Hi All
Abbey (Santander)
Are actively stopping people from using this number  01908 237963 unless they are phoning from abroad.  They are also trying to stop the use of their 0800 numbers as a way of getting to customer services re personal accounts.  Are they obtaining money when people use the 0870 & 0845 numbers?



Primo UK

Hi and welcome to SAYNOTO0870.COM.

Abbey is evidently trying to mirror its sister company, Alliance & Leicester (more on A&L customers who have been "banned" from calling non-premium numbers here).

When you call the 01908 number, make sure you withhold your number, although there's no guarantee that that will have any effect.


From 1 August the process that supported revenue sharing on 0870 numbers was scrapped. BT and some other providers have reacted by bringing their 0870 prices into line with 01/02/03 calls, although notably Virgin Media and the mobile operators have not.

You ask whether companies on 0845 numbers are obtaining money, but that's not the real point. Regardless of whether they revenue share directly with their telephone provider, they are benefitting through subsidy from callers. This happens in all cases, regardless of whether the caller is on an inclusive tariff or not.

For this reason, if they wish to operate a non-geographical number, they should switch to a 03xx one. These are are cost-neutral, that is they are priced inline with geographical calls for everyone.

Many thanks for the info

Primo UK

Hi there!

Surely, it must be possible to contact Abbey via their Spanish owners.  I do believe, that there are telecoms companies such as Easydial and Alpha Telecom that could be used to circum vent these 0845 and 0870 prefix numbers, via a telephone call to Satander in Spain.

James Bond

It still doesn't work using the 141 in front. It somehow detects that the call is still a UK call in origin and tells you to ring the premium rate number.  I am going to try with my 'charged up' e-kit telecoms account as that has the effect of making the call appear 'International' in origin.  The call won't be free but still probably less than dialling Abbey's NGN number!

The telephone network provides receiving telcos with not only the CLI (which can be withheld), but also the originating location data, the first part of the calling number (which cannot, as there are no personal privacy implications).

This data is available for use in routing calls to a local, or otherwise appropriate, point. It can therefore be used to advise callers that they have called a number not intended for their use.

Just a thought, I was going to ask this elsewhere as it is general but also seems to fit the exchange here - if you have inclusive minutes on a mobile and use these to call an organisation via the international number, ensuring you dial to whole number including the international code (which you can do within the UK from a mobile), surely the receiving organisation won't know where you are as they will just get the mobile no & you could be calling from anywhere in the world?

Yes Barbara - thanks for your posting. Yes it works.  Dial 00 44 1908 xxxxxx and you get through.  I think that this is probably the only way that we can ring these kinds of numbers in the future as their telcoms software is getting wise to the origin of the calls even with using CLI withold facility.

It is now a ridiculous state of affairs now that a mobile has to be cheaper than phoning a UK NGN or that it should be cheaper to phone say for example, Microsoft or Dell in America using 18185 or other provider than phoning the premium rate UK NGN and, YES, I do regard 0845 & 0870 as being premium rate as I have a fixed fee landline calling plan with Virgin Media, but in addition to the fixed fee I pay for total UK talk, I am surcharged on top of this for every minute I am connected to an 0844/4/70 number, so I avoid them like the plague!

Alternative wrote on Nov 19^th, 2009 at 11:50am:

Yes Barbara - thanks for your posting. Yes it works.  Dial 00 44 1908 xxxxxx and you get through.  I think that this is probably the only way that we can ring these kinds of numbers in the future as their telcoms software is getting wise to the origin of the calls even with using CLI withold facility.

For those of us without inclusive minutes (on a mobile or landline), what about calling via 1899/18185/18866 (they all present 'International' as a CLI to my BT line)?

Heinz wrote on Nov 19^th, 2009 at 4:34pm:

Alternative wrote on Nov 19th, 2009 at 11:50am: Yes Barbara - thanks for your posting. Yes it works.  Dial 00 44 1908 xxxxxx and you get through.  I think that this is probably the only way that we can ring these kinds of numbers in the future as their telcoms software is getting wise to the origin of the calls even with using CLI withold facility. For those of us without inclusive minutes (on a mobile or landline), what about calling via 1899/18185/18866 (they all present 'International' as a CLI to my BT line)?

Just tried it on mine and it presents the number in normal national format.  :-?

Good work both.

It therefore seems that the location information provided with calls from mobiles does not cause this system to reject them.

Trying to dial the number using the international format does not make any difference. My (Nokia) mobile replaces 0044 at the front of a number with a 0, as it also replaces + with 00. It is therefore not possible for me to force a UK call to be routed through an international exchange, which may be thought to be the factor that makes the difference.

A simple test shows that dialling 01908 237963 from a mobile gets through to the IVR, whereas from a landline a message advises that one must redial.

The next question to ask is of whether the blocking technique is intended to ensure that overseas callers get easier access (e.g. a shorter wait and thereby a reduction in the sizable cost of calling from overseas) or if it is simply to protect the revenue share subsidy.

A liberalised market in telecoms (as in any other area) will inevitably lead to perverse situations arising. Is "Alternative" asking for services like 18185 and Ryanair, as well as all special offers by retailers, to be prohibited, so that all can appear sensible? Many of us would indeed wish to see the regulatory limitations on the price that BT can charge for calls to 084 numbers lifted, although some would be reluctant to be seen to be calling for prices to increase!

All calls to 084 numbers are charged at a premium rate, because the higher termination fee has to be funded somehow. I believe that it is fairer for this cost to be carried by those who call these numbers, rather than by telephone users in general. The perverse effect with BT is created by the fact that the premium on calls to 084 numbers is on top of an unusually low margin (nominally 0) that is set by regulation. No business can operate without a margin, so the cost of ordinary calls is obviously higher. These regulations do not apply to Virgin Media, which therefore reflects its costs more directly in its charges. These include a premium on calls to all 084 numbers.

I often pretend surprise at the fact that those who use 084 numbers are not disappointed that they are not designated as providers of "Premium rate services". Some even argue furiously to claim that the standard of their service is unworthy of such recognition.

Hey all...

This is a situation that is beginning to grate me!

I only became aware of the block on the 01908 number in January 2010 and it seemed to coincide with the change to Santander.

I emailed the UK chairman, Antonio.Osorio@santander.co.uk, asking him if the blocking of calls to 01908 237963 was one of 'the changes we think you may like' as advertised in 2009.

Mr Osorio forwarded it onto one of his footsoldiers who advised me that if I had a complaint I should call the 0845 complaints number! In disbelief, I forwarded the reply back to him, asking for his thoughts on it, only for him to delegate it again. I know he did this personally as he was in the email trail.

So..... no success with the 141 from a landline. International calls are barred from my mobile so yet to try the +44 option.

Here is where I got angry... I went to the local cashpoint to pay my credit card. They still, after 4 months, had not set this facility up. So I walked a mile and a half to the nearest branch, and they asked why I didn't just call customer services so I explained to cost of the call. They then said 'oh, well you could always come into the branch and use our phone for free'. So, to avoid being charged 40p a minute to talk about my money I have to do a 3 mile round trip? WHAT!!!!!

Now, the Alliance and Leicester similarity does seem to stand true. I cant help but wonder though if Santers spanish customers are ripped off in a similar fashion.

So, I called the complaints line and the woman got rather aggressive and told me to wite to the financial ombudsman.

WHY, AT A TIME WHERE THE BANKS ARE GETTING SUCH BAD PRESS, ARE THEY USING THESE METHODS TO CLAW WHAT IS, TO THEM, AN ABSOLUTELY NEGLIGABLE AMOUNT OF SUBSIDY?? AS FOR SWITCHING BANKS, THEY ALL USE THE SAME FLAMING NUMBERS!!!

Rant over! Sorry!!

floella2 wrote on Mar 28^th, 2010 at 11:53pm:

WHY, AT A TIME WHERE THE BANKS ARE GETTING SUCH BAD PRESS, ARE THEY USING THESE METHODS TO CLAW WHAT IS, TO THEM, AN ABSOLUTELY NEGLIGABLE AMOUNT OF SUBSIDY?? AS FOR SWITCHING BANKS, THEY ALL USE THE SAME FLAMING NUMBERS!!!

Hi Floella

No they don`t, have a look at http://www.lloydstsb.com/ways_to_bank_with_us/phonebank.asp?WT.ac=HPwtbPhone

Here you have a choice of the 0845 no. or a geo no. if you prefer.

Works for me.  ;)

floella2 wrote on Mar 28^th, 2010 at 11:53pm:

WHY, AT A TIME WHERE THE BANKS ARE GETTING SUCH BAD PRESS, ARE THEY USING THESE METHODS TO CLAW WHAT IS, TO THEM, AN ABSOLUTELY NEGLIGABLE AMOUNT OF SUBSIDY?? AS FOR SWITCHING BANKS, THEY ALL USE THE SAME FLAMING NUMBERS!!!

I use Nationwide, now excluding their Branches they have an Geographic number to call most departments: click here for more info: just note that it is listed in International Format.. just drop the +44 and replace it with 0

:)

I went into my A&L branch a few weeks ago to make an appointment to open an ISA early in the new financial year.

The nice young man who made the appointment insisted on printing out details for me - and a local (01) number was shown on the letterhead!

I noticed it that evening and, as I have free evening calls, I tried it about 7:15pm.  It worked and, after 5 or 6 rings, the same young man answered!

Needless to say, that number is now in the database.

Heinz wrote on Mar 30^th, 2010 at 3:07pm:

I went into my A&L branch a few weeks ago to make an appointment to open an ISA early in the new financial year. The nice young man who made the appointment insisted on printing out details for me - and a local (01) number was shown on the letterhead! I noticed it that evening and, as I have free evening calls, I tried it about 7:15pm.  It worked and, after 5 or 6 rings, the same young man answered! Needless to say, that number is now in the database.

I was surprised when I opened an account with them that the business card I got given had a local 01904 number it (01904 640 506) - just added this to the database which can be verified.

Using the branch locator on this page: http://www.alliance-leicester.co.uk/home/index.aspx   will get you the branch geographic number  ;)

It's contacting their Customer Services which is the problem  >:(

reserved wrote on Apr 11^th, 2010 at 5:35pm:

It's contacting their Customer Services which is the problem  >:(

Having said that I used 0800 0566066 yesterday with no problems  :)

Still no joy with Abbey though? Walked a mile to my local branch today a) out of principle and b) because it was sunny!

I would love a proper number for these guys because other than blocking calls to 01908, I have been reasonably happy with them.

Any joy anybody? I have made my feelings clear to the complaints team and even emailed the CEO but as yet it hasnt been taken seriously.

Usually a CEO would ensure that the customer gets a reply, because I do believe he wants to keep the customer.  Who knows in this day and age.

James Bond

The CEO forwarded onto his Executive Support Team, and they replied with an 0845 number for the complaints dept.

I forwarded this back to the CEO, who again forwarded it to his Executive Support Team. This time he failed to remove his email header so it was quite clear to see that he was the initial recipient.

Amongst other things, I asked him if our Spanish counterparts have to call a premium rate number to discuss their money. (Anyone remember Rip Off Britain? Other couuntries must see us as mugs!)

However, my questions were not answered!

The gentleman's email address is Antonio.Osorio@santander.co.uk if you wish to raise any issues with him.

Please move the 0800 092 2212 alternative for 0845 600 4388 to the Verified list.

Dialling from my landline, I used it this afternoon and, following the IVR menus, got through successfully to discuss transactions on my current account.

floella2 wrote on Apr 21^st, 2010 at 2:30pm:

Amongst other things, I asked him if our Spanish counterparts have to call a premium rate number to discuss their money. (Anyone remember Rip Off Britain? Other couuntries must see us as mugs!) However, my questions were not answered!

I know this is late but I only just saw this thread due to the more recent last post.

However I can assure you that problems with the use of ripoff 902 contact centre numbers in Spain in general and in particular when calling them from Spanish mobiles and for Santander itself are every bit as bad as in the UK.

Spanish 902 numbers widely used for customer service lines (including those run by Santander in Spain) cost 58 cents or around 50p per minute to call from my Orange Spain mobile.  Also in Spain there is no ASA or other regulator who forces users of 902 numbers to disclose the vast additional call cost.  They are always presented as though they are a normal number.   As all other Spanish landline numbers also begin with a 9 it is very easy to become confused about this as a foreigner.

I did not know 902 numbers in Spain cost 58 cents per minute till I ran out of credit in only five minutes on my Orange Spain mobile when trying to call their English speaking 902 customer service line.  Their ordinary customer service line on 470 is free to call from an Orange Mobile but they refuse to deal with you if can only speak halting tourist Spanish like I can.  Instead they cut you off an text you telling you to call the 902 number but not telling you it costs 58 cents per minute plus connection fee of up to 30 cents.  900 numbers by contrast are Freephone numbers from a landline including a public pay phone but not from a mobile.

Coming back to Santander as you can see from the Spanish equivalent of saynoto0870.com at http://wiki.nmn900.net/Banco_Santander the use of 902 numbers by Santander in Spain is widespread as also confirmed at http://www.santander.com/csgs/Satellite/CFWCSancomQP01/es_ES/Corporativo/Contactos.html  They do list a different geographic number to call them from overseas but what is the betting that is blocked if you call it from within Spain?

The current description of 902 numbers and their cost at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telephone_numbers_in_Spain is completely wrong and I will have to try and attempt to correct it.  This should be fairly easy to do given that it is in English.

Given the general Spanish tendency to ignore almost all forms of complaint and bury them I bet it takes even longer for Spanish companies to comply with the forthcoming EU directive than their counterparts here in the United Kingdom. :o :( :'(