Both 0845 and local calls are now both a ripoff by some suppliers.

Many forms say something like "BT charge a local call rate 2p per min, others may charge more".

To my horror I find that Virgin charge 7.5 p for both 0845 AND local calls.  This charge crept up on me without obvious notification (although it was probably hidden in some marketing bumf for cable TV channels).  When I started, local calls were 1 p per minute.  It now seems that they are charging 5.5p ABOVE BT charges.

Calls to 0845 tax office etc. now cost an absolute fortune for no information.  You think it is a local call rate - but pay full national and more.

This looks like unscrupulous trading to me.  Can OFCOM do anything to stop it?

Ofcom can do plenty but it is my belief that they choose not to, if my memory serves me (member may correct me on this) Ofcom is an industry regulator but they cow down to the large telecoms and let them get a way with far tooe much.

In regard to Virgin I chose to use the unlimited call package, becuase otherwise the connection fee pluss the per minute charge soon exeeds the monthly charge.

I have had good continuous service from Vergin and prior the them telewest so I choose the stop with them.


If I use Sayno which I do all the time and never ring 0845/70/71 numbers my pheone bill never exceed the unlimited set charge.

This is a great forum, if you can't find the alternative number in the database feel free to post details of the number including company name postal address and web address.

Somebody will always be pleased to help

All the best and welcome to 0870

Hello and welcome to SAYNOTO0870.COM.

There is much confusion and misunderstanding about this and there is not a simple answer or explanation.

All calls to all 0845 numbers carry a Service Charge or premium which is passed to the receiving party via its telephone provider. Call providers (i.e. the telcos we make our calls with) generally pass this Service Charge on to callers and add their own mark-up (known as an Access Charge).

BT's situation is different as it is not allowed to levy an Access Charge, and thus its retail call rates are atypical of those in general as it only bills callers to the value of the Service Charge.

When the 0845 numbers were first introduced, most people made their calls with BT. At that time BT charged local geographic calls at lower rates to national geographic ones. It was decided that BT would charge 0845 calls at the same rate as local geographic ones. It was also decided that this retail charge would be passed to the benefit of the receiver (via its telco), so BT wasn't allowed to make a profit on these calls. These are regulations which still apply now.

It is therefore still the case today that BT does not profit (as a call originator) on these calls. So the "others may vary" and "others may charge more" you see is in fact wrong and it is BT which charges less.


There is a current consultation (now in extra time) which is looking at what to do with this. The removal of the said regulations are a distinct possibility as the majority of callers are no longer with BT.

I hope that Ofcom will introduce the much needed clarity that all users of 084 (and 0871/2/3/09) numbers benefit financially from callers and to what degree. That way they will be forced to stop presenting BT's call rates as if they were the norm, and we would all be able to see what is happening at present which is that banks, insurance companies and the tax office, to name but a few, impose a Service Charge of 2 pence per minute on all callers.

bazzerfewi wrote on Mar 12^th, 2011 at 9:55am:

Ofcom can do plenty but it is my belief that they choose not to, if my memory serves me (member may correct me on this) Ofcom is an industry regulator but they cow down to the large telecoms and let them get a way with far tooe much.

Ofcom is currently consulting (the deadline has been extended until 31st March) about this (discussed in this thread). Its proposals are to bring much needed clarity to the premium (Service Charge) attached to all 084 calls.

Grimpiper wrote on Mar 12^th, 2011 at 9:00am:

Calls to 0845 tax office etc. now cost an absolute fortune for no information.  You think it is a local call rate - but pay full national and more.

On most tariffs, local and national calls are the same rate. By definition, there can only be one "local rate" and one "national rate" for any subsriber at any one time. 0845 is not "local rate"!

I obviously still live in the dark ages.  I have been using SayNo for a few years, but I am finding that more 01 02 03 numbers are being blocked by the called party - often saying they are for overseas users.  This forced me into 0845s and 7.5 PPM charged by Virgin.  

I still thought that my local exchange would attract a lower rate than a different exchange.  I could have walked across the road and saved a few quid.  

Grimpiper wrote on Mar 12^th, 2011 at 10:53am:

I still thought that my local exchange would attract a lower rate than a different exchange.  I could have walked across the road and saved a few quid.

It's nearly seven years since BT scrapped it "BT Standard" tariff which was the last mainstream residential offering that had differing local and national call rates. You will be pushed to find such a tariff to get on these days.


There is another effect that telephone users should be aware of and that is the reduction in anytime inclusive packages combined with the sky-rocketing of charges for non-inclusive geographic (and 03) calls. This is something that is happening with landline providers in general and means that less and less non-inclusive (chargeable) calls need be made in order to make it financially worthwhile to subscribe to one's provider's anytime inclusive package.

Thus, charges for non-inclusive geographic and 03 calls are in effect a penalty for making calls outside the hours of inclusivity.

Yes some companies are attempting to make difficult for callers to find an alternative 01/02 number but I find that this is usually because the telcos advise their customers that this is the best and only alternative.

If I cannot source an alternative number on this site or Google by entering the 0845 number I sometimes change the digits in the original fax number it doesn't always work but is sometimes worth a try.

I recieved the following reponse from South Eastern Railway when I asked they if they had any intention of changing their 0845 number to an 0345 one.

"Thank you for your website comment which we received on 4 March 2011.

We have no immediate plans to change our telephone prefix. In general, we find the 0845 number more beneficial to our customers, as opposed to the 0345 number, based on the following rates.

Calls to an 0845 number from a standard BT landline cost the caller:

•      3.36ppm (peak)
•      1.26ppm (evening)
•      0.85ppm (weekend)

Calls to a 03 number from a standard BT landline cost your caller:

•      4.16p (peak)
•      1.70p (evening)
•      1.00p (weekend)

We have however recorded your comments for when our telephone prefix is reviewed in the future. "

Yet again they quote BT's rates as if it is the norm for anyone calling them to be on BT!

Grimpiper wrote on Mar 12^th, 2011 at 10:53am:

I obviously still live in the dark ages.  I have been using SayNo for a few years, but I am finding that more 01 02 03 numbers are being blocked by the called party - often saying they are for overseas users.  This forced me into 0845s and 7.5 PPM charged by Virgin.   I still thought that my local exchange would attract a lower rate than a different exchange.  I could have walked across the road and saved a few quid.

Don't be 'forced' to make calls to 084 numbers at 7.5 ppm.

Be like me - if I can't ring a company or service on an 01, 02 or 03 number, or 08 free with BT at weekends, then I simply DON'T make the call. Period!  Maybe if a few thousand did this, and let the company know what yopu are doing by email, then they may begin to think again.  Whenever I'm talking to someone and they give me an 084 or 087 number, I always interupt them and tell them I can't and won't call premium rate numbers. The latest to do this was Green Flag this week, who persistently kept telling me the 0845 number she tried to give me was 'only local rate'.

It's obvious the 'local rate' message just aint getting through to most companies.

poppasmuf,

with regards to GreenFlag they are part of Direct Line who insist on using 0845 numbers for every department (much like Tesco), so I am not shocked by what you have been told.

Out of interest there is an 01 number for breakdowns: http://www.greenflag.com/contactus.html just scroll down.

There are a number of alternatives in the Database for Green Flag

bazzerfewi wrote on Mar 13^th, 2011 at 2:07pm:

There are a number of alternatives in the Database for Green Flag

Thanks. Yes, I know there are alternatives and I used an 0800 number to call them. It's just that the woman I was talking to originally told me she couldn't help me and I HAD to call an 0845 number. She was most insistent that there was no alternative to doing so.  It's just that I was on my mission to tell her I couldn't and wouldn't call premium rate numbers under any circumstances, and finished up saying to her that her company had lost my business because of it. ;D

So even when you told her that you couldn't ring 0845 numbers from your phone she wouldn't connect you. In the past I have been most insistent and asked for their name and position in the company, that has always worked for me.

Usually when they think you are going to complain they buckle under the pressure.


Bazzerfiewi

bazzerfewi wrote on Mar 13^th, 2011 at 5:15pm:

So even when you told her that you couldn't ring 0845 numbers from your phone she wouldn't connect you. In the past I have been most insistent and asked for their name and position in the company, that has always worked for me. Usually when they think you are going to complain they buckle under the pressure. Bazzerfiewi

You are right. It's just that she was so insistent that I HAD to call an 0845 number and there was no alternative, when I had a letter in my hand giving an 0800 number for queries, which I had initially missed.

But it reminds me of when I ran my own publishing company. When I had someone on the phone who was being awkward, and I was being even more awkward to them, and they wanted to know who owned the company, I told them it was owned by me - Ebeneezer Golightly Gruntfutock, and they could write to me if they wished to complain!!!

Good one ;D

I must register my total dissent from some members on here who choose to seek gratification from the abuse and ridicule of company employees.

What is perhaps more ridiculous is the belief that these members apparently consider those employees are the ones who set company policy on telephone numbers.

Clearly, there are some who see a brash approach as being much more likely at yielding assistance from those that they are speaking to. Are they themselves more amenable in cases where others intercourse with them in that way?


Where customers demand that those they are speaking to either put them through or give out an alternative number, they may be making a demand that they break company policy and leave themselves open to disciplinary action as a result. What a distasteful self-centred approach some people take!

I never abuse employees that is not my style, I may be insistent but I am never rude, my usual line is

This is not personal to you and I do not aim to offend anybody "rest assured I am very insistent when I ask to be connected to their superior"

Their usual line is that’s ok - they either connect me or insist that they can't

If it is the latter I retreat gracefully and politely

bazzerfewi wrote on Mar 15^th, 2011 at 8:19pm:

I never abuse employees that is not my style, I may be insistent but I am never rude, my usual line is This is not personal to you and I do not aim to offend anybody "rest assured I am very insistent when I ask to be connected to their superior" Their usual line is that’s ok - they either connect me or insist that they can't If it is the latter I retreat gracefully and politely

It's very important to bear in mind that, even though many will put calls through, that there are those who are prevented from doing so.

Grimpiper wrote on Mar 12^th, 2011 at 10:53am:

I obviously still live in the dark ages.  I have been using SayNo for a few years, but I am finding that more 01 02 03 numbers are being blocked by the called party - often saying they are for overseas users.  This forced me into 0845s and 7.5 PPM charged by Virgin.

7½p/minute?

Dream on.

Virgin's charges to call 0845 numbers are 11.24p connection + 10.22p/minute.

Virgin Call Trapper

Now they have created an  unlimited 0845 plan for either £3 or £5 per month sounds good but I fear that sales agents will encourage unsuspecting callers to sign up and probably not use it to its full extent

0845 inclusive packages do not work in my view

Quite. Surely there's also a continual game of cat&mouse going on here...

Rewind several years and 0845/0870 numbers are created, for the genuine "non geographic" purpose and landline calls are charged according to distance. Landline calls then get "flatrated", local & national rate become obsolete but 0845 & especially 0870 slowly become "money grabbing" numbers.

After a while, BT include them for good PR purposes but all other operators still charge. 03 is introduced and very slowly starts to become more widely known. Ofcom abolish the ability to revenue-share on 0845 & 0870 while 03x begins to take hold. But now firms begin to move to 0844 & 0871 if they were "in it" for the money, and 03x if they have any morals.

Surely the underlying problem is the money-grabbing companies/organisations, the great British public who "put up" with it, and a regulatory system that lets it all happen. Telcos beginning to offer the option of including 0845 & 0870 (I think Voda might also offer something similar for business accounts) is only putting a sticking plaster on, just as 0844 & 0871 are becoming more common...

Rant over :-)

japitts wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2011 at 1:53pm:

Rewind several years and 0845/0870 numbers are created, for the genuine "non geographic" purpose and landline calls are charged according to distance. Landline calls then get "flatrated", local & national rate become obsolete but 0845 & especially 0870 slowly become "money grabbing" numbers.

According to distance applicable for those who make their calls with BT (which was the majority).



japitts wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2011 at 1:53pm:

After a while, BT include them for good PR purposes but all other operators still charge. 03 is introduced and very slowly starts to become more widely known. Ofcom abolish the ability to revenue-share on 0845 & 0870 while 03x begins to take hold. But now firms begin to move to 0844 & 0871 if they were "in it" for the money, and 03x if they have any morals.

Revenue sharing has not been removed on 0845 numbers; it was only taken away on 0870 numbers.



japitts wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2011 at 1:53pm:

Surely the underlying problem is the money-grabbing companies/organisations, the great British public who "put up" with it, and a regulatory system that lets it all happen. Telcos beginning to offer the option of including 0845 & 0870 (I think Voda might also offer something similar for business accounts) is only putting a sticking plaster on, just as 0844 & 0871 are becoming more common...

The underlying problem is the way in which the users (and providers) of these numbers cling to the out-dated idea that BT charges are the norm.

This is despite the so-called "free-market" where different telcos interconnect (thereby allowing callers of one provider to ring customers of others). It means that providers and users of these numbers show little regard for any free-market choice when making their selection of numbers.

The sooner the regulation on BT is lifted which means it charges a low level for Business Rate numbers, and a system with clarity is introduced that works equally with all call providers, the better.

The sooner the regulation on BT is lifted which means it charges a low level for Business Rate numbers, and a system with clarity is introduced that works equally with all call providers, the better. [/quote]

Sorry about that Rewrite

Trouble is that OFCOM Wheels turn that slow that we could be skint by then.  

Take mobiles and 0800 numbes that should never have happened even now there are people that think 0800 numbers are still free when using 0800 numbers from mobiles.

It is a pity some National Paper with a Good Reputation - if there is one still - couldnt sit down with a Techie that Knows Proper details on this 0845 NOT lo-call and 0870 NOT Nat. and all the other rip-offs and put a big article on the Front page and really let the People know. There must be millions like myself and neighbour that didnt have a clue.

I must admit I didnt, until having got Broad/B after Dial-up old metered charges package and started to have a nose around Web sites and found this Forum and found the GP's 0844 money grabibng and further looked at other Threads and Sites - I had no idea of the enormous Rip-off problems in the Telephoney Business

Through 0844 GP for a Elderly Neighbour, she was on BT Evening & W/end with £38/40 p month bills I helped to go Anytime £18.60 and had to tell her if Trademen gave Mobile number to say I want the Office No. and they can phone Trademan. Mine went from £40/58 month also to £18.60 once I stopped my Son phoning Mobiles.

On advice ten years ago I had hung on to my BT Rental but had calls from TT Friends and Family with 10% disc and extra 20% for Prime Number my 0845 metered dial-up and of course no contract - they hadnt been invented 10 years ago, so after I found a Fantantisc small ISP Fast.co.uk this year - no Big Boy Bandits with Support in India or Africa for me I changed to the BT Anytime for calls - I know I pay a little more for ISP but my overall set-up suits me perfectly but without this Forum and ISP Reviews I wouldnt be the Happy Bunny I am now   ;D ;D 

Thanks all for help and advice given

The first ISP in the UK to introduce a 0845 pay as you go service was Freeserve in 1998.

Freserve was my first dial-up Internet which was bought by Wanabee but we kept our freeserve address then bought by Orange who changed the number from 0845 to 0844 which is when I jumped ship to yahoo webmail because I was getting 30% off 0845 dial-up which finally cost 0.5p p.min after 7pm in old TT Freinds and Family all other calls metered - after I got BB from a small ISP in April I switched to BT Anytime for calls because Now it fitted my needs

When I told TT that I was moving to BT now I had my BB -I got the Sales speil about their BB and told both that I didnt want Support from India and dared BT who tried to get my BB that if they touched my BB I would come and get them and proscecute for negligence - I am getting faster speeds than TT, Sky and BT locally with my little ISP. and very happy. 

I still very occasionally come across a frserve.co.uk address-
the good old days - no spam then and no calls from Microsoft  India trying to get remote control on your PC.