Via a Google Images search for a wooden box for aromatherapy oils, I discovered >  http://www.spiritadventures.co.uk

Surprise surprise, their contact phone number is an 0844  >:(
http://www.spiritadventures.co.uk/shop/index.php?route=information/contact

They do have an email link, but I much prefer to talk to someone.  Thanks in advance...  /me   :)

Their 0844 number (08447366292) is an answer phone, so no doubt they would call you back. Therefore the same I guess would apply if you emailed them asking for a call back? :-/

Interesting, a postcode check for who's at Unit 10 shows:

COASTAL DATA SYSTEMS LTD, Unit 10, Invicta Way, Manston Park, Ramsgate, Kent  CT12 5FD

http://www.coastaldata.co.uk/pages/contactcoastaldata.html

I wonder whether they have a sideline?

This is what is in their Terms Conditions:

is a sole-trading company and is not VAT registered. Spirit Adventures.co.uk is the trading name for this commercial website and can be emailed at: mail@spiritadventures.co.uk Our located office is at Coastal Data Offices, FAO: Spirit Adventures, Unit 10 Invicta Way, Manston Park, Manston, Ramsgate, Kent. CT12 5FD. PLEASE NOTE THIS IS A WORKING OFFICE AND IS INACCESSIBLE TO THE PUBLIC.

The geographic phone No. for Coastal Data is 01843 823 324

Checking further, Spirit Adventures and the domain is owned by Sarah Tanner.

Information on Sarah Tanner incl. her publications is here:

http://ezinearticles.com/?expert=Sarah_Tanner

Put "spiritadventures.co.uk" telephone into Google and some pages give 01843 836735.

Hello,
I am the owner of Spirit Adventures and I happened to stumble across this debate. I just wanted to say that unfortunately I do not have a geographical based number. It is only me running the business and as well as working and looking after a baby, I am unable to commit 8 hours a day to sitting by the phone for one or two phone calls a week. However, I am more than happy to phone you back if you leave me your phone number either by answer message or email.
Also, Spirit Adventures is not a ?side line? of coastal data. I rent a storage room from them and use this as my business correspondence address. I work part from home and part there and it would be physically and financially difficult to offer a land line number, unless I offer a home number, which I have had in the past. I then get people phoning at 2am in the morning to ask if there has been dispatched yet etc?
I pay BT the privilege to have this number and have no financial gain at all from it. The main purpose is for people to ask me to call them back to place a phone order or for emergency problems as 95% of communications and sales are made through the website.
I just wanted to write this post to show I am a legitimate website and business and have been for nearly the past 9 years. I am more than happy to give you a call back on your own phone so it does not cost you any money and I like to think that you would have a worry-free personal shopping experience using my business. It may take up to 24 hours (in very rare cases) but I will always get back to you as a matter of urgency if there has been any problems and I am always happy to refund any orders that have been lost or damaged in the post (subject to the normal terms and conditions set by Distant Selling Regs.)
Thank you!
Sarah

The point is that people are put off from calling you at all because from a mobile it might cost 40 pence per minute or more to call your 0844 number.

If this line merely terminates on an answering machine I fail to see the problem in providing an 01843 number that leads to that very same answering machine: users on mobile phones could then call your 01843 number within their bundled contract allowance or bundled pay-as-you-go top up allowance without additional charge, or at 4p to 25p per minute on a regular pay-as-you-go-tariff, rather than every one of those potential customers having to pay 40 pence per minute or more to call you on the 0844 number from their mobile.

From a landline, customers would be able to call your 01843 number within their bundled minutes rather than incurring an additional charge of between 5p and 30p per minute on their bill to call an 0844 number. There's some data on at least the landline call rates over at: http://www.telecom-tariffs.co.uk/codelook.htm

Click on [By Charge Band] > Scroll down to "G11" > Click on [Call Cost] > See "Compare All Residential Call Costs:" > Click on [Weekday, Daytime] [Weekday, Evening] [Weekend, Daytime] or [Weekend, Evening].


Heh! Thanks for stopping by. It's a rare thing to hear back directly from a business owner.

Thanks for the reply, but my point is that the majority of my customers (I would say over 95%) conduct their trade online. I am not blind to the fact that 0844 may put off a small minority of customers, in fact, the “answer phone” itself may put off a small minority of customers. However, the cost and disturbance of installing a business line just for 1-2 phone calls a week outweighs the small demand for such a line.

The phone system is VPS/VOI and there is no “physical” phone line or answer phone. It is not so simple as just transferring a phone line to an answer phone. VPS gives me the flexibility to communicate with my customers where ever I am and not tied to a physical landline or disturbed by an answer phone at 2am in the morning.

I am sympathetic to the fact that people may have to pay to use this number. However, the purpose of 0844 is to provide a local tariff number instead of  national one on a BT land line. It is the phone service providers and Ofcom that need to modify these tariffs. In the mean time, small business holders such as myself will carry on using these numbers because they offer efficient communication solutions at prices small business owners could not afford if a physical phone system was installed.

Also, it is not like this is the only point of contact people are forced to pay to use. Email is free, you can even order on my website and request me to phone for payment which is entirely free. I do not advertise this number as a “sales hotline” or anything like that. It is purely there a contact point for people who wish to call.

Thanks for reading.

Freespirit1079 wrote on Oct 21^st, 2011 at 5:34pm:

I am sympathetic to the fact that people may have to pay to use this number. However, the purpose of 0844 is to provide a local tariff number instead of  national one on a BT land line. It is the phone service providers and Ofcom that need to modify these tariffs.

FreeSpirit,

Thank you for posting on SayNoTo0870.com,

I do understand where you are coming from and why you have chosen an 0844 number.

I would however like to point out one "error" with the above statement you have made. Calls are NOT charged at a "local" tariff, why? Because it does NOT exist.

All calls to 01/02/03 numbers are charged at a standard Geographic rate, irrespective of where in the UK the caller has dialled from. In easier terms, it's the same from Lands End to John O'Groats.

0844 numbers are charged at a Min rate of approx 5p per minute, but are alway's excluded from Calling Plans on landlines and mobiles. And from Mobiles carry a heavy premium.

Out of interest who told you it was a "local" tariff?

Regards,

:)

Hello Freespirit1079 and welcome to SAYNOTO0870.COM.

ALL users of 084 numbers benefit and this is due to their design. I blogged about this previously: How do 084x numbers work?

My primary interest in this campaign is for this to be made clear to all service users and service providers, such as yourself.

Others on here wish to see all companies stop using Business Rate numbers. My belief is that once companies have to declare the subsidy they get, then many will move away from these numbers because the benefit is so small.


In response to the points you make:

Today there are many different providers of telephony in the UK. The cost of 0844 calls from BT varies from other providers because of regulation imposed on it a number of years due to its market position. This results in BT's call rates being lower than others. For a further explanation, see the NHS Patient blog: BT charges may vary from others

You say that the phone companies need to "modify these tariffs". Earlier this year, Ofcom ran a consultation at which it proposed that call pricing for 0844 and similar numbers would be a split tariff whereby the number user would declare its Service Charge and originating telephone providers (the telcos we make our calls with) would advise their Access Charge. At present the BT Access Charge (where a call is made from BT) for 0844 calls is effectively zero.


I am not particularly interested in whether the 0844 number is the only way your business can operate; that is your concern. All I'd like to see is that you make clear the 3 or 4 pence per minute subsidy you get from its use.

If you're not happy at doing this, then give it up and move to a 01, 02 or 03 number !!!


Local and national calls don't generally cost different amounts on any individual tariff. This is a relic from the days prior to competition, when BT was the only provider of telecommunications.

If this is the justification for a Business Rate number, then I must point out that you're disadvantaging many to offer a tiny benefit to so few. As a private enterprise, you can do this if you wish. I abhor this type of favourtism for public sector services.

As I say, prior to competition in the market there was only BT. The rates it charged then still exist today for all but a handful of its customers. These are known as "non-discounted" rates which have differing local and national call rates.

In the early 2000s it introduced "discounted" rates (chiefly in the form of BT Together) to compete with the offerings from other providers. In 2004 it discontinued its mainstream residential non-discounted tariff, moving some 9 million customers on to BT Together. By this time, BT Together had aligned local and national call rates.

The cost of your 0844 number is 4.084 pence per minute at all times from BT lines (plus a Call Set-up fee of 12.5 pence). BT's most popular residential Calling Plan is Anytime, on which local and national calls cost nothing. You are evidently one of those people who maintain that there can be two "local" call rates on a particular tariff so as to suit your own cause.


I speak as someone who has little first-hand experience of such services, but from what you say, you use the number mainly as an answerphone service. I am wondering why you do not get a 01, 02 or 03 number which from certain suppliers could cost you a few pounds a month and offer an answerphone service which e-mails you messages as well as allowing calls to be received using a VoIP phone for no extra charge.

Despite both the ASA and Trading Standards taking action against various companies and websites that illegally claim 0845 or 084X numbers are "local rate" and 0870 or 087X numbers are "national rate", tens of thousands of sites are still making this false claim:

http://www.google.com/search?num=100&q="0845+local%22

http://www.google.com/search?num=100&q="0870+national%22

These include both telecoms companies and the companies using these numbers.

Hello and thank you for your comments.

In response, I apologise about the local tarriff comment. I have a very ill and teething daughter and so my brain was a bit fried at the moment and I dont know why I wrote that last night, I think I was confused with the number originally being a "lo call" number.

However, I am incrdibly angry and upset that you are accusing me of making money from this number? I have always prided myself on giving a genuine and transparant service to my customers. How dare you make an accusation like this! I PAY to have that phone number! I make absolutely nothing for it! Just to prove it, here is the service I use:

http://www.ringcentral.co.uk

Please state anywhere on here where I make money from my phone number as I am yet to receive an income from it.

Freespirit1079 wrote on Oct 22^nd, 2011 at 9:30am:

However, I am incrdibly angry and upset that you are accusing me of making money from this number? I have always prided myself on giving a genuine and transparant service to my customers. How dare you make an accusation like this! I PAY to have that phone number! I make absolutely nothing for it! Just to prove it, here is the service I use: http://www.ringcentral.co.uk Please state anywhere on here where I make money from my phone number as I am yet to receive an income from it.

Dear FreeSpirit,

Please do not think I am accusing you of "making" any money from this service, what I am trying to point out is that if you have a small business there is nothing stopping you using a standard geographic number.

You kindly provided a link to Ring Central, so I decided to have a look, and I found you can have a Geographic number for Canterbury 01227 which is fairly near (to my knowledge) to where you are.

All I am pointing out is there are other options.

Here is the link: http://www.ringcentral.co.uk/how-it-works/local-numbers-availability.html

Dear CJT-80,
Thank you, I am now looking into a geographical number myself.
However, it is Dave's comment that I am upset about:


Dave wrote on Oct 21^st, 2011 at 11:00pm:

I am not particularly interested in whether the 0844 number is the only way your business can operate; that is your concern. All I'd like to see is that you make clear the 3 or 4 pence per minute subsidy you get from its use. If you're not happy at doing this, then give it up and move to a 01, 02 or 03 number !!!

The fact is that SOME 0844 companies make revenue, not ALL, I am certainly not one of these.

Freespirit1079 wrote on Oct 22^nd, 2011 at 3:40pm:

The fact is that SOME 0844 companies make revenue, not ALL, I am certainly not one of these.

Why not look at it from the customer perspective? Virtually all those calling 0844 will be disadvantaged, particularly those using mobile services. Have you ever made a call from, assuming you have one, a mobile telephone and subsequently looked at your bill? The additional premium, which can be considerable in comparison with what would be a normal call conveyance charge, will end up in someone's pot.

I have no idea whether you conduct international transactions; the website appears to indicate shipping to foreign addresses is possible, so I assume that you do. Are you familiar with the inherent difficulties faced by those who may need to call such numbers from overseas? It is either not possible, or very expensive when compared to calling a 'regular' number.

It may be that your contact number is simply used as an answering service, which is all well and good, but there are so many other possibilities available at little or no cost to yourself for such a service.

Personally, I treat any outfit using such contact numbers with suspicion, and can only conclude that there is no consideration for the me as a customer or potential customer.

0844 and the like provide highly inefficient and grossly overpriced mechanisms for micro payment collection. Ultimately it is the consumer who is shafted, yet these numbers are often promoted as being charged at local tariffs.

Freespirit1079 wrote on Oct 22^nd, 2011 at 9:30am:

However, I am incrdibly angry and upset that you are accusing me of making money from this number? I have always prided myself on giving a genuine and transparant service to my customers. How dare you make an accusation like this! I PAY to have that phone number! I make absolutely nothing for it! Just to prove it, here is the service I use: http://www.ringcentral.co.uk Please state anywhere on here where I make money from my phone number as I am yet to receive an income from it.

I have never accused you of "making" money or receiving income. I have only referred to the subsidy (or benefit) designed into 084 numbers, irrespective of whether any revenue is paid directly or not. I more in depth explanation of this is below.

You stated quite clearly that you do not receive any payback for calls, and in fact that you contribute towards the cost of the service.

It is also important to understand that the receipt of benefit from 084 Business Rate numbers is by design and is not inhibited in any way because the user is not paid directly.

It is the case that your provider collects revenue from callers' telephone companies (around 3 or 4 pence per minute). This is as a result of your selection of a 0844 number. You simply allow it to retain this in return for the service, to which you make a direct contribution as well.

---

Here is a more in-depth explanation:

It is important to remember that today's telecommunications network (as a whole) is made up of different providers. This is a crucial difference to the way it worked when there was only BT.

In the days of only BT, all calls were made from BT, charged to the caller by BT and delivered to the destination by BT. So, (as an example) at that time, you could say that callers paid the "local rate" to ring (if you had such a number). This is because there were different local and national rates. In fact, there was only one tariff!

Another example of how it worked back then: Callers paid 10 pence per minute to ring a particular company and 4 pence per minute to ring a local number. Thus, the premium above a local call was 6 pence per minute. It was easy to see and describe the affect of number selection on callers.


In today's multi-provider market, calls are often made from one provider to a customer of another provider. Thus, the cost of a call to one particular number differs between caller’s telcos (call providers) and even between tariffs.

A simple schematic of a call is as follows:

[Caller]----[Caller's telco]----[X]----[Receiver's telco]----[Receiver]


The Receiver's telco is that chosen by the Receiver. In your case it is BT.

Point [X] is where the two providers interconnect. It is the demarcation point between the Caller's and the Receiver's telephone service.

For calls to pass point [X], a toll must be paid. For a 0844 number this is up to about 5 pence per minute. Your 0844 number is a g11 which is roughly 4 pence per minute. Contrast this with a "normal" geographic call which is around 0.5 pence per minute. (Figures are rough and are given to illustrate a point of principle.)


Now consider this:-

1. From the point of view of the Caller and the Caller's telco:

The price that the Caller's telco sets (the retail call price) will likely reflect the cost of this toll. An 0844 number is a premium product with respect to a geographic call, so is likely to cost more to call.

It makes no sense to suggest that Caller's telcos will absorb the premium (the subsidy) as there is no benefit (to them) to do so. That would be like supermarkets permanently reducing the price of premium brand corn flakes to the price of their "no frills" corn flakes. The benefit would be for the customer (better corn flakes) and supermarkets would be likely to find that they sell far more premium brand corn flakes, which cost them more to stock.

Coming back to 0844 call charges, where the Caller's telco is BT it is only allowed to charge the toll. It cannot add on (much) for selling the product. Thus, its 0844 charges (but not geographic/03 charges) are very low and therefore the exception to the norm.

2. From the point of view of the Receiver and the Receiver's telco:

This is bit is important to the understanding of why getting no revenue does not reduce the subsidy received.

The Receiver's telco acts as the agent for the Receiver. It delivers calls to the Receiver and it is chosen by the Receiver.

For a call to a 0844 g6 number (not the same as that used by Spirit Adventures), the Receiver's telco collects 4 or 5 pence per minute. As the Receiver chose to use a 0844 number, it is thus responsible for this amount.

In some cases the Receiver's telco pays revenue and that comes out of this 4 or 5 pence per minute, with the remaining being retained by the Receiver's telco for provision of the service.


continued…

…continued

Here are two worked examples:

• A company uses a 0844 g6 number. It is paid 1 pence per minute for every call minute received. Thus, the amount its telco earns is what's left which is 3 or 4 pence per minute. The revenue payments are simply cash-back, or to put it another way, if there is an excess of subsidy, it is given paid directly.
  
  Now consider the effect where the company decides to give up receiving revenue payments. Its provider (the Receiver's telco) continues to collect the 4 or 5 pence per minute on all calls. It (the Receiver’s telco) now doesn't pay out anything to the Receiver, and so gets to keep all of this.
  
  If the company does not get any service in lieu of the forfeited 1 pence per minute, then, for its telco, it amounts to a voluntary increase in payment from its customer. The company has a net loss on its balance sheet for no gain! What kind of business operates like that?!
   
  
• Another company also uses a 0844 g6 number but pays its telco 2 pence per minute to receive calls. The Receiver’s telco picks up 4 or 5 pence per minute from Callers’ telcos (remember this is by design of the numbers). As the company pays 2 pence per minute, that therefore amounts to 6 or 7 pence per minute that the Receiver’s telco keeps for provision of the 0844 and associated services.

Note that the difference between g6 and g11 numbers is that the toll on the latter is roughly 1 pence per minute less. It is a g11 number which Spirit Adventures uses.

With these two examples, it can be seen that any revenue payments are allowed due to what I referred to as the “toll”. Declining any offer of them (or absence of such an offer) does not affect the toll and neither does paying the telephone company providing the 0844 number (which is effectively a negative revenue payment).

In Reply #10 above, I said that my primary interest in this campaign is for the benefit to be made clear to all service users and service providers. Elsewhere in postings I’ve referred to this as “subsidy” and in relation to the explanation here, it’s the “toll”.

Whatever the number user wishes to do with the toll is up to it. But it exists due to selection of a 0844 Business Rate number, and this is the key point that I wish to get across.

Freespirit1079 wrote on Oct 22^nd, 2011 at 3:40pm:

However, it is Dave's comment that I am upset about: Dave wrote on Oct 21st, 2011 at 11:00pm: I am not particularly interested in whether the 0844 number is the only way your business can operate; that is your concern. All I'd like to see is that you make clear the 3 or 4 pence per minute subsidy you get from its use. If you're not happy at doing this, then give it up and move to a 01, 02 or 03 number !!! The fact is that SOME 0844 companies make revenue, not ALL, I am certainly not one of these.

Sadly there's a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding about Business Rate 0844 numbers and telephone services in general. Apologies to anyone who finds my above explanation heavy going.

It's a common misconception that no revenue payments to you makes a number cost-neutral (i.e. its user derives no benefit).

I've made an extensive double-posting which explains the ins and outs. The "toll" I refer to is what I referred to as "subsidy" in the excerpt you quoted. I was in no way suggesting that you are paid directly.

From toll or subsidy come revenue payments, but turning off revenue payments (or not being offered them) doesn't lessen the toll.

I suggest that you look at moving to a cost-neutral 01, 02 or 03 number (I see your comment that you're doing it). Some suggestions that you might like to look at are in my next posting.

I have no experience of these services and no interest to declare in any of their providers. If anyone else knows of others (there are sure to be), then post them here.

• Andrews & Arnold - 01, 02 or 03 incoming number. £1.20 exc VAT per month.  Receive calls via VoIP at no extra charge.
   
  
• Gradwell - 01, 02 or 03 incoming number. Cost £4.00 exc VAT per month. Receive calls via VoIP at no extra charge
   
  
• Magrathea Telecommunications - VoIP provider. Unsure as to cost.

I'm not sure whether a geographic number or 03 number is best. I would recommend a 03 number, particularly if you don't wish to be perceived by some as a local company. On the other hand, I wonder as to how a 03 number might affect the ability for it to be called from abroad. I wonder whether some telcos don't allow them to be called and if where they do whether they charge a premium for them (above the price of a call to a UK landline number). I don't know either way on this one; these are just my thoughts.

idb, can you call UK 03 numbers from your US landline?

Dave wrote on Oct 22^nd, 2011 at 6:51pm:

idb, can you call UK 03 numbers from your US landline?

I have tried a couple of indirect carriers, and my anecdotal evidence is that the 03 range is correctly understood by US systems, and charged at an identical rate to calls to geographic numbers. I have yet to attempt a direct call from AT&T, only because international rates are just too high unless one has a calling plan. But yes, so far, calls to 03 are treated exactly the same as calls to 01 and 02 for charging purposes.

Just tried the DVLA from Google Voice, and the outcome was:

+443007906801 Add
10/22/11 3:30 PM 56 seconds ago 1 minute long and cost $0.02

The system informed me, prior to call completion, that the rate was 2c per minute, identical to that for an 01 or 02 number.

By comparison, Google Voice rates for other calls are:

United Kingdom - NGN - 870      $0.18
United Kingdom - NGN - Local      $0.18
United Kingdom - NGN - National      $0.24

I would assume that 0844 is charged at 18c/minute.

Thanks idb. I am not sure that we can draw too much from such a small sample.

I am interested to learn whether overseas providers allow calls to UK 03 numbers in general and whether this is at the same rate as geographic numbers.

idb wrote on Oct 22^nd, 2011 at 4:44pm:

ate=1319298001] I have no idea whether you conduct international transactions; the website appears to indicate shipping to foreign addresses is possible, so I assume that you do. Are you familiar with the inherent difficulties faced by those who may need to call such numbers from overseas? It is either not possible, or very expensive when compared to calling a 'regular' number.

Yes, I do take international orders. I had a geographical number for seven years and during that time I only had international calls from either fraudsters or sales people. All genuine international queries and sales have always been conducted over the internet. So please do not take my 0844 number as a lack of awareness or short sightedness in regards to international communications.

Dear Dave.

Thank you for taking such a huge amount of time from what must be a very busy schedule to write such a long, analytical and detailed reply for me. You have achieved you goal at making it incredibly clear just how 0844 numbers work and my business using such a number obviously upsets the type of person that uses your website.

I shall look into providing a land-line number for those who find emailing or me calling them back a less then satisfactory solution for communications.
I am quite happy to use a geographical number and my intention to use a 0844 number was never to make my business perceived as bigger than I actually am. The 0844 number was just a good and simple choice for me at the time when geographical numbers were not easy to buy like they are now.

I personally have never had issue with calling these numbers or just emailing a company which a majority of my customers do and considering my sales have increased after having such a number, I honestly never explored the necessity of a geographical number.

One suggestion I would make to you is that instead of just discussing business holders such as myself on your forums, you should involve us directly in educating and raising awareness for your campaign. I am sure I am not the only small business  holder who is ignorant in this field and I am sure other small business holders who use these numbers in good faith would feel pretty upset if they were being tarnished with the “subsidy making” brush or having their business legitimacy questioned.

Thank you for reading.

Freespirit1079 wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2011 at 3:57pm:

Thank you for taking such a huge amount of time from what must be a very busy schedule to write such a long, analytical and detailed reply for me. You have achieved you goal at making it incredibly clear just how 0844 numbers work and my business using such a number obviously upsets the type of person that uses your website. I shall look into providing a land-line number for those who find emailing or me calling them back a less then satisfactory solution for communications. I am quite happy to use a geographical number and my intention to use a 0844 number was never to make my business perceived as bigger than I actually am. The 0844 number was just a good and simple choice for me at the time when geographical numbers were not easy to buy like they are now. I personally have never had issue with calling these numbers or just emailing a company which a majority of my customers do and considering my sales have increased after having such a number, I honestly never explored the necessity of a geographical number. One suggestion I would make to you is that instead of just discussing business holders such as myself on your forums, you should involve us directly in educating and raising awareness for your campaign. I am sure I am not the only small business  holder who is ignorant in this field and I am sure other small business holders who use these numbers in good faith would feel pretty upset if they were being tarnished with the “subsidy making” brush or having their business legitimacy questioned.

Thanks for the positive feedback on my explanation of how these numbers work. This is really the cause of why consumers are up in arms.

Consumers react with abhorrence at the extra cost (above the price of a geographic call) of calling companies and public services. They aren't particularly interested in the reasons why (as in my explanation).


At the end of last year Ofcom published proposals to make clearer the benefit that Business Rate number users enjoy. The idea is to split up the "toll" from the amount that the caller's provider charges. Of course, the former is the same for any receiver, but the latter differs between callers. At present, people just consider charges as a whole and number users often quote the atypical BT rates.

I hope that Ofcom goes through with this split pricing along with an explanation which should put pressure on users of Business Rate numbers to come off them if they do not wish to be seen to taking subsidies from their callers.

Geographical Number - 01227 647004. I trust you all find that satisfactory.

Freespirit1079 wrote on Nov 9^th, 2011 at 10:39pm:

Geographical Number - 01227 647004. I trust you all find that satisfactory.

Thanks for posting your new number.  :)

The website has also been updated

:)