I'm just wondering what the savings are when companies that use 0870 numbers are so conciencous about disableing known direct dial numbers.  

How many times do I have to dial a blocked number (which of course we are charged for) before it was fiscally more prudent just to call the 0870 number?

Regards

SP

What are you trying to imply, that this site is a waste of time? Of course, the exact answer will depend what tariff you are on. Many people don't pay for geographical calls, so it'll cost them no extra if they call a blocked number (and this is assuming the companies have replaced the number with a recorded message - if it's simply disconnected you won't pay anyway).

I have to say, I have never found myself in the situation you describe. The database isn't perfect, some numbers are found to be either not connected or go through to the wrong department, but I've never known a number play a message.

Any numbers that no longer work should be reported so that they can be removed from the database. Then no-one else has to make a wasted call.

Ok Jrawle lets not get off to the wrong foot, it's easy to do over the written media.  Correct me if I'm wrong, the original reason for this site was to reduce the cost to customers when ringing companies, now whilst Ofcom has rulled that 0870 numbers should cost no more that 01?? numbers, only BT has taken notice of this, Virgin (I believe) and mobile phone companies don't include 0870 in the all incluseive dial plans of free or inclusive call numbers whilst 01?? numbers are.

I suppose my point if any is that if you are calling from a BT line, you might as well use the 0870 number instead of using 01?? numbers that may be disabled or used within the owner company for other purposes where you will incure a greater cost.

Regards
SP

ScarletPimpernel wrote on Feb 8^th, 2010 at 2:32pm:

I suppose my point if any is that if you are calling from a BT line, you might as well use the 0870 number instead of using 01?? numbers that may be disabled or used within the owner company for other purposes where you will incure a greater cost.

Hello and welcome to SAYNOTO0870.COM.

The removal of the framework for revenue sharing on 0870 means that any originating call provider that hasn't reduced its retail call rates, in effect, imposed a price increase in real terms on 1 August 2009 when the 0870 changes took effect.

The original idea behind this website was to list alternatives to 0870 numbers, as the name implies. But 0844 is the new 0870!


As for which number you should dial; it's down to your tariff. A "freephone" number is charged at a premium by mobile operators, so some look for alternatives to them.

Hi Dave, thanks for that, I found that to be a very fair and well explained response.

Another concern I have is that if you circumvent the initial dialing number (0870, 0844 or whatever for a local national number (01??) you may incure a greater cost and / or  a long delay.

Now let me say from the start I have NO agenda here nor do I think people saving money is a bad thing, I'm all for beating "the man", but I do understand how and why calls are sent through non geographical numbers and yes I do know some numbers generate income for companies. However it is important for people to understand whilst you may call a number that costs more than a geographical 01?? number, your call is often answered much quicker and delt with faster by calling the 08?? number. Lets take a Bank, it is in thier interest to answer as many calls as they can as quickly and efficiently as possible. Using non geographical numbers gives the company a chance to direct the call to a group of agents who can answer your call quickly. If you use the geographical numbers you may be calling a very busy or inactive skill. I would rather pay 10p a minute and get answered and delt with in 2 mins than spend 25 mins calling a number that doesn't ever get answered.

Regards
SP

ScarletPimpernel wrote on Feb 8^th, 2010 at 4:40pm:

Another concern I have is that if you circumvent the initial dialing number (0870, 0844 or whatever for a local national number (01??) you may incure a greater cost and / or  a long delay.

There's no guarantee as to how long the call will take to be answered on the 01/02 number or whether this is the same as, or longer or shorter than calling the published 08xx number.



ScarletPimpernel wrote on Feb 8^th, 2010 at 4:40pm:

… but I do understand how and why calls are sent through non geographical numbers and yes I do know some numbers generate income for companies. However it is important for people to understand whilst you may call a number that costs more than a geographical 01?? number, your call is often answered much quicker and delt with faster by calling the 08?? number. …

As I say, there's no guarantees and quite obviously, a call may be handled in a different way.

I don't intend to get into any discussion about whether the same "fancy" or "advanced" services can be provided on 01/02 numbers. The purpose of this website is not to oppose the use of such services. It is the premium carried with any 084x call that is the bone of contention.

Organisations that use these numbers frequently trot off the line that "Ah well, we need a 0845 number so we can route calls here there and everywhere." That doesn't justify levying a charge directly to the caller (other than his/her "normal" phone call rate).

Which is what 03 numbers are; prior to their introduction, I am not aware of any organisation, small or large, that called on the introduction of these neutrally charged non-geographic numbers (apart from consumer pressure in the form of SAYNOTO0870.COM). At that time, the 084x users had their noses in the trough (many still do), having their callers pick up the tab for the "advanced" features which are so often proclaimed as being necessary. As I say, whether they are necessary or not my interest. It's the covert charging arrangement that leads people to this website in the form of the high retail call they are subjected to.



ScarletPimpernel wrote on Feb 8^th, 2010 at 4:40pm:

…Lets take a Bank, it is in thier interest to answer as many calls as they can as quickly and efficiently as possible. Using non geographical numbers gives the company a chance to direct the call to a group of agents who can answer your call quickly. If you use the geographical numbers you may be calling a very busy or inactive skill. I would rather pay 10p a minute and get answered and delt with in 2 mins than spend 25 mins calling a number that doesn't ever get answered.

Like many 084x revenue sharing number users, the justification for passing a covert charge back to your customers (callers) is because you need the "advanced" technology. The two things are totally separate; particularly now we have 03 numbers.

Also, with many who use these numbers they don't talk about the they levy on callers directly through use of these phone numbers, let alone explain to them why this is necessary.


Either:

1. You are happy to derive subsidy (financial benefit) from your customers/callers without declaring it and when challenged, justify use of 084x numbers solely because of their operational benefits.
2. You are happy to declare you make a charge for all telephone contact through a 084x number, but you've not mentioned this fact yet in your posting on this forum.
3. You are in ignorance of the subsidy your telephone provider derives from your customers/callers.

So which is it?

We await ScarletPimpernel's response. Will his company choose either to:

1. Openly promote the fact that an "administration" charge is imposed directly on customers who telephone its 084x numbers?
2. Decide that the "administration" charge is innappropriate and switch to cost-neutral 03 numbers?

Or will it do none of the above, in which case we continue to say no to its 084x numbers.

H'mmmm I see where this is going and I'm not sure the lalalala I can't hear you arguement is particularly valid.

you say

I don't intend to get into any discussion about whether the same "fancy" or "advanced" services can be provided on 01/02 numbers. The purpose of this website is not to oppose the use of such services. It is the premium carried with any 084x call that is the bone of contention.

Why not get into the discussion, if the premium for calling 084x numbers is less than calling a 01xx number (overall costs) surely it makes sense to call the 084x number. If you just blindly hate the 084x numbers becuase companies make money off the public calling them, but offer a better service which means a lower cost to the customer, surely you are doing everyone a dis-service by encouraging them to cal the 01xx number. I'm sure it's not your intention to make more money for the telco's but that is actually what you are doing.

So either:
1. You are happy to generate more cost to the customers and fill the pockets of the telco's
2. You hate 084x blindly
3. You don't really understand how call routing works?
4. This website generates you income from advertising and sales?

So which is it?


I'm happy to agree that using 01xx numbers is much better when calling a small company that only has 1 call centre, as long as you are open minded enough to agree that where multiple site locations / agent skills sets are present it MAY make more sense in calling a 084x number.

Regards

SP.

ScarletPimpernel wrote on Feb 9^th, 2010 at 2:41pm:

Why not get into the discussion, if the premium for calling 084x numbers is less than calling a 01xx number (overall costs) surely it makes sense to call the 084x number. If you just blindly hate the 084x numbers becuase companies make money off the public calling them, but offer a better service which means a lower cost to the customer, surely you are doing everyone a dis-service by encouraging them to cal the 01xx number. I'm sure it's not your intention to make more money for the telco's but that is actually what you are doing.

You are now referring to the call cost and basing comments purely on call cost. Call costs are determined by call retailers who must pay "wholesale" costs to connect calls. This is in much the same way as any retailer must pay their supplier for the goods they sell. The more expensive the goods are to buy in, the higher the retail price will be; perhaps you think otherwise.

The "premium" I refer to exists with all 0845 calls, regardless of whether the cost of ringing is less than, the same or greater than a geographic/03 call for the caller on his/her chosen provider/tariff. It is that which I seek to expose.

BT's retail call rates for 0845 (and 0844) numbers are abnormally low because of a regulation called the "NTS Condition" which limits the margin it can take to a very tiny amount. Any suggestion that its prices can be used as a yardstick for the market in general is therefore nonsense.

In most cases, originating providers charge more for 0845 calls than they do for 01/02/03 calls. There are a few who mirror BT's perverse charging structure, thereby offsetting the 0845 "premiums" (that are passed on to call recipients' telcos) onto their customers as a whole, rather than directly to the individuals who call the said numbers.



ScarletPimpernel wrote on Feb 9^th, 2010 at 2:41pm:

I'm happy to agree that using 01xx numbers is much better when calling a small company that only has 1 call centre, as long as you are open minded enough to agree that where multiple site locations / agent skills sets are present it MAY make more sence in calling a 084x number.

This campaign is about the subsidy passed to users of 0845 (and other "revenue sharing") numbers. If any organisation deems this necessary for its operation, then it should openly declare that it levies a fee directly to those who call. The 03 range is there to provide the same technical/operational/marketing benefits as 0845 but without the subsidy.

Those who use 0845 numbers so as to take advantage of perverse call discounts offered by some providers are thereby promoting those providers as being the preferred suppliers that their customers should subscribe to. Whilst this may be acceptable in the private sector, the public sector is no place for showing such commercial favouritism.


For a more in depth explanation, read my blog:

http://saynoto0870.blogspot.com/2010/02/dwp-case-for-03-numbers.html

The DWP uses 0845 numbers because more people pay less than pay more (than if it used 01/02/03 numbers). In my posting, I explain why this takes a very blinkered view of the issues.

There are some simple matters of fact to get nailed down and (hopefully) removed from the main discussion.

• Where a 084x number simply routes to a single geo number, it is simply making money for the recipient. That is the classic situation which the database of alternative numbers is intended to deal with.
  
  
• When making a weekday daytime call under the terms of the BT weekends or evenings and weekends call plan, it is cheaper to call a 084x number than a 01/02/03 number. That is a perverse and unique situation. It applies to no other provider and is likely not to survive for very much longer.
  
  
• Apart from the situation described above it is always more expensive to call a call type g6 0844 number than a 01/02/03 number - all providers, all tariffs, all times.
  
  
• There are some situations where weekday daytime calls to 0845 numbers are no more expensive; however they are invariably more expensive from Virgin Media landlines, public payphones and all PAYG and contract mobiles.
  

Having set out these points, I will step aside (at least for the moment) to let the primary combatants resume battle.

P.S. This posting has been rendered largely redundant by a blow (#8) having been struck whiclst it was being prepared.

Guys you are failing to answer my question, so I won't confuse it with any other discussion all it does is muddy the waters.

Do you think (care if) it is fair to advertise 01xx numbers where the customer calling that number is going to incure more charges by calling that number than the 084x number?

Simple question only requires a yes or no.

Regards

SP.

Yes (given appropriate qualification).

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Feb 9^th, 2010 at 4:33pm:

Yes (given appropriate qualification).

The same applies to 084, 087, 09 and other numbers with a premium charge.

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Feb 9^th, 2010 at 4:35pm:

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Feb 9th, 2010 at 4:33pm: Yes (given appropriate qualification). The same applies to 084, 087, 09 and other numbers with a premium charge.

BT should indicate that its charges for calling otherwise inclusive numbers when outside the period covered by a call plan, include an element of "penalty". This may be helpful to those who have not recognised that these charges have been increased at a steady anual rate of 30% for the last two years.

ScarletPimpernel wrote on Feb 9^th, 2010 at 4:08pm:

Do you think (care if) it is fair to advertise 01xx numbers where the customer calling that number is going to incure more charges by calling that number than the 084x number?

Doing so allows people to take advantage of lower call rates in the market. This campaign is about having a fair telecommunications market, not one where some organisations seek to distort it by giving the advantage to a few telephone providers.

A similar example is the internet. The internet allows lots of different online retailers to each sell identical products (eg the same make/model TV). Should online stores be closed down because they are not the cheapest for one particular product?

There is a difference to this site's database in that analogy and that is that they who charge more do so for their own benefit (i.e. in their aim of making a profit).

It is not this site's intention to have people call the number which is more expensive and the most effective use of the database requires each individual to know which number is the cheapest on his/her particular tariff. It would be impractical to design into the database search engine, options to specify provider and tariff so as to indicate to the user which number is the cheapest to call for them.

Dave wrote on Feb 9^th, 2010 at 4:41pm:

It is not this site's intention to have people call the number which is more expensive and use of the database requires each individual to know which number is the cheapest on his/her particular tariff. It would be impractical to design into the database search engine, options to speficy provider and tariff so as to indicate to the user which number is the cheapest to call for them.

I'm not saying what you are trying to achieve is incorrect, however the result of publishing 01xx numbers only encourages people to call them as they believe that they will be getting a cheaper call or in some packages a free call. In my experience which is quite extensive within this arena, on average it is cheaper and much less time consuming to call the advertised premium number than to call a unqualified 01xx number. You never get the 01xx number (there are usually multiple ones anyway) behind the premium number as they change regualrly depending on business campaigns/redistribution of calls, etc etc.

For those that don't know that are reading this a typical call flow for a call to a 084x number tends to go through at 1 lot of pre routing (For businesses with large customer bases, banks, road side assistance, etc. What this means is when you call one of these call centres your call before it is delivered out of the BT cloud does some interigation as to where to deliver your call depending on certain criteria, usually LAA (longest available agent) or MED (minimum expected delay). Yes whilst companies do gain revenue from 084x numbers it is more than offset by agent cost. It is the interest of large organisations to answer your calls quickly and efficiently.  Your call is then delivered to a local number at one of the sites able to best handle your call. Calling a 01xx number takes out this option of delivery and you call will be delivered to wherever that 01xx number is set to deliver, this can change every hour if needed.  Companies advertise the number they want to to call.

Your website whilst having a good intention is only costing your readers more money, wasting thier time and generating more money for the Telco's.  Oh yes and generating an income from advertising/sales for the owner of the site.  I'm quite curious now, in the interest of fair play and you wanting companies to declare income from the premium numbers, how much income does this website generate?

Regards

SP

Scarlet Pimpernel, this is my personal view on the matter you raise.  I have a 24/7 inclusive calls package, this means that individual calls cost me 0p so for me it is never going to be cheaper to call an 084/087 number.  My experience has been that I have never had to queue longer calling a geo no and, indeed, where I had had on occasion to use both types of number for the same organisation, I have been answered quicker on the geo number than the 084 number  I would anyway much rather wait on hold on a geo number at zero cost than be dealt with quicker on a number such as 0845 that was costing me money.   I also have every objection to any organisation I call deriving a premium from my call hence even the BT inclusion of such numbers would not induce me to use them where I could possibly avoid doing so as I am not prepared to assist companies in gaining revenue share from callers.

There is a genuine, and mistaken, belief amongst many users of the saynoto0870 database that the alternative number given is simply the one and only underlying number below the published non-geographic number.

Where this is not the case and the alternative is offering alternative access, this should be clearly identified. If SP could help in this regard, it would be most valuable.


More should also be done to help both sides understand that nobody actually "makes money" out of calls to 084 numbers, other than the telephone companies. The modest subsidy from which the user benefits is relatively petty when set against the cost of call handling. This cost saving does help the bottom line, but nobody would set up a service on a 0845 number in order to generate a net income.

One therefore wonders why people persist in using these numbers when callers pay such a premium: 10p plus 10p per minute as a premium for Virgin Media customer with the XL package, 40p per minute as a premium for some mobile contract holders with inclusive packages. No wonder that some people look desperately for possibly unsuitable alternatives. Is the risk of losing or upsetting these callers really worth the modest benefit received from choosing 084 over 03?


The database could be clearer in warning users that it offers no guarantee that any one of the numbers listed is cheaper than any other. There are many who are unaware of the present perverse position of BT in respect of calls made outside the period covered by the call plan, or indeed as has always been the case with BT in respect of 0845 calls.

The misunderstanding about the oddness of BT's position occurs "on the other side" as well. SP refers to costs as if all 084 calls were made to 0845 numbers during the weekday daytime by those who subscribe to the BT weekend or evening and weekend call plan. Callers from Virgin Media, public payphones or mobiles pay more for all calls to 084 numbers.


I personally see no problem whatsoever in companies offering a Premium Rate Service by telephone. It should be identified as such and the additional cost involved (calling from most providers) should be suitably advised. It is perhaps unfortunate that those who use the cheaper premium rate numbers are not able to formally describe themselves as offering a "Premium Rate Service". That privilege is reserved for those who use 0871 and the more expensive numbers.

Those who are ready to provide the premium service at no additional cost to the caller (barring penalty charges imposed on some customers by BT) are able to do so using 03 numbers. The modest loss of subsidy and the additional cost incurred should indeed be seen as petty when set against the higher agent costs willingly incurred in actually providing the superior standard of call handling.

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Feb 9^th, 2010 at 6:14pm:

More should also be done to help both sides understand that nobody actually "makes money" out of calls to 084 numbers, other than the telephone companies.

According to this article dated August 2008  http://www.ehiprimarycare.com/News/4025/hopsitals%27_084_numbers_makes_trust_%C2%A380000

The Mid-Yorkshire Hospitals Trust 'made more than £80,000 from use of a 0844 telephone number over the last two years.'

ScarletPimpernel wrote on Feb 9^th, 2010 at 5:04pm:

I'm not saying what you are trying to achieve is incorrect, however the result of publishing 01xx numbers only encourages people to call them as they believe that they will be getting a cheaper call or in some packages a free call. In my experience which is quite extensive within this arena, on average it is cheaper and much less time consuming to call the advertised premium number than to call a unqualified 01xx number. You never get the 01xx number (there are usually multiple ones anyway) behind the premium number as they change regualrly depending on business campaigns/redistribution of calls, etc etc.

There are many things that in life that have consequences. For example, where a road is opened that connects two existing roads, it is likely to result in through traffic to a certain degree, regardless of the steps that are taken to minimise it. Some retailers offer discount codes, such as those printed in newspapers in order to offer readers an introductory discount. Some websites specialise in allowing these codes to be shared between their users meaning that the discounts being claimed won't be limited to readers of the newspapers the advert was placed in.

Any organisation that uses a revenue sharing/premium number must accept that it is likely that customers will try and bypass this charging mechanism. There may be a cost to the business of dealing with calls to back-door numbers and this cost may include having the unofficial numbers disabled, where the company deems it necessary.

Some sites, such as Gethuman, specialise in tips to jump call queues by pressing certain keys when listening to IVRs. That is not the intention of this website, although, of course, the back door numbers we publish may result in customers getting their call answered quicker or slower than if they had rung a published 0845 number.

I appreciate what you say about the 01/02 number being listed on SAYNOTO0870.COM not being the best one at the time a call is made. When I am listing alternatives in the database, where I have a choice, I will list the one which responds most like the organisation's 084x number. So if I have a 01/02 number that goes straight to hold music and one that has the same IVR (menu) as is on the NGN, then the latter will be listed.

The point is that the database contains the best alternative numbers we have for each purpose. A better alternative number than one which is found to answer with the same IVR (which is on the NGN) is one provided by the organisation itself. In many cases these are not available, so we go with the best we've got.


I gather back door alternatives for your organisation have been listed here. Setup a 03 number to run in parallel with each 084x number (i.e. calls are directed in exactly the same way), provide me with a list of them (Dave at Say no to 0870 dot com) and I will replace them with any unofficial 01/02 alternatives we have listed. If that's not possible, then let me know more suitable 01/02/03 alternatives, such as a main office switchboard that will put calls through.

This will make customers happy as they will not have to pay a premium and they won't need to go looking for alternatives, meaning that your company is far less likely to have to disable any 01/02 numbers. The 03 numbers will also provide call statistics, so your company will know how popular they are, and this may assist it when considering its phone numbering policy in the future.



ScarletPimpernel wrote on Feb 9^th, 2010 at 5:04pm:

Your website whilst having a good intention is only costing your readers more money, wasting thier time and generating more money for the Telco's. …

If people really experienced higher phone bills, then they wouldn't use the site. Quite a number have inclusive calls, meaning that even if they do last longer, the cost will likely be less.

There is another cost element that I am concerned about and that is the cost of the "advanced" routing systems, which are, in effect, the front end of the telecommunications connection into call centres. With 084x numbers these services are paid for by callers, whereas with 03 numbers the cost for them is transferred entirely to call recipients (service providers or SPs). Some SPs may naively consider them to be provided "free", out of the generosity of their telecommunications provider.



ScarletPimpernel wrote on Feb 9^th, 2010 at 5:04pm:

… Oh yes and generating an income from advertising/sales for the owner of the site.  I'm quite curious now, in the interest of fair play and you wanting companies to declare income from the premium numbers, how much income does this website generate?

I don't believe that the site owner has ever made any statement on this. I'm a member just like the rest, except that I have been given Moderator status on the forum and can change entries in the database, so I can't advise further.



I think that we are coming to a better understanding of one another's position on this. As I say, if your company can be persuaded to set up 03 numbers alongside its 084x numbers, then I will list them in place of the back door 01/02 numbers.  :)

ScarletPimpernel wrote on Feb 9^th, 2010 at 4:08pm:

Guys you are failing to answer my question, so I won't confuse it with any other discussion all it does is muddy the waters. Do you think (care if) it is fair to advertise 01xx numbers where the customer calling that number is going to incure more charges by calling that number than the 084x number? Simple question only requires a yes or no. Regards SP.

From my location, a call to any 08X number is typically fifteen to twenty times greater in cost than a call to almost any geographic number (excluding CI, IOM). It is therefore sensible to attempt to circumvent 08X numbering, by fair means or otherwise.

There is no *need* for 084/087 numbering. It may have had merit a long time ago in the days of 0345 and 0990, but it is now simply an excuse to extract additional revenue for what used to be a 'normal' call. Exploitation, in a word.

So, the answer is yes.

Dave wrote on Feb 9^th, 2010 at 10:26pm:

I think that we are coming to a better understanding of one another's position on this. As I say, if your company can be persuaded to set up 03 numbers alongside its 084x numbers, then I will list them in place of the back door 01/02 numbers.  :)

I'm not so sure you do understand exactly, I will state my position. I am a consultant for a product from Cisco (I don't work for Cisco) called ICM. I have done a lot of work with many of the UK Telco's and larger companies that have a ICM platform. I can only tell you that they experience little to no problems with your attempt to circumvent the non geographical numbers, the amount (%) of people calling 01xx numbers is so small that it doesn't concern them, it doesn't show up on thier stats and as such there is no driver to fix the issue. At best if they notice these calls at all and they can be bothered to identify the source (01xx) they may just busy out that number.

As I say all that is really happening is

1: that if the number is busied out your reader may incure a charge and get no satisfaction.
2: the call gets routed to a skill that is either unmanned or is unable to deal with it.
3: the call hits the right skill but has a worse service level than another skill elsewhere within the estate, so your reader may waste his/her time and possibly more money than if calling the 08xx.
4: your call gets through and hits the right queue.

I have no vested interest in any company that uses any premium number, I just want people to understand that calling the 01 number listed here may not be the most economical (cash and/or time).


Regards

SP

ScarletPimpernel wrote on Feb 10^th, 2010 at 12:08pm:

As I say all that is really happening is 1: that if the number is busied out your reader may incure a charge and get no satisfaction. 2: the call gets routed to a skill that is either unmanned or is unable to deal with it. 3: the call hits the right skill but has a worse service level than another skill elsewhere within the estate, so your reader may waste his/her time and possibly more money than if calling the 08xx. 4: your call gets through and hits the right queue. I have no vested interest in any company that uses any premium number, I just want people to understand that calling the 01 number listed here may not be the most economical (cash and/or time).

Thanks. I appreciate what you're saying and this applies far more to 01/02 numbers we list for large call centres, and a lot less for smaller organisations. No guarantees are given as to the reliability or accuracy (quality) of the listings and your postings highlight why they may not be as good as ringing the official 084x numbers.

The fact that a call may last longer does not necessarily mean that the overal cost of it will be higher, due to higher call rates for ringing 084x numbers.

The alternative numbers listed in the database are in no way the fix to the frequent use of revenue sharing/premium numbers. It is more a means to an end, to put pressure on organisations to abandon them. Whilst those organisations may not be too concerned about a relatively few number of their callers bypassing official numbers, the availability of the SAYNOTO0870.COM database does raise awareness with consumers who will in turn apply pressure to 084x/087x users for them change, such as lodging complaints.

Dave wrote on Feb 10^th, 2010 at 2:49pm:

ScarletPimpernel wrote on Feb 10th, 2010 at 12:08pm: As I say ... ... Thanks. I appreciate what you're saying ... ...

I see this, perhaps final, exchange representing a well rounded acknowledgement of the benefits, limits and dangers of the database of alternative numbers after some worthy, if sometimes excessive, blows had been struck.

It may be worthwhile for Dave to collect some of his points into a posting on the new blog. Other members would doubtless wish to prepare alternative summaries to offer in comment.