I see that Hitchin County Court has jumped on the bandwagon and changed their (perfectly adequate) 01462 443750 number to 0844 892 0550. When you call the former number you get a recorded message telling you to call 0844 892 0550. I cannot find a geographic alternative to this - can anyone help?

I haven't done a comprehensive search across all courts but wonder whether this is the only court jumping on the rip-off bandwagon. Does Her Majesty's Courts Service have any views on this money making scheme (I see they publicise their HQ number as 0845 4568770 - translated to 020 3334 2860)?

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~ Edited by Dave: Thread title amended

This page on the Hertfordshire County Council website gives:

Park House
1-12 Old Park Road
Hitchin
Hertfordshire
SG5 2JR
Phone(s): 01462 443750
Fax: 01462 443758


Both phone and fax numbers give a network announcement redirecting to the 0844 number as do other 01462 44375x numbers.

HM Courts gives telephone 0844 892 0550 and fax 01462 445444.

Try telephone numbers similar to the fax number, ie 445440, 445443 etc. Let us know how you get on. If you find a suitable alternative, then please let us know and I will list it for others to use.

[quote author=Dave link=1247047631/0#1 date=1247048746HM Courts gives telephone 0844 892 0550 and fax 01462 445444.

Try telephone numbers similar to the fax number, ie 445440, 445443 etc. Let us know how you get on. If you find a suitable alternative, then please let us know and I will list it for others to use.[/quote]The geographic fax number 01462 445444 still seems to work, although the other numbers you quote all give recorded messages redirecting to 0844. I'll see if I can successfully send them a fax this evening.

I'll try to pop over there this afternoon and ask them about this policy face to face [smiley=angry.gif]

joli wrote on Jul 8^th, 2009 at 11:27am:

The geographic fax number 01462 445444 still seems to work, although the other numbers you quote all give recorded messages redirecting to 0844. I'll see if I can successfully send them a fax this evening.

Did you try 01462 445443, 445440 and others as suggested?  :-?

Dave wrote on Jul 8^th, 2009 at 11:33am:

joli wrote on Jul 8th, 2009 at 11:27am: The geographic fax number 01462 445444 still seems to work, although the other numbers you quote all give recorded messages redirecting to 0844. I'll see if I can successfully send them a fax this evening. Did you try 01462 445443, 445440 and others as suggested?  :-?

The 0844 892 0550 is currently answered as "Hitchin County Court's Helpdesk" as are 445400, 445440, 445441, 445442, 445443, and probably others. I've added an entry for this in the database.

Dave wrote on Jul 8^th, 2009 at 11:33am:

The 0844 892 0550 is currently answered as "Hitchin County Court's Helpdesk" as are 445400, 445440, 445441, 445442, 445443, and probably others. I've added an entry for this in the database.

The number is a helpdesk for both Hitchin and St Albans County Courts. Therefore it will probably have a St Albans (01727) number as well. I suggest you update the entry adding a reference to St Albans County Court.

The court staff say this is an experiment to provide a helpdesk front end to these two courts. The helpdesk staff are actually located in Hitchin. If they regard it as a success they plan to roll it out to other courts.

joli wrote on Jul 15^th, 2009 at 7:25am:

The number is a helpdesk for both Hitchin and St Albans County Courts. Therefore it will probably have a St Albans (01727) number as well. I suggest you update the entry adding a reference to St Albans County Court.

Thanks. I've added a reference to St Albans Court as well. If it's based at Hitchin, then perhaps there are only 01462 numbers for the helpdesk.

Bedford County Court used to be 01234 319001. In the last few weeks they've jumped on the 0845 bandwaggon as 0844 892 0550. This apparently the same number as St Albans and Hitchin County Courts. The database suggests they can be reached at 01462 445400. However I've tried that number numerous times in the last few working days and it just places me in an apparently infinitely long queue with an occasional message saying "whilst you are wating for an operator to help you ..." but no live person actually answers.

It looks as if there's either a glitch in the system or they've changed the routing so as to sabotage the listed geographic number. Has anyone got any suggestions?

joli wrote on Mar 15^th, 2010 at 3:23pm:

It looks as if there's either a glitch in the system or they've changed the routing so as to sabotage the listed geographic number. Has anyone got any suggestions?

I definately think that they (01462 and 0844) are not answering the same, so the 0844 number probably points to a different 01/02 number.

The 0844 number rings until someone answers it as "County Court Helpdesk". I wonder which court it is answered at.

From what we know, it looks like numbers at each court are of the form:

Bedford 01234 3190xx
Hitchin 01462 4454xx
St Albans 01727 7532xx

Dave wrote on Mar 15^th, 2010 at 3:48pm:

The 0844 number rings until someone answers it as "County Court Helpdesk". I wonder which court it is answered at. From what we know, it looks like numbers at each court are of the form: Bedford 01234 3190xx Hitchin 01462 4454xx St Albans 01727 7532xx

I spoke to the Hitchin court staff last year who then said that the call centre for St Albans and Hitchin County Courts was actually based at Hitchin County Court office. I suspect they are still based there. Now they have apparently roped in Bedford County Court. The email address for the helpdesk for all three courts is the same.

Bedford Magistrates Court is housed in the same building as the County Court and is 01234 319000. I have spoken to the switchboard there today but they have refused to transfer me to the County Court although it is clearly an extension of the same switchboard. They insist I need to call the 0844 number.

The fax number 01234 319026 for Bedford County Court still works.

joli wrote on Mar 15^th, 2010 at 4:04pm:

I spoke to the Hitchin court staff last year who then said that the call centre for St Albans and Hitchin County Courts was actually based at Hitchin County Court office. I suspect they are still based there. Now they have apparently roped in Bedford County Court. The email address for the helpdesk for all three courts is the same.

I came across this publication:

http://www.justice.gov.uk/equality-impact-assessments-2009ii.pdf

Ministry of Justice
Equality impact assessments 2009
September 2009


Quote:

EIA 14/09 Policy: Setting up a telephone helpdesk at Hitchin County Court The service is to introduce a telephone helpdesk pilot within the Bedfordshire, Essex and Hertfordshire area and this assessment has been based around the impact of the existing staff, judiciary and customers. No actions have been identified as a result of the completion of this EIA.

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I believe Hitchin County Court's phone numbers to be 01462 445400 to 479.

I suspect that the number you are looking for is one of these.

The 400 numbers starts off with the "Whilst you are waiting for an operator to help you…" recording, whereas the 0844 number rings until someone answers. So I suspect the others that have this recording on are also the never answered queue. The ones I've found are 440, 441, 442 and 443.

444 is published as a fax number, although when I called it (not from a fax machine), it rang with no answer. 479 is sometimes unobtainable and sometimes drops out straight away.

These may be useful in eliminating those which it is not.

The e-mail address is behcchelpdesk@hmcourts-service.gsi.gov.uk

Now that they are closed, the 0844 number is unobtainable and this is the same as it was last night.

At the same time, those numbers such as 445400 and 445440 still go through to the "Whilst you are waiting…" message (that suggests calls are put in the never ending queue). I wondered if any others between 400 to 479 do so as well as they could be eliminated.

I was quite surprised to find this message on the majority of the numbers: 00, 02-09, 14-19, 21-43, 48-55, 57-67, 70-78

Crucially, this gives a short list of only 12 numbers: 01, 10, 11, 12, 13, 20, 45, 46, 47, 56, 68, 69

The helpdesk could be one of these, and it will require some calls during the day when it is open to see. joli, give them a try and let us know how you get on.

Perhaps, as it's a new number, it might be one of the highers, so you might start off with the highest one.  :-/

joli, please can you provide some feedback on what you've found so I can update the listings accordingly?  :)

Dave wrote on Mar 16^th, 2010 at 8:05pm:

At the same time, those numbers such as 445400 and 445440 still go through to the "Whilst you are waiting…" message (that suggests calls are put in the never ending queue). I wondered if any others between 400 to 479 do so as well as they could be eliminated. I was quite surprised to find this message on the majority of the numbers: 00, 02-09, 14-19, 21-43, 48-55, 57-67, 70-78 Crucially, this gives a short list of only 12 numbers: 01, 10, 11, 12, 13, 20, 45, 46, 47, 56, 68, 69

I've tried some of the suggested numbers mid-morning. So far 01, 10, 11, 12, 13, 20 56, 68 and 69 produced no answer. I did get a response on 46 which turned out to be the Hitchin bailiffs office. They questioned me as to where I got the number from and said I need to speak to the helpdesk. As a special favour they offered to transfer me but, after a minute or so wait, this was unsuccessful for unknown reason (perhaps they couldn't afford the 0844 call charge?). They told me to re-dial the helpdesk!

It is possible that all the people on the other extensions were unavailable at the time or had been told not to answer external calls, so it may be worthwhile a go at another time.

This seems to give one number 01462 445446 for Hitchin County Court Bailiffs.

I haven't yet tried 45 and 47 as they're a bit close to 46  ;)

Another line of enquiry I'm following up is the complaints process via the regional director listed here:
http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/infoabout/complaints/directors_region/directors_southeast.htm
So far I've had a written acknowledgement and await further progress.

Maybe others would like to take this up also?

I think that the 0844 number will just direct to one of the 01462 numbers. Thus, an internal transfer to the helpdesk will be to another extension.

I appreciate that in a court they may well be naturally guarded in what they say to unknown callers, but if someone was asked and they told you what extension number they are putting you through to, then that will probably help very much in working out its direct dialling in (DDI) number (the respective 01462 number).

You would also be well advised to withhold your number when doing this so it doesn't appear on the displays of different extensions, in particular, so they don't ignore you because you are that nuisance caller ringing every phone!

The other way to do it is to spread it out by sticking to maybe one number per day. So try one number at various times until you get an answer. Then once you have, leave it while the next day to try another and ascertain its purpose. This would make them less suspicious as extensions wouldn't be ringing sequentially for long periods.

Dave wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2010 at 12:28pm:

I think that the 0844 number will just direct to one of the 01462 numbers. Thus, an internal transfer to the helpdesk will be to another extension.

However, since the Hitchin helpdesk are also serving Bedford and St Albans thransfer to and from those must go through another switchboard altogether.


Quote:

I appreciate that in a court they may well be naturally guarded in what they say to unknown callers, but if someone was asked and they told you what extension number they are putting you through to, then that will probably help very much in working out its direct dialling in (DDI) number (the respective 01462 number). You would also be well advised to withhold your number when doing this so it doesn't appear on the displays of different extensions, in particular, so they don't ignore you because you are that nuisance caller ringing every phone!

Thanks for the tip. I do always withhold my number but have some doubts as to whether their switchboard would honour the withhold. In the same way as your manual withhold is ignored when calling police and related security services, I wonder if courts come under the same regime?

joli wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2010 at 1:47pm:

Dave wrote on Mar 22nd, 2010 at 12:28pm: I think that the 0844 number will just direct to one of the 01462 numbers. Thus, an internal transfer to the helpdesk will be to another extension. However, since the Hitchin helpdesk are also serving Bedford and St Albans thransfer to and from those must go through another switchboard altogether.

I was referring the internal transfer to the helpdesk, such as that attempted by the bailiffs office.

I think that it is quite likely that they can dial from one court to another using internal extension numbers, and hence transfer calls (whether from inside or outside) to another extension number at another site. But we know that the helpdesk which we are looking for the number for is at Hitchin County Court, so there's no point in dialling the local numbers for the others.

joli wrote on Mar 15^th, 2010 at 4:04pm:

Dave wrote on Mar 15th, 2010 at 3:48pm: The 0844 number rings until someone answers it as "County Court Helpdesk". I wonder which court it is answered at. From what we know, it looks like numbers at each court are of the form: Bedford 01234 3190xx Hitchin 01462 4454xx St Albans 01727 7532xx I spoke to the Hitchin court staff last year who then said that the call centre for St Albans and Hitchin County Courts was actually based at Hitchin County Court office. I suspect they are still based there.

The situation has changed following new information received this morning from the regional Courts Service office who now say:
The helpdesk has now been relocated from Hitchin to Luton.
Indeed this is confirmed by looking at their website gives number 0844 892 0550 for Luton County Court. So the disease has now spread to Luton! Unlike the other courts they give no email address for Luton.

Luton's code is 01582 but I don't know the old phone number. Crown court is 01582 522000.

The letter I received also says:
...the new number actually begins 0844 which serves St Albans, Hitchin and Bedford County Courts is charged at local call rate and not a premium rate charge. This number is still charged at local rate when calls are received from outside the geographical area. The use of this number does not generate revenue for HMCS.
No mention of Luton County Court here.

The same letter further says:
The helpdesk has been introduced for HM Court Service to improve the service we provide with the resources available and to bring the service we provide in line with other government departments and organisations. Telephone calls going through the helpdesk mean that certain services we provide can be dealt with centrally.

Any suggestions as to wording of my reply?

joli wrote on Mar 30^th, 2010 at 10:56am:

The letter I received also says: ...the new number actually begins 0844 which serves St Albans, Hitchin and Bedford County Courts is charged at local call rate and not a premium rate charge. This number is still charged at local rate when calls are received from outside the geographical area. The use of this number does not generate revenue for HMCS.

Sadly, these points are all too common in responses.

This idiot should note guidance from the Contact Council, the body formed by representatives of various public sector services:
http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/media/350318/numbering_clarification1002.pdf


Quote:

0843 and 0844 – these are relatively new non-geographic numbers charged at up to 5 pence per minute on some fixed networks and marginally more on others. Calls from mobiles cost considerably more and prices may vary widely between networks. These number ranges are not usually included in call packages.

Also, Trading Standards Institute document 180805 which suggests "local rate" with respect to 084 numbers is against the law due to it being misleading:
http://www.richmond.gov.uk/fair_trading_inc_pricing?article=180805

Also:-

• 0844 is not a "Premium Rate Service" as regulated by PhonepayPlus; this applies to 0871/2/3 and 09xx numbers. However there is a premium attached.
  
• The letter denies receipt of revenue payments; so HMCS receives benefit from callers in the form of reduced service charges by its 0844 communications provider.

joli wrote on Mar 30^th, 2010 at 10:56am:

The same letter further says: The helpdesk has been introduced for HM Court Service to improve the service we provide with the resources available and to bring the service we provide in line with other government departments and organisations. Telephone calls going through the helpdesk mean that certain services we provide can be dealt with centrally. Any suggestions as to wording of my reply?

There are two separate issues:
1. The use of the 0844 premium number.
2. Centralisation of the service.

Clearly you are in opposition to the 0844 revenue charging number. It might be worth giving consideration to where you stand on the issue of the centralisation of the service. If it's not a problem to you, then you could make that clear in your response; that the issue is the "rip-off" number.

joli wrote on Mar 30^th, 2010 at 10:56am:

[...]Any suggestions as to wording of my reply?

You could start with "Dear cretins" and take it from there.

I have now had a reply to my complaint from Court Service HQ. Here is the relevant extract from the reply:

To use an 03xx number there is a cost to the Department, the minimum being 5p per minute to receive a call. The caller is guaranteed the call cost of an 01, 02 call regardless of the normal tariff applied by their carrier.

We have searched for information on the 0844 number and agree with you that it is not a 'Local' call and the term should not have been used as suggested by yourself. Please accept my apologies on behalf of H M Courts Service but it was a honest mistake. We confirm the phrase will not be used again.

In relation to the Essex, Bedfordshire and Hertfordshire contact centre Pilot, originally based in Hitchin, the use of an 03xx number was considered. The decision to go with the 0844 was a local management one after Headquarters gave them all the options. However, there is another Pilot that as far as I am aware went live on 20 April 2010 which is the fore runner of the National Civil Contact Centre. The pilot site is located in Coventry and they are using an 03xx number. In addition, you mention the "Clarification Document" which was published in May 09 and updated in February 2010. The 0844 number was applied for in March 09, so this document did not apply at the time. I can confirm that 03xx numbers are under consideration by the Department but as they have a cost implication it's a business decision.

joli wrote on May 1^st, 2010 at 1:00pm:

To use an 03xx number there is a cost to the Department, the minimum being 5p per minute to receive a call. …

The cost they are charged depends on their choice of provider and services taken. The providers I have seen online charge around a penny or two per minute, tops. So what is so special that they would consider paying 5 pence per minute? :-? :o

At the end of the day, what they are saying in this response is that they must impose a service charge on callers. That is, so they don't have to pay the alleged 5 pence per minute. So they're using a premium number to subsidise their costs and initially claimed it was the same as a local call.  ::)

Dave wrote on May 1^st, 2010 at 1:44pm:

joli wrote on May 1st, 2010 at 1:00pm: To use an 03xx number there is a cost to the Department, the minimum being 5p per minute to receive a call. … The cost they are charged depends on their choice of provider and services taken. The providers I have seen online charge around a penny or two per minute, tops. So what is so special that they would consider paying 5 pence per minute? :-? :o At the end of the day, what they are saying in this response is that they must impose a service charge on callers. That is, so they don't have to pay the alleged 5 pence per minute. So they're using a premium number to subsidise their costs and initially claimed it was the same as a local call.  ::)

I am wondering how to proceed from here. Can I assume that the 0844 number they provide is part of NTS? My understanding of NTS is that somewhere along the process an incoming call to the 0844 number is redirected to a geographic number (01 or 02). If this is correct then there will be an 01/02 number, rather than 0844 being the last resting place of the incoming call.

On the assumption that my understanding is correct I am putting in a Freedom of Information request asking for the 01/02 number that the 0844 number is translated to as well as details of the 0844 provider. Is that a reasonable request or are they likely to find a tecchnical (eg 0844 does not translate to 01/02) or legal objection to this FoI request?

I'm pleased to report that the FoI request worked. The number 0844 892 0550 diverts to 01582 506 728. This number is for Hertford County Court, Luton County Court as well as Hitchin, Bedford and St Albans County Courts. Could you please update the database accordingly.

joli wrote on May 28^th, 2010 at 7:47pm:

I'm pleased to report that the FoI request worked. The number 0844 892 0550 diverts to 01582 506 728. This number is for Hertford County Court, Luton County Court as well as Hitchin, Bedford and St Albans County Courts. Could you please update the database accordingly.

Thanks for that, I've updated the listings.  :)

The note by the entry says that it for Bedford County Court, Hertford County Court, Hitchin County Court, Luton County Court, St Albans County Court & Watford County Court. If you know of any other courts that this applies to, then please post here to let me know and I will add it.

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The cancer has spread to Southend County Court which now publishes 0844 892 4000 for contact.  :'(

I was reading this very old Thread and came across a link that takes you to an uptodate Page which gives the I believe Now phone number of North Tyneside Mag. Court which it states to phone 0191 2960099 because of a Power Cut in Newcastle

http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/infoabout/complaints/directors_region/directors_southeast.htm

I tried to post the link but it wouldn't copy normally so tried Quote as Above - hope it works - This appears to be a News and Emergency Instruction Page that is current - and uptodated whilst the Post it was in was dated 22 Mar 2010 by joli.

Thought I should post this to ask Dave to check out this Linked Page because you may be able to get more info from it on other phone numbers.