object and yes I would much rather pay more for my insurance premium while only paying a normal rate phone call for any subsequent claims or administration arising as a result of being a policy holder.

It seems that utterly stunned by his post not being removed from the forum that ShortSighted now has nothing more to say. ;) :P

The OP does make a very valid point that the businesses that have 0870 numbers will simply migrate to another revenue share number or will fold their lost revenue share into their prices.

As saynoto0870 have stated themselves their issue was not about charges to 0870 numbers perse but more about the abuse of these numbers being touted as 'national rate'.

This legislation acheives nothing. Unscrupulous Businesses will still rip off callers by holding them in queues to maximise their revenue share (albeit now via 0844 or 0871 numbers) and operators (especially mobile operators) will continue to have widely disparate charging for 08xx numbers.

The 'brand', 'saynoto0870' has been taken literally by an incompetent operator who failed to legislate against the real problem.

When are you going to set up a website called 'saynotobeingchargedforfreephonecallsfromymobile.com' ?

bikeman wrote on Jul 25^th, 2009 at 1:06pm:

When are you going to set up a website called 'saynotobeingchargedforfreephonecallsfromymobile.com' ?

This is a good suggestion, albeit a clumsy name.

It will be necessary to confirm that (as with the other points made) it is the claim of "freephone" that is the problem.

I am not aware of anyone who has clearly stated a desire to pick up the cost of calls from all sources, including mobiles. That is perhaps why there is no standard arrangement with a reserved range of numbers that offer this feature. It is reasonable to assume that if sufficient representations had been made to Ofcom to provide such a range, then it would have been provided.

The proposed website could perhaps aim to gather together those who wanted such a facility, so as to make strong representations to Ofcom on this point.

To avoid being short sighted, campaigning on this issue needs to be handled with some care so as not to undermine two existing features. Firstly, the fact that some would withdraw their "freephone" facility if compelled to meet the cost of calling them from mobiles also. Secondly, the mobile operators waive their charges on calls to "helplines", under an arrangement brokered by the Telephone Helplines Association. They are also known to have extended this arrangement to other numbers, such as the National Pandemic Flu Service. These arrangements are purely voluntary and not universally applicable.

If one were content for these facilities to be lost for the sake of a coherent prinicple, that would be a valid position to take. To address the concerns of the OP however, one must approach this issue with an awareness of the implications.

(The wider question of how the costs of mobile telephony are distributed between purchase price, rental and call charges is a quite separate issue, although changes could provide a resolution to the particular issue.)