I received my annual subscription renewal form from the Automobile Association today. Although I'm not pleased to see that my subscription fee has gone up a whopping £10 since last year (a huge increase, especially compared with the £7.50 one the previous year), the enclosed leaflet put a smile on my face - specifically, the very first point:

IMPORTANT INFORMATION AND CHANGES TO YOUR AA MEMBERSHIP
Valid for UK Members whose AA Membership renewal date is on or after 1st January 2010.

1. USEFUL CONTACT INFORMATION
We have provided two geographical phone numbers as we appreciate that some mobile phone tariffs may charge extra for calling 0800 and 0870 numbers.* The two additional numbers are detailed below:
For help following a breakdown in the UK..................................................... 0121 275 3746
To make changes, cancel or enquire about your AA Membership.................. 0161 332 1789
In addition, please note that SMS text messaging is available for use by deaf, hard of hearing or speech impaired Members in a breakdown situation by sending an SMS to 07900 444 999.

*my emphasis!

This is excellent news, and the AA is to be congratulated, not only for listening to its members in providing these alternative numbers, but in openly publicising them - giving them prominence by listing them as point 1 in an information leaflet and sending this leaflet out to all of its members, even members like me whose renewal is due before 1st January 2010 when the changes come into effect. Thanks to the AA's honesty, we need never feel guilty about using these alternative numbers!

I note that these official new numbers are not currently listed in the 'Say No to 08' database. I propose that they be included immediately and the AA added to the 'Hall of Fame'. Both numbers, together with their non-geographic counterparts, are listed on its website here (under 'Breakdown cover'): http://www.theaa.com/aboutaa/contact.html

Strangely, their website still gives 0845 788 7766 as the breakdown number to call from mobile phones. I guess they've just forgotten to delete it! I never understood why they offered that number as an alternative for mobiles anyway, as the standard 0800 one would surely cost the same or even slightly less to call from a mobile, and the 0845 one certainly wouldn't be included in any 'inclusive minutes'.

The AA's action makes me feel that, perhaps, this campaign is not in vain after all. With so many organisations unapologetically switching to NG numbers these days it's very easy to lose hope and feel that we're fighting a losing battle, but cases like this make it all seem worthwhile! I shall be writing to the AA to congratulate them. :)

This is not new.

I posted this at the end of last year here http://www.saynoto0870.com/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.cgi?num=1262085157/5#5

Also I think I posted this even earlier

Trenod wrote on Sep 16^th, 2010 at 6:54pm:

I note that these official new numbers are not currently listed in the 'Say No to 08' database. I propose that they be included immediately and the AA added to the 'Hall of Fame'. Both numbers, together with their non-geographic counterparts, are listed on its website here (under 'Breakdown cover'): http://www.theaa.com/aboutaa/contact.html

Oh yes they are in the database and they have been for a while!  ::)

You can search by any type of number, and not just 08 number. So you can put in an alternative (such as one of these) and see the entry(ies) it's listed in.  ;)

There is a freephone number for member services as well which is also listed in the database.

Oh well, pardon me. I searched for 'AA' and there was nothing there (I see now that I should have looked under T instead of A!!!). So I then searched for 'Automobile Association' and a few unverified entries came up. It was news to me, so I thought it would be to others.

I wonder why the AA is only actively publicising these numbers now, if they've been around for so long? The aforementioned leaflet makes them sound brand new! If only I'd known about them a few weeks ago when I had to call out the AA for a puncture!! I couldn't get through on the 08 number, and realised it was because of the Vodafone Freedom (ahem) Pack into which I had turned my credit! Luckily a friend was with me so I used her phone. Had I been alone I would have had to look for a phonebox - not an attractive option at night.

At least this leaflet makes their motive clear. It should still be welcomed.

I must point out that the AA has always been happy to do mobile callbacks if credit is a worry, but these geographic numbers are the icing on the cake!

Trenod wrote on Sep 16^th, 2010 at 11:26pm:

I must point out that the AA has always been happy to do mobile callbacks if credit is a worry, but these geographic numbers are the icing on the cake!

Anyone who is ready to do call backs because the published number is expensive for some, should get wise to the publication of geo (or 03) alternatives. It is a far cheaper solution for them as well as being more effective. For those who queue calls to be answered by an agent, the offer of a call back because the call is expensive is the most ridiculous notion.

Icing on the cake - yes, for the caller. For the AA it is actually a way of saving money as well as providing a better service. If only DWP, HMRC and NHS Direct would get wise.

Trenod wrote on Sep 16^th, 2010 at 11:26pm:

I wonder why the AA is only actively publicising these numbers now, if they've been around for so long? The aforementioned leaflet makes them sound brand new! …

Along with the renewal information I received last year was a sheet entitled Important Information and changes to your AA Membership, reference TCPA09B (05/09). This would appear to be the same sheet (different version) quoted above.

The previous year's Important Information & Changes to you AA Membership [TCPA07 (11/08)] does not make mention of these numbers. So they have been introduced somewhere between November 2008 and May 2009.



Trenod wrote on Sep 16^th, 2010 at 11:26pm:

If only I'd known about them a few weeks ago when I had to call out the AA for a puncture!! I couldn't get through on the 08 number, and realised it was because of the Vodafone Freedom (ahem) Pack into which I had turned my credit! …

"Freephone" (0800/0808/0500) numbers can be dialled from mobile phones and billed as geographic calls by using a dial through operator such as 020 0222 0900. Dial the number, and when it answers it will prompt for the destination number.

While I agree with Trenod that it is progress that the AA is actively quoting an alternative number I fail to see why the AA does not scrap its 084/7 customer service numbers completely, although its approach of suggesting the use of 080 from a landline or phonebox and the geographic numbers from a mobile for its breakdown number does seem to be one we would broadly support.

However given the huge percentage of breakdown calls that must be received by the AA from mobiles one could be inclined to ask why they and their breakdown industry competitors in general haven't acquired an 0808 number that is completely free to call even from mobiles since we know that such numbers do exist and are are used by some non commercial helplines.  Given the large membership fees charged by the AA I can't believe that using a properly free 0800 number from a mobile could be very expensive given that 99% of the membership cost must surely relate to the cost of employing roadside breakdown patrols and recovery vehicles.

With that last point in mind I would urge Trenod to shop around and check how much his own car insurer or vehicle manufacturer may also be charging for breakdown cover as both are often much cheaper than the AA's rates for what may well still be AA service.  For instance I pay precisely £55 per year on my 8 year old Toyota for what used to full RAC European breakdown and recovery service and is now precisely the same full European breakdown and recovery service with the AA (as Toyota recently changed their breakdown service supplier).

If Trenod is buying his breakdown cover direct from the AA I regret to report that is usually the most expensive way to obtain their service since they seem to rely on people who come to them directly as not being price sensitive and instead being people who feel that they are only comfortable with a certain breakdown recovery brand (even though the AA is no longer the jolly member run outfit that saluted members at the roadside that it once was and is now part of a large faceless corporate brand). >:(

NGMsGhost wrote on Sep 27^th, 2010 at 8:38am:

... ask why they and their breakdown industry competitors in general haven't acquired an 0808 number that is completely free to call even from mobiles ...

There may be some misunderstanding here.

Unless I am out of date, there is no range of numbers that are free to call, at the expense of the recipient, including from mobiles.

By arrangement through the Helplines Association, most mobile provider waive their charges to callers on calls to registered "helplines". These are advice services provided mostly by charities and in a few cases government bodies. They can be on any 080 number, although the 080880 range is reserved exclusively for such approved helplines.

The Department for Work and Pensions has come to a private arrangement with most of the mobile providers to waive their charges on calls to its 0800 numbers. The potential exists for the motoring organisations to do the same; this would however be a special arrangement.

I believe that this situation is likely to resolve itself once the mobile companies have been compelled to find alternative ways of funding access to their networks when the excessive termination rates on inbound calls have been removed. It is possible that rates for outbound calls will be raised to compensate, however I think this unlikely. I also believe that there would be great difficulty in implementing a per-call charge for receiving calls. Ofcom presently demands that a message be played whenever is a charge is levied on a call to a 080 number. When the final phase of the termination rate reduction process is reached, Ofcom should review the situation with 080 calls.

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Sep 27^th, 2010 at 10:39am:

Unless I am out of date, there is no range of numbers that are free to call, at the expense of the recipient, including from mobiles.

Then you must be heavily out of date SCV (perhaps as out of date as the early 1980s) as in my experience the 0500, 0800 and 0808 number ranges are free to call from all landlines including BT Public Payphones.  Even before 0500, 0800 and 0808 were invented BT still used to run a Freephone service via the BT Operator (or I suppose the GPO before that) such as as Freephone DoubleGlazing etc.

Or perhaps you were referring only to mobiles in which case you seem to have forgotten that 0800 calls from Orange Contract mobiles also used to be free of charge until only a year or two ago.  And of course originally there were no Freephone numbers called from mobiles as the only means of making a call was a landline.


Quote:

By arrangement through the Helplines Association, most mobile provider waive their charges to callers on calls to registered "helplines". These are advice services provided mostly by charities and in a few cases government bodies. They can be on any 080 number, although the 080880 range is reserved exclusively for such approved helplines.

And what exactly is wrong with them also being forced by regulation (they won't do it voluntarily due to the volume of calls and loss of profit involved) to waive these charges from stranded motorists at the side of the road (including vulnerable women and children) who are not expecting to find themselves in this position when they set out on their journey and who are at risk of being hit and killed by another vehicle or robbed and mugged while stranded at the side of the road.  Are you suggesting they are in less need of a free urgent call than someone who is an alcoholic or a gambler or who is thinking of committing suicide?  Are you suggesting they should be put at risk if they are part of the great unbanked and do not have a top up voucher with them when they break down and so cannot add any credit to their phone while at the roadside.  Also should they be put at risk even if they can add credit at the roadside during the 10 minutes or more it can often take to add credit to a pay as you go mobile phone if there any technical issues with touch tones not being heard by automated equipment etc.

NGMsGhost wrote on Sep 27^th, 2010 at 11:05am:

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Sep 27th, 2010 at 10:39am: Unless I am out of date, there is no range of numbers that are free to call, at the expense of the recipient, including from mobiles. Then you must be heavily out of date SCV ...

I was referring to the current situation; the word "are" gives it away. "including from mobiles" means that I was referring to numbers that are free to call from all types of telephone, including mobiles.


A very strong case is made for all stranded motorists being rescued at public expense, rather being left in the hands of commercial organisations. The "AA" used to make a case for being nationalised when it offended the coastguard service.

Whilst it may be very frustrating for those who break down with limited credit that their motoring organisation will not return their call, should we not also consider those who have no mobile phone, or have drained the battery, or cannot get a signal, or are not a member of any motoring organisation?

I make these points for consideration in the light of comments made; however I do not believe that I have expressed a personal opinion about the relative positions of any of the many types of victims being discussed here. I try to look for whatever solutions there may be for anyone, trying to avoid assigning priorities and setting one case against another, except where it is necessary.


NGMsGhost wrote on Sep 27^th, 2010 at 11:05am:

being forced by regulation ... to waive these charges from stranded motorists at the side of the road ...

The voluntary selective waiving of charges for calls to 080 numbers is not an ideal situation. I am not a great lover of philanthropy generally, however I do recognise the good that it does and would not wish to see it prohibited or undermined unless the alternative was clearly better.

There is an argument for a statutory regulator determining which are and are not deserving cases, however many of us would be concerned about any regulatory body making the right decisions, as we would see it. I do not believe that the Office for Communications, which regulates the telecoms market, is the right type of body to make a decision about which companies should benefit from free incoming calls.

It is always a cheap and easy shot to say that if a regulator had to make decisions based on rules and principles, then parents and pupils phoning in to Eton College would probably get preference over stranded motorists, because they are calling a registered charity rather than a commercial business.

Under the present circumstances, I believe that it is for the motoring organisations to look to follow what DWP has done. It could well be that the money saved on callbacks (assuming that they are presently offered) will, as for the DWP, offset the cost of a "free to caller" arrangement. If there were to be a net cost, it would be a matter of seeing if members in general, or alternatively shareholders, would be prepared to bear it.

NGMsGhost wrote on Sep 27^th, 2010 at 11:05am:

… Even before 0500, 0800 and 0808 were invented BT still used to run a Freephone service via the BT Operator (or I suppose the GPO before that) such as as Freephone DoubleGlazing etc.

At that time there was only one network provider. Thus, the BT/GPO Operator would be connecting to destinations on its own network which could be privately accounted for.

The decision to liberalise telecommunications services in the UK meant radical changes. With mobile networks in particular, the cost of passes calls over them is higher than with landlines.

Hence, to have a freephone number to be free, it stands to reason that number users (call recipients) will likely have to foot the bill for the higher communications charge.



NGMsGhost wrote on Sep 27^th, 2010 at 11:05am:

Or perhaps you were referring only to mobiles in which case you seem to have forgotten that 0800 calls from Orange Contract mobiles also used to be free of charge until only a year or two ago.  And of course originally there were no Freephone numbers called from mobiles as the only means of making a call was a landline.

Orange chose to offer free-to-call 0800/0808/0500 calls as part of its service offering in much the same way as Giffgaff offers now.

It was/is in no way a solution to a problem of chargeable "freephone" numbers from mobiles, a problem which exists as a result of the fact that we now have interconnecting networks.



NGMsGhost wrote on Sep 27^th, 2010 at 11:05am:

And what exactly is wrong with them also being forced by regulation (they won't do it voluntarily due to the volume of calls and loss of profit involved) to waive these charges from stranded motorists at the side of the road (including vulnerable women and children) who are not expecting to find themselves in this position when they set out on their journey and who are at risk of being hit and killed by another vehicle or robbed and mugged while stranded at the side of the road. …

I suspect that there is nothing in statute (Communications Act etc) that would permit Ofcom to do this. Perhaps you would like to write to your MP (no doubt cc'ed to all other MPs) with a prospect to allowing this?



NGMsGhost wrote on Sep 27^th, 2010 at 11:05am:

… Are you suggesting they are in less need of a free urgent call than someone who is an alcoholic or a gambler or who is thinking of committing suicide?  Are you suggesting they should be put at risk if they are part of the great unbanked and do not have a top up voucher with them when they break down and so cannot add any credit to their phone while at the roadside. …

Are you suggesting that someone who is an alcolhic or a gambler or who is thinking of committing suicide should be made to pay for a call, which is presently free, until such a time as breakdown services are made free to call from mobiles?



NGMsGhost wrote on Sep 27^th, 2010 at 11:05am:

… Also should they be put at risk even if they can add credit at the roadside during the 10 minutes or more it can often take to add credit to a pay as you go mobile phone if there any technical issues with touch tones not being heard by automated equipment etc.

What about the absurd fact that there are four separate GSM networks which means that there are areas served by one or more but not all? Motorists may be in an area covered by a mobile phone signal, but not their network which is as good as having no signal at all.

Dave wrote on Sep 27^th, 2010 at 4:33pm:

What about the absurd fact that there are four separate GSM networks which means that there are areas served by one or more but not all? Motorists may be in an area covered by a mobile phone signal, but not their network which is as good as having no signal at all.

I believe that as a last resort 999/112 will operate on any available network, even when your own network has no coverage.  Certainly it will do if you remove the SIM card from the phone.

But I agree I find it totally ludicrous that when I go abroad I can use all available GSM networks in the majority of countries as a visitor but in my own country I cannot use a rival company's transmitter, even at a higher premium rate per minute, where my own network has no coverage.  I believe this is to do with some ludicrous idea that OFCoN had that this would encourage each of the four network operators to build as many transmitters as possible to develop their networks.  Quite how this was good for cost effectiveness or preserving rural beauty in sparsely populated areas has always been beyond me.  However for all I know the Chairman of OFTEL and then OfCoN may perhaps have held a larger number of shares in the companies responsible for building mobile phone transmitter masts. ::)

Off topic replies have been moved to This Thread

Dave wrote on Sep 17^th, 2010 at 5:37am:

Trenod wrote on Sep 16th, 2010 at 11:26pm: If only I'd known about them a few weeks ago when I had to call out the AA for a puncture!! I couldn't get through on the 08 number, and realised it was because of the Vodafone Freedom (ahem) Pack into which I had turned my credit! … "Freephone" (0800/0808/0500) numbers can be dialled from mobile phones and billed as geographic calls by using a dial through operator such as 020 0222 0900. Dial the number, and when it answers it will prompt for the destination number.

FYI, I just tried 020 0222 0700 and 0900 and neither of them connect on T-Mobile ("calls to this number are not being connected...") Either the service has stopped or TMUK is actively blocking it (as opposed to allowing it and charging as OOB).

However, some other dial-through numbers for 0800 which I found as working:

(via http://dovischeiner.blogspot.com/2009/05/calling-0800-numbers-via-mobile-update.html and http://www.0800buster.co.uk/)


pre-dial > 0200-222-0700;
pd-dial > 0200-222-0900;
QX Dial+ > 01635-774-305
QX Dial+ > 01635-774-325

0800Buster > 01249 20 0800

01635 578 107
01635 578 562
01793 23 82 80
01793 23 82 80

As of 2008 those last four could also dial 0845 and 0870 at weekends, not tried them yet. (just copypasta). Posted in this thread because it ranks highly on Google when searching for dialthrough services for 0800 (and when searching for the old 0200 numbers).