For media enquiries, e-mail dave {at} saynoto0870 {dot} com

---

Q&A ON THE CHANGES

I think it will be helpful to explain revenue sharing and what will happen for those telephone providers, like Virgin Media, that choose to retail calls to 0870 numbers at higher rates than geographical (01/02) calls following the changes. They will be the ones ripping off consumers rather than banks and insurance companies, as it is at the moment.


What is a revenue sharing number?

Use of a revenue sharing number allows an organisation to take a share of the call charges, either directly in cash and/or offset against the cost of other telephony services. In both cases, the organisation receiving the call is charging the caller directly for use of the service.

What types of number are revenue sharing?

Up until 1 August, 0870 is a revenue sharing range. Others are 0844, 0845 and 0871. The exact same principle that underlies these numbers functions on "premium rate service" numbers starting 09; just to allow the call recipient to impose a greater charge on the caller.

What is happening on 1 August? Is Ofcom simply banning revenue sharing on 0870?

From a practical point of view, the changes that Ofcom is making will almost certainly result in the ceasation of revenue sharing. It is the framework which facilitates revenue sharing that is being removed and it is this which is the real bone of contention and reason for saying no to 0870.

What is the framework that facilitates the revenue sharing process and how is it being changed on 1 August?

To answer this, it is necessary to understand how a telephone call is connected from caller to receiver and the way in which call charges a divided up. I present an example to illustrate the point:

Let us consider a telephone call where calling and receiving parties are with different telephone companies. The caller is with BT and the person they are calling has a Virgin Media telephone line. BT takes the call from its customer and carries it along its wires (network) until it gets to a point where it inter-connects with Virgin Media. The call is then carried by Virgin Media's network to its customer who is the destination party in this example.

Virgin Media imposes a charge on BT for connecting this call to its customer. With a revenue sharing call, such as 0870 (prior to 1 August), this wholesale inter-operator "termination charge" is far greater than had the call been made to a normal geographical number. Such a circumstance would allow Virgin Media to "revenue share" with its customer.

The changes will see the termination charges for 0870 brought right down. The reduction in this "wholesale" burden on call retailers, such as BT in this example, will be such that they will be able to include these type of calls in packages and at the same rate as geographical destinations.

This is akin to a manufacturer lowering the amount it charges for a particular product. Such a move will allow the reduction to be passed through the supply chain and/or absorbed by it.

Come 1 August, some telephone companies, including Virgin Media, have chosen to retail 0870 calls at higher rates than geographical (01/02) numbers. Does this mean that revenue sharing is continuing in such cases?

No. If some telephone call providers choose to charge more, then the extra call revenue is going into their pocket, rather than being collected and passed on for the benefit of the organisations receiving calls, as is the case at present.

Companies such as Virgin Media have chosen not to pass on the savings, instead retaining them as additional profit. So in real terms, this amounts to a price increase.

Note that in this question and answer I am referring to Virgin Media in its capacity as the caller's telephone company rather than, as in the previous question, the receiver's telco.

Some telephone call providers have continued charging 0870 calls at a premium to normal geographical or landline calls. Others have reduced them, bringing them into line with their charges for geographical calls. For those telephone companies I have discovered which they have done, I have listed them below.

Where the company name is a hyperlink, it goes to the relevant page giving the information about what it intends to do with regards 0870 charging come 1 August.

Hall of Shame: Those providers that charge more for 0870 calls than they do for geographical calls

• BT Payphones
  
• Orange - from 1 September 2009, pay as you go customers will pay 40 pence per minute at all times.
  
• Virgin Media - will continue to charge just under 10 pence per minute at all times

Hall of Fame: Those providers that reduced their 0870 charges and made them the same as those for geographical destinations on or after 1 August

• BT
  
• Sky Talk
  
• The Phone Co-op

Reserved for future use.

Reserved for future use.

Dave wrote on Jul 31^st, 2009 at 9:37am:

Others will be reducing them and bringing them into line with their charges for geographical calls. The following is a list of those who have said what they intend to do. Hall of Fame: Those providers that will align their 0870 charges with those for geographical destinations from 1 August onwards: BT

So, just BT then.

Incredible.

Hello,

As Mobile operators, Virgin still charges high rates for calling 0870 numbers even though there is no termination fees (although it still cost a little bit more than geographical numbers for most operators to send call to 0870 numbers), we have now changed QX Call
(http://www.qxcall.co.uk/qxcall ) prepaid product to allow calls to 0870 numbers at 2.1p/min at all time ( with a 5p minimum charge) via 01/03 indirect access numbers.

Government departments such as DVLA appeared to continue to use 0870 numbers as opposed to 03 (at great cost to tax payers !).

We will also offer an additional 10% credit for the first order (just quote saynoto0870) until 8-8-2009.

I hope this does not break the advertising rules as it does solve a genuine problem that users here faces.

Thanks
Steven

I find this whole thread and issue remarkable - BT appear to be coming out of it with flying colours but let us remember that they are not giving away free calls to 0870 numbers AT ALL; there is a fixed cost per month of £4.95 and the call allowance is only 1,000 minutes. 'Lies, damn lies and statistics' we say or 'give it in one hand and taketh away with the other'.  i.e. they have recently announced that minimum call charge of 9p (nine pence) on those customers not on anytime plan - which is most of us.

Now lets consider what this means - if you dial a number and they are not there - which, in most cases this is the case, then BT pocket the 9 p (nine pence) and none gets past back to the consumer, so I think Virgin Media are OK to continue to charge for 0870 as people who care will see through the BT offer. I cant believe Ofcom allow BT to get away with their antics.

We applaud those organisations that that have been early adopters of *** link removed by Dave ***

I suppose if mobile ops can get away with 20p (err...actually now 40p on Orange Prepay) to 0800... any one can get away with anything.

Any most bizarre (which I wa victim once) was someone setting up an entire range of 09 £1.50 per minute to answer and say "this number is not currently configured".  One digit wrong and you are are £1.50 out of pocket. Guess what...Phonepayplus not interested...

In general, I believe pricing transparency is more important than the price itself.  
--
Steven / QX Telecom Ltd http://www.qxcall.co.uk
Cheaper calls to 08xx from mobiles via QX Call (2.1p to 0870, 0845 : 3.95/1/1 to 0845 via 01/03 indirect access)

noelster wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2009 at 12:03pm:

I find this whole thread and issue remarkable - BT appear to be coming out of it with flying colours but let us remember that they are not giving away free calls to 0870 numbers AT ALL; there is a fixed cost per month of £4.95 and the call allowance is only 1,000 minutes. 'Lies, damn lies and statistics' we say or 'give it in one hand and taketh away with the other'.  i.e. they have recently announced that minimum call charge of 9p (nine pence) on those customers not on anytime plan - which is most of us.

Different providers offer different services at different prices, that's the nature of any free market. When a supermarket offers "buy one get one free" on a particular product, should there be a notice to say that it isn't actually free (in the true sense) and that the cost is actually offset in charges elsewhere?


noelster wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2009 at 12:03pm:

Now lets consider what this means - if you dial a number and they are not there - which, in most cases this is the case, then BT pocket the 9 p (nine pence) and none gets past back to the consumer, so I think Virgin Media are OK to continue to charge for 0870 as people who care will see through the BT offer. I cant believe Ofcom allow BT to get away with their antics.

The whole rip-off "connection fee" or "call set-up charge" as BT call it, is something which Virgin Media has used for a number of years. Such a method of charging helps distort the true call price; the minimum call charge is much fairer.

As a member of the industry, you well know that the termination charges imposed on Virgin Media for 0870 calls have been lowered, so in real terms, by maintaining the retail price, it is infact increasing the call charge. Bizarrely, you condone this, probably because it's OK so long as BT doesn't do it.

I also refer back to your previous question which, as an industry member, you well know the answer to:


noelster wrote on Jul 27^th, 2009 at 11:09pm:

But most importantly of all - Most companies have been moving away from 0870 to 0844 which are not included in the plan - why not ?

For those who don't know, the reason BT doesn't discount 0844 numbers is because the telephone providers that operate them don't want it to because they will loose out!

Instead, they suggest BT should act as a charity to other telephone companies by operating such calls at a loss.


noelster wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2009 at 12:03pm:

We applaud those organisations that that have been early adopters of *** link removed by Dave ***

Please stop spamming the forum with links to your own company. There is a line between making a point by using such a link and spamming and the way in which you are writing has transgressed it. You are evidently posting as representative of your company as you constantly refer to "we". Steven from qxtelecom makes no secret of this fact and I politely request you do the same.

A list of users of 03 numbers is on SAYNOTO0870.COM here.

Dave wrote on Jul 31^st, 2009 at 9:37am:

Some telephone call providers have continued charging 0870 calls at a premium to normal geographical or landline calls. Others have reduced them, bringing them into line with their charges for geographical calls. For those telephone companies I have discovered which they have done, I have listed them below. Hall of Fame: Those providers that have aligned their 0870 charges with those for geographical destinations from 1 August BT Sky Talk

Dave, new to your forum but interested in your comment on Skytalk.
I use them and have their free 24/7 geographic calls, plus several International calls free, BUT Sky do charge me quite a premium if I use 0870 etc. numbers.
Presumably this cost reduction you refer to above is unlikely to filter down to my calls, or is it?

Hi Towry,

Yap, Sky used to charge 0870 like BT, then hike the price to 10p I think. But post 1st August, they have now make it normal call:

http://www.sky.com/portal/site/skycom/skyproducts/skytalk/pricesandoptions

UK calls are to 01, 02, 03 & 0870 numbers only (excludes calls to Channel Islands, indirect access numbers, dial-up Internet access and 070 numbers). C

towny wrote on Aug 4^th, 2009 at 10:14am:

Dave, new to your forum but interested in your comment on Skytalk. I use them and have their free 24/7 geographic calls, plus several International calls free, BUT Sky do charge me quite a premium if I use 0870 etc. numbers. Presumably this cost reduction you refer to above is unlikely to filter down to my calls, or is it?

I have revised my explanation of this "Hall of Fame" to read "Those providers that reduced their 0870 charges and made them the same as those for geographical destinations on or after 1 August".

It's only 4 August and the changes only took effect on 1 August, so calls made before this date are still being billed. I listed Sky Talk as charging 0870 calls the same as 01/02/03 ones having seen the footnote on its page which qxtelecom pointed to.

qxtelecom wrote on Aug 4^th, 2009 at 10:28am:

Hi Towry, Yap, Sky used to charge 0870 like BT, then hike the price to 10p I think. But post 1st August, they have now make it normal call: http://www.sky.com/portal/site/skycom/skyproducts/skytalk/pricesandoptions UK calls are to 01, 02, 03 & 0870 numbers only (excludes calls to Channel Islands, indirect access numbers, dial-up Internet access and 070 numbers). C

Thanks for the info. it has made me look a bit more carefully at the actual non-geo numbers, good to see Sky have now included 0870 numbers as part of the free package, however firms like Free-UK-numbers appear to encourage their clients to opt for 0871 or 0701 numbers.
Sky also make no mention of the charges for 0844/5 numbers on this web page, on my last price change letter dated 28/3/08 these were listed as 6p per minute, I wonder if these are changing.
Being a cynic I suspect that most higher rate non geo lines have migrated away from 0870, which is why Sky are now prepared to give 0870's away for free.
Looks as though i will still need to study SAYNOTO0870 for most of my non geo calls.

Hi Towny,

Use this : http://www.sky.com/portal/site/skycom/skyproducts/skytalk/pricesandoptions/specialisednumbers
for other non geo. First locate the charge band,
then  get the prices here: http://www.sky.com/portal/site/skycom/skyproducts/skytalk/pricesandoptions/tariffguide

Their are various use of non geo, and whether it is fair, it all depend on circumstances.  If a firm make a mistake and you have
to pay to complain, then it does not make sense.  If you want some info, then it may be fair way for the firm to use a higher
rate number to cover their staff time as well as to ensure that no time wasters call.

Sky are not excessive in its charging to these non geos.  Why mobile ops mainly charge so much is another matter....

I hadn't realised the ofcom rules were so flakey.

My phone company changed 0870 call charges to be the same as standard national calls from 1st August - I just presumed that's what everyone was doing. This makes 0870 free on some tariffs.

My phone company - The Phone Co-op - don't charge a connection fee either on chargeable calls either.

I've never really thought of the Phone Co-op as price competitive (I'm with them for ethical reasons). Given what my mobile company are trying to charge for 08xx calls, I might investigate The Phone Co-op's mobile tariffs, too.

chalktalk wrote on Aug 9^th, 2009 at 3:23pm:

My phone company changed 0870 call charges to be the same as standard national calls from 1st August - I just presumed that's what everyone was doing. This makes 0870 free on some tariffs. My phone company - The Phone Co-op - don't charge a connection fee either on chargeable calls either. I've never really thought of the Phone Co-op as price competitive (I'm with them for ethical reasons). Given what my mobile company are trying to charge for 08xx calls, I might investigate The Phone Co-op's mobile tariffs, too.

A quick glance (although Heinz might be able to shed more light on it) suggests yes it is very competitive.

In some cases, local and national calls cost different rates, but not much more than a penny a minute during the day separates them where they do. Calls to 03 numbers are aligned with local rates and 0870 with national rates. The rip-off call set-up fee or connection charge is no where to be seen and calls are billed to the nearest second rather than the nearest minute with BT, Virgin Media, Talk Talk and others.

There may be other differences. BT and others have gone down the road of whole minute billing, connection charges, rounding an individual call charge up to the next whole penny (before VAT is added) to distort the actual cost of calls, thereby making it look as if calls are lower than they actually are.

From 1 October BT's daytime call rate (where they are not inclusive) will be 5.25 pence per minute plus 9.05 pence call set-up. That's 14.95 pence minimum charge, (with the call charge rounded to the next penny and then VAT added). The BT minimum charge used to be 5 pence with none of this call set-up rubbish.  :'( :'(