Carers in Devon can now find out about support and information from one place for the first time, as part of a £1.3 million investment by Devon County Council and NHS Devon via a new helpline with a 0845 number.

See: http://www.devonpct.nhs.uk/News/news-items/New_carers_support_service_launched.aspx

I thought NHS couldnt use 0845 any longer.

You beat me to it, I saw this as well.   Maybe someone should raise this with them?   I would do it but am heavily involved with the same issue with Glos Hospitals NHS Trust at the moment & haven't really got the time to dedicate to it.  Does any forum member live in Devon & feel able to pursue this?  It seems that NHS bodies just feel free to ignore the rules whenever it suits them!

The website is www.devoncarerscentre.org.uk and it says:


Quote:

The New Devon Virtual Carers Centre Thank you for your interest in the Devon Carers Link, Devon Learning Disability Carers and Devon Young Carers services. All of these are now part of the Devon Virtual Carers Centre. The integration of these and other services will mean that we are able to provide more and better services to Carers in Devon. More information is below. The Devon Virtual Carers Centre will have a new website (for more information about the changes read on below) but, for now, you can click on one of the logos on the left to visit one of the existing websites. For more information, call: 08456 434 435

The website for Devon Carers Link gives a similar number, 08456 431 341. At the bottom of the page it makes the claim that:

Calls charged at local rates. No more than 3p per minute (plus VAT) from a BT line. Mobile and other providers may vary.

One will probably find that none of the many organisations actually operating this service are "NHS bodies". If this is true, then they would fall outside the strict terms of the DH Directions.

Support for carers is a vitally important service and a most valuable channel for volunteer effort, but it is not part of the NHS. It is however an appalling decision to choose a 0845 number for such a service.


Of direct and specific concern is NHS Devon continuing to use 0845 140 5005. A geographic alternative (01392 205 205) is published, sometimes alongside, however there is no guidance as to who should use which number.

Those wise to telephone charging will know of the few who could benefit from the 0845 number - those subscribed to the less popular BT Call Plan - but no other caller draws any benefit from it. There will however be a widespread false assumption that anyone calling from outside Exeter (01392) would benefit from a local rate call by calling the 0845 number.

I was offered the latter explanation as the reason for the 0845 number being retained when I enquired around a year ago. I would expect to hear the same comment with reference to the Virtual Carers Centre number.

---

Quote:

Calls charged at local rates. No more than 3p per minute (plus VAT) from a BT line. Mobile and other providers may vary.

Can anyone remember back to when it was permissible to quote retail prices without VAT? Was it before, or after, there ceased to be a distinct local rate? It was clearly before BT introduced call setup fees for non-inclusive calls. Historians may be helped by identifying the time when the BT VAT-exclusive rate for 0845 calls was as high as 3p per minute.

I have to express surprise that this vintage price declaration shows an awareness of there being other providers and mobiles in common use!

It is obviously for representatives of WestBank, the operator of the Virtual Carers Centre, to speak for themselves. I am however led to believe that the decision to adopt a 0845 number may have been based on the following assumptions / facts.
[list bull-bluesq]

Carers in Devon will not call a number with a geographic dialling code other than their own. For this reason a non-geographic number was essential for the service. Tenders for provision of 03 numbers were too expensive. [list bull-bluesq]

Carers in Devon with a BT line may be assumed to always make calls using BT. [list bull-bluesq]

Carers in Devon who are least well off are likely to choose to pay more for their telephone calls. (No, that is not a typo.) It is thought that only those who are better off are likely to take advantage of BT's most popular Call Plan - Unlimited Anytime. [list bull-bluesq]

Carers in Devon, or those they care for - from whose home they may be calling, are unlikely to subscribe to BT Basic. (BT Basic is only available to those in receipt of certain DWP benefits - it includes a bundle of "free" UK and International calls, from which calls to 0845 numbers are excluded.) [list bull-bluesq]

Carers in Devon very rarely use mobile phones.
I am in no position to offer a definitive challenge to the veracity of these points.


I understand that the decision to choose a 0845 number (rather than 03) was based on the principle of achieving the best for the most. It was understood that far more people would benefit from the savings currently available to some BT customers than would incur the premium charges imposed by those providers who are allowed to add an "Access Charge" to the "Service Charge" which WestBank is happy to impose, for these reasons.

For a charitable activity, funded by public money, it is extremely dangerous to apply the "best for the most" principle. If this same principle were applied to its funding, then because there are more taxpayers than carers (and those they care for), all of the money would be returned directly to the taxpayers!

When looking at issues involving provision of publically funded services, one has to take a slightly wider perspective than that which a business can get away with. The whole point of public services which respond to particular needs is that there must be more "losers" than "winners". Measuring the public good requires judgement, not mathematics.


When choosing a non-geographic telephone number, the principle of equity demands that 03 be used in all cases where the only financial relationships required are those between users and their telephone companies. Where a financial relationship between the caller and the called may be entertained, one may consider 080 or 084. If a serious, paid-for, "Premium Rate Service" is being delivered, then there are other options.



When Ofcom comes forward with its proposals to remove the NTS condition from BT and implement the "unbundled" approach, or indeed anything that brings proper transparency to the way that NGCS are funded, there will be a major shock to many users of 0845 numbers.

If however the commercial and funding arrangements can be changed swiftly and there is deemed to be no significant investment in publicising a number, then there is no need to think about 2012 or 2013 when implementing a new number in October 2011.


I cannot be sure that the assessment of carers in Devon presented above is entirely fair, however there is much public ignorance about call charges and issues such as the very low "break-even point" for BT Unlimited Anytime. It is difficult to argue that providers of services by telephone have a duty to correct, rather than go along with, such ignorance - even if by going along with it they are potentially exploiting it, by saving money as a result.

If a carer in Barnstable with the Virgin Media Unlimited package would genuinely rather pay 63p for a 5 minute call to a 0845 number than pay nothing to call an Exeter number, then it may not be easy to make an issue of the fact that 8.5p of that charge goes to reduce the costs of the charity they are calling!


I believe that the charity should however encourage non-BT callers to understand that they are paying premium rates because a small part of what they pay is helping the charity, by reducing its bills. For the more sophisticated, they could also explain that BT callers get a good deal (incurring no premium or even what looks like a discount) solely because of out-dated legacy regulation that is probably about to be lifted.


I have no essential problem with a charity that imposes modest charges on those it serves, so long as it is prepared to be honest and judged on that basis. Given that the cost actually incurred is largely a premium to the benefit of a third party, and some escape this altogether, this method of funding is however rather tricky to defend.



I would be delighted if someone who understands the particular nature of those who inhabit England's largest (or nearly largest) county, by various measures, could help us gain a proper appreciation of special factors which apply. These would, of course also apply to NHS Devon.

Although this is essentially an issue between a charity and those who use its services, the use of NHS funding gives us all a proper interest - even though I cannot understand how the Virtual Carers Centre falls within the proper scope of the NHS.

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Oct 11^th, 2011 at 12:29am:

One will probably find that none of the many organisations actually operating this service are "NHS bodies". If this is true, then they would fall outside the strict terms of the DH Directions.

Maybe, but they do not fall outside The Consumer Protection Act 1987 Part III, Misleading Price Indications:-
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1987/43 and should be reported to the ASA, (http://www.asa.org.uk/Complaints/How-to-complain/Online-Form/Step1.aspx), as they now control websites.


.

Just out of interest wouldnt GP's 0844 come under this 'Misleading Cost thing ' if so this would be another line of attack, to add to Breach of Contract.

Posted on wrong thread :-[

Dave wrote on Oct 10^th, 2011 at 11:37am:

The website is [url=www.devoncarerscentre.org.uk[/url]]www.devoncarerscentre.org.uk[/url] and it says: Quote: The New Devon Virtual Carers Centre Thank you for your interest in the Devon Carers Link, Devon Learning Disability Carers and Devon Young Carers services. All of these are now part of the Devon Virtual Carers Centre. The integration of these and other services will mean that we are able to provide more and better services to Carers in Devon. More information is below. The Devon Virtual Carers Centre will have a new website (for more information about the changes read on below) but, for now, you can click on one of the logos on the left to visit one of the existing websites. For more information, call: 08456 434 435 The website for Devon Carers Link gives a similar number, 08456 431 341. At the bottom of the page it makes the claim that: Calls charged at local rates. No more than 3p per minute (plus VAT) from a BT line. Mobile and other providers may vary.

This has now been rectified following my complaint to the ASA

I received the following e-mail this morning:-

"Dear Mr *****

YOUR COMPLAINT ABOUT DEVON COUNTY COUNCIL / DEVON CARERS LINK WEBSITE

Thank you for contacting the ASA and for your patience while we have dealt with the issues raised.

We thought you had made a valid point so, with a view to acting quickly, we informed the advertiser of your complaint (without revealing your identity) and they have assured us that the website will be amended to state “Calls cost no more than 2.04p per minute (plus set up fee of 12.50p) from a BT line. Mobile and other providers may vary.”  We have also received a written assurance to that effect.

On this basis, we will now be closing our file informally which means that basic information, including the advertisers’ name and where the ad appeared, will be published on our website: www.asa.org.uk on 2 November 2011.

Thank you for taking the time to bring this matter to our attention.

Yours sincerely