Can someone please explain how it is that BT now offer dialing of 087 and other non-geographic numbers as part of their free service whereas Virgin still charge a premium rate for 087 numbers and exclude other non-geographic numbers from their free dialing list?   -----   Maxadolf >:(

Ahem...BT do not offer a 'free service'. You pay a monthly line rental, so the service is not free.

0870 and 0845 are 'inclusive' depending which calling plan you are on, as are 01, 02 & 03 numbers

Maxadolf wrote on Oct 18^th, 2009 at 12:22pm:

Can someone please explain how it is that BT now offer dialing of 087 and other non-geographic numbers as part of their free service whereas Virgin still charge a premium rate for 087 numbers and exclude other non-geographic numbers from their free dialing list?   -----   Maxadolf >:(

Calls to 0870 numbers are part of inclusive packages from BT. Also with BT, where they are chargeable, they are at the same rate as 01/02/03 calls.

0871 numbers remain as they were.

The reason Virgin still charges a premium is down to itself. For 0870 calls, the "premium" charge imposed on providers like BT and Virgin was removed on 1 August. BT has chosen to reflect this in its retail prices by bringing its rates in line with 01/02/03 calls.

Virgin, on the other hand, charges for 0870 at the same level as before the changes and that's its choice. This is in real terms an increase because Virgin now makes far more on 0870 calls than before.

Perhaps I should have put "free" in inverted comas.  My point was, why is it that Virgin do not offer a package that is inclusive of non-geographic numbers without the usual premium charge?.   Is it simply a case of ownership?   ::)

Maxadolf wrote on Oct 18^th, 2009 at 12:51pm:

Perhaps I should have put "free" in inverted comas.  My point was, why is it that Virgin do not offer a package that is inclusive of non-geographic numbers without the usual premium charge?.   Is it simply a case of ownership?   ::)

Because Virgin chooses to charge the premium, even though the premium is no longer levied on it.

Very interesting to note that there is a distinction between 0870 and 0871 numbers, one that I and many telecon users had not picked up on  -  thanks to Dave.

Caveat emptor!

8-)

If your only access to a landline is one provided Virgin Media, then I *think* that the best way to call 0870 numbers is through 18185.  ;)

[Other members should be able to clarify this]

Perhaps we should take this a little further, at the risk of adding to the confusion that already exists. There is much more, but I hope that this will be enough for now.

0845, 0844, 0871 and 09xx numbers are all used to pass money from the caller to the called person, through the respective telephone companies. This used to be the case with 0870, but that ended on 1 August. In all cases this means that part of what is paid by the caller is available to the called person, either as cash or perhaps as a subsidy on the cost of their telephone service.

0871 and 09xx numbers are designated by Ofcom as being used for “Premium Rate Services” and are therefore regulated specially. There is nevertheless a Premium Rate applied to calls to 0845 and 0844 numbers.

The amount of revenue that BT can retain on all of these calls is limited by regulation. This means that the vast majority of the charge paid to BT is in fact the Premium. There are no such regulations applied to other providers, or to the cost of geographic calls through BT.

BT’s unregulated rates for ordinary calls (when not covered by a package) have long been greater than those for calling 0845 numbers, which have a relatively small premium - around 1.5p per minute. It has therefore been possible for BT to add 0845 calls to those included in packages with only a relatively modest increase to the price of the package.

This charge for ordinary calls has been steadily rising - by over 30% in the last 12 months - as part of BT’s efforts to promote its most inclusive packages. It has now overtaken that for the most expensive 0844 ranges. As the premium on these is around 4p per minute it would be “financial suicide” for these to be included in packages. (The quote is not an official statement from BT, but a comment passed in a private discussion about the feasibility of packages being extended in this way.)


Apart from the disgraceful decision to retain the premium charge on calls to 0870 numbers, when this is simply extra income for themselves, Virgin Media and the Mobile companies “play it straight” by passing on the extra cost that they incur when paying over a revenue share. There may be arguments about whether the premium is disproportionate, however that raises the question of whether their price for ordinary calls is kept artificially low as a result of competition.

Because of its unique regulatory situation, it is BT that is the odd one out - although there are a few other providers who simply copy its tariffs. It is perverse to charge less for calls that cost more to connect. It is therefore quite wrong to use BT as an example of telephone tariffs, with the comment that “other providers may vary”, it should be the other way around.

Whilst only 0871 and other ranges are designated as being used for “Premium Rate Services”, we must remember and continue to point out to the world that all 084 calls include a Premium Charge. This is sometimes hidden in a package fee or by the fact that the cost of comparable ordinary calls can include a greater premium - the penalty charge for calling outside the times when they are covered by a package.

BT is already required by regulation to effectively cross-subsidise the price for calls to 0845 numbers so that it may cover its overheads and produce a return for its shareholders. Adding them to its packages does nothing to change this. Do we want Virgin Media and the mobile operators to be required to do the same, or to do so voluntarily?

Lest we forget, 0843 numbers are now in use (an extension of the 0844 range - cost from a BT line of between 0.5p and 5p per minute depending on the 5th, 6th and 7th digits).

Similarly, 0872 and 0873 numbers are now in use (both are extensions of the 0871 range - cost from a BT line of between 6p and 10p per minute depending on the 5th, 6th and 7th digits).

Sending a text which states your business and requests a reply from the company concerned is a useful counter move. Any business worth it's salt will surely respond to a customer if only to further it's own ends. If on the other hand there is no alternative to using an 0870#, on the call being answered immediately  provide your name and telephone number and politely and firmly request an immediate callback. With the right manner adopted, this is very effective.

For those ready to take the matter a little further, it may be worth asking a current user of a 0870 number why they are still subjecting callers to premium charges from many telephone companies after having ceased to gain any benefit for themselves.

0870 users have four migration options available to them:

- 0871 - to continue to benefit from revenue share, but falling within the scope of "Premium Rate Services" regulation
- 0844 - to continue to benefit from revenue share at a slightly lower rate
- 03xx (possibly their old number with only the second digit changed) - the same cost for the non-geographic number features as 0870, but with callers never paying more than the cost of a geographic call (in some cases less)
- a geographic number - possibly a higher cost for any sophisticated features required on the line.

One could also ask one's own telephone company why they continue to charge a premium rate when they no longer incur the cost of revenue sharing.