Although not a tel. no. issue I thought SCV would be interested in this re HS charges.

I was in my local surgery today and saw a notice that stated anyone seeing a doctor following an RTA would have to pay a £22 fee prior to the initial consultation.

What next? Anyone feeling unwell has to pay a fee.

Why do you have to pay a fee to see your doctor because you have had a car crash or been run down by a car?

This has always been the case and there is nothing new in this. You can claim it back off your insurance (or the third party's)

These notices have always been up in A & E

Really - new one on me. I obvioulsy don't read the notices.

I did think that they charge because you can then claim back from your insurance, however if you are 3rd party and at fault you won't be able to and if you are hit by an uninssured driver you won't be able to make a claim off of their insurance which is particularly relevant if you are 3rd party only or a pedestrian.

Still wrong forum for this so I'll stop now  ::)

Quote:

You can claim it back off your insurance

National Insurance?

Thanks for the concern.

On the basis of some quick research to verify my assumptions, this is all covered by Section 158 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 and permitted under paragraph 484.4 of the GMS contract.

It is done to ensure that the full cost of medical treatment consequential from a motor accident is met by the relevant motor insurance policy. All such policies must include this cover in order to be valid.

The BMA Guidance suggests that an account be presented (rather than cash paid at reception before the appointment), perhaps to be forwarded to the driver or their insurance company.

NHS Hospitals have a direct arrangement for recovery of costs from the insurance companies.

There may well be problems in practice, with unknown drivers etc., however I cannot believe that most GPs and hospitals would not take a sympathetic view. They are unlikely to go through your pockets looking for the money if you arrive at A&E unconcious, or lie dying at the roadside.

I would suggest that anyone seeking treatment in this situation (other than in an emergency) arms themselves with the relevant insurance details and / or police incident reference, if possible. You could try claiming on your insurance for the cost of the phone calls to the GP, insurance company and Police!

lompos wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2009 at 5:00pm:

Quote: You can claim it back off your insurance National Insurance?

Car insurance.

I believe the ambulance service also charges see here

http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080514054947AAcf5qL

Can anyone contradict the following assertion?
Quote:

the only situation in which a citizen could actually suffer a charge under these circumstances is where they were commiting the criminal offence of driving without a proper motor insurance policy in place

If not, then I suggest that we focus on the many remaining issues of genuine concern about continuation of the principles of the NHS, notwithstanding the need to reassure those who may be worried about this matter, or may have had trouble in getting the system to work properly.

I lied when I said I would stop posting because this is not relevant to this thread ;)

Re SCV's question in the last post - on the basis of the notice in my GPs surgery and assuming there isn't extra flexibility not put on the notice the following innocent people would also lose out:

a) Someone with 3rd party insurance who was at fault in the accident
b) Someone with 3rd party insurance hit by an unissured driver
c) A pedestrian/cyclist hit by an unissurred driver

d) Someone with comprehensive insurance who was at fault but who can't make a claim because it is below their excess or does not wish to make a claim because of loss of no claims bonus (will only really apply if no one else is involved and not that likely that both damage is low, but an injury is involved. However it might apply to a young driver where the excess and/or no-claims might be large.)

Someone with 3rd party insurance hit by an unissured driver

Isn't there a fund which us insured drivers pay into, so when you are hit by an uninsured driver it pays out to the victim? This is I believe paid out by your own insurer.


A pedestrian/cyclist hit by an unissurred driver....


This should be covered on their house contents insurance I would have thought


Someone with 3rd party insurance who was at fault in the accident

Good enough reason to go 'fully comp?'

Someone with comprehensive insurance who was at fault but who can't make a claim because it is below their excess or does not wish to make a claim because of loss of no claims bonus (will only really apply if no one else is involved and not that likely that both damage is low, but an injury is involved. However it might apply to a young driver where the excess and/or no-claims might be large.)

For a few extra pounds you can protect your no claims bonus


Anyway, if you damaged your headlight for example, you would not hesitate in going to have it replaced out of your own pocket and that would be far more expensive than paying £22 to get you to hospital.

In any case sadly nothing in this world is free and if they did not charge, I guess the council tax would increase accordingly.

I follow the reasoning behind the recent responses, however I am not sufficiently expert on the ins and outs of insurance to know whether the reasonable assumptions are actually true.

The only reason for picking out dealing with the consequences of road traffic accidents as a reason for NHS charges is to enable the cost to be readily recovered from insurance. I believe that this is the only modest intervention of the "blame culture". Does the GP surgery say that you have to pay if you have a cold because your Mum did not warn you not to go out without a vest, and that you should sue her to recover the money?

If we are to continue this, perhaps someone could take the time to look into both the theory and the practice thoroughly.

I have copied the following from here (my highlights)

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/your_world/travel/traffic_accidents.htm#traffic_accidents


Payment for hospital treatment

Immediate treatment

The driver of a vehicle involved in a road accident may be charged for any emergency medical treatment provided by a doctor (other than one working in or called from a hospital), for example, a doctor who is off duty and happens to be passing by the accident. There is a standard charge plus, in certain circumstances, a mileage allowance. The driver will receive a bill from the doctor some time after the accident. This charge should be included as part of any claim for damages. The driver’s insurance company will usually pay this charge without affecting their no-claims bonus.

Further hospital treatment

In England, Wales and Scotland, if anyone involved in the accident receives further hospital treatment in a non-NHS hospital, as an in-patient or an out-patient, the hospital may claim from the driver’s insurance company up to £2949 for the cost of treatment as an inpatient and up to £295 for the cost of treatment as an outpatient. In Northern Ireland, this applies only to in-patients in both NHS and non-NHS hospitals. The hospital will write to the patient, or their parents if a child was injured, asking for the driver’s name and address, details of their insurance company, whether or not the patient is making a claim against the driver and if a solicitor is acting for the patient.

If someone has a road accident and receives further hospital treatment at an NHS hospital, the Department of Health (in Scotland, the Health Department) can require the insurance company of the other driver to meet some of the costs. Where the driver who caused the accident is not insured or cannot be traced, the costs will be recovered from the Motor Insurers’ Bureau (MIB).

The Department of Health automatically recovers NHS charges from the insurance company on behalf of the hospital. There is no need for the person to be involved in routine cases. In cases where the person takes civil legal action against the other party, there is no need to include a claim for NHS charge recovery.

If you have problems about being asked to pay for medical treatment after a road accident, you should consult an experienced adviser for example, at a Citizens Advice Bureau.

Also from the same source......

Bicycles

If someone has been in an accident involving a bicycle, they should be aware that cyclists do not have to be insured for damage to the bicycle, any other vehicle or for personal injury. However, the cyclist may be covered under another insurance policy, for example, their home contents policy. If the accident happened on the way to or from work, or whilst at work, the person who had the accident may be covered by their employer’s insurance or may be able to obtain advice and assistance from a trade union.

If the cyclist has inadequate insurance it will probably be easier to claim on the insurance of the person who had the accident and let the insurance company take action against anyone who is liable.

Drat I'm replying again!

Sherbert,

Your replies are fine for the likes of me (and I'm guessing you). That is the problem with the system. I can afford the £22 doctor's fee, but equally I won't have to pay it because my insurance company will cover it.

However if you are poor (the people we should be protecting) they will find this costly yet are the ones most likely not to be covered elsewhere.

Re your answers:

If you are poor you probably don't own your home so won't have house/contents insurance. Even if you did £22 will be below the excess.

If you are ill educated you wont reclaim from the MIB and my doctors surgery requires patients to pay upfront.

If you are poor you will have a cheap car so won't have, nor could afford comprehensive insurance. Even if you do have comprehensive insurance if you are poor you will keep the cost down by having a large excess and won't be able to afford protecting your non claims.

I.E. I'm ok jack, but those less able to afford have to pay.

Re someone has to pay - I agree. But this just shuffles the money around and causes extra cost of admin. By charging £22, NHS costs are reduced, but insurance company costs go up, which of course we pay in premiums.

So we are paying for this anyway. It is just the cost is increased with extra admin and the poor pay twice. They pay £22 when they go to the doctor (if they can't claim it back) and they share part of the £22 of all the people who can claim it back from their insurer in increased insurance premiums.

Seems unfair to me that the poor subsidise the well off and also those with the ability to know what to do to reclaim these costs.

This all seems appalling & the last thing anyone involved in a road accident needs to be bothered with when they will have more important issues (eg pain!) on their minds.  My thought is that, if there is such a notice in the surgery, lie to the receptionist about why you wish to see the doctor!  I do see from the posts that, in many, perhaps most, situations, the cost may be payable by someone else or their insurance, I can still see problems where eg a pedestrian is responsible for being hit by a car, a car drives off (getting the reg no may not be a priority), a pedestrian and a bike collide (either being responsible).  Many people do not have house insurance (incredible but true, think about the situation after the 2007 floods), often the poorest so that couldn't cover it and fully comp car insurance is just unaffordable for most drivers under 25.

Just to point out, there is nothing new in all this, I have been driving for 40 years and this has always been the case.

Barbara wrote on Jul 23^rd, 2009 at 9:29am:

My thought is that, if there is such a notice in the surgery, lie to the receptionist about why you wish to see the doctor!  .

That would be fraud and I would not suggest that route, infact I am surprised that you are suggesting it :(

Keith wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2009 at 3:18pm:

Although not a tel. no. issue I thought SCV would be interested in this re HS charges. I was in my local surgery today and saw a notice that stated anyone seeing a doctor following an RTA would have to pay a £22 fee prior to the initial consultation. What next? Anyone feeling unwell has to pay a fee. Why do you have to pay a fee to see your doctor because you have had a car crash or been run down by a car?

My surgery has a £45. fee, payable before treatment IF you are asking for treatment due to RTA if you have not previously been to A&E.

Sherbert, I have never thought it was a receptionist's business to know why I wish to see a GP - consultations are supposed to be confidential!

Barbara wrote on Jul 23^rd, 2009 at 11:10am:

Sherbert, I have never thought it was a receptionist's business to know why I wish to see a GP - consultations are supposed to be confidential!

Not these days, when I have gone to or telephoned the receptionist and ask for blood test results ot whatever, she looks at my file on the computer and tells me. I think you will find that consultations are confidential to the practice and not the doctor. If you should see a different doctor to your usual one he has access to your details, so from then on the confidentiality has been dispersed.