I'm practically about to go in to orbit with crossness here about this after just having all of my remaining 4.34 Euros of Credit Balance on my Orange Mundo Spanish mobile phone SIM card wiped out for calling Plusnet's 0345 140 0200 Technical Support number back in the UK for just 12 seconds.

After being connected to an automated IVR system for 12 seconds I was cut off for reaching zero credit whereas I would have expected an 03 number to only be charged just the same way as a call to a UK 01 or 02 number with the Orange SIM Mundo (see http://movil.orange.es/tarifas/llamar-a-otro-pais/tarjeta-sim-mundo/) and so to have only cost 30 cents connection plus 1 Euro cent per minute for however many minutes the call lasted.

Now neatly tucked away in the small details of call charges to the UK one can find this statement about non standard call charges to fixed lines:-

Reino Unido    0,01€/min.
Reino Unido Local Rate   0,11€/min.
Reino Unido Personal    0,19€/min
Reino Unido Premium   15,4€/min

However nowhere does it say that 03 numbers have bizarrely been classed by Orange Spain as being "Premium Rate", especially when it lists a "Local Rate" charge of 11 cents per minute and this is the most one could possibly believe one might risk being charged, even though Ofcom's General Condition for 03 numbers makes it perfectly clear that only the same rate as for 01/02 calls can be charged.

Bearing in mind that the most expensive Premium Rate numbers only cost 1.50GBP per minute from a UK landline (although there does seem to be despicable tradition of charging a lot more than this from UK mobiles rather than just a fair extra charge or 10 or 20p per minute at most to cover the value of a mobile vs a landline call)  Orange Spain's charge to premium numbers of 15.40 Euros per minute simply beggars belief. Bizarrely they do however offer a near cut price rate of only 19 cents per minute to call 070 PNS numbers run by hospital bedside scam lines.

Now as Ofcom's General Conditions probably only covers UK operators are Orange Spain just going to say hard cheese and we can charge what we like or are they going to turn around and admit they were wrong and either only charge their "Local rate" of 11 cents a minute or their "Geographic Rate" of 1 cent pr minute.

The main issues with Orange Spain is that their customer service number of 470 (free call) only speaks Spanish and they always press a button that cuts you off and sends a text telling you to call their "Service In English" on 902 011 900 but failing to mention that this costs 58 Euro cents per minute plus a 30 cent connection fee.  Thanks to this the first time I called this number to raise billing inaccuracies on my online account I lost about 8 Euros in credit during the call.

As the main Orange Spain customers service people on 470 refuse to accept my Pigeon Spanish and as no email address is listed for Orange Spain at www.ceoemail.com this does seem to be a near nightmare situation that is impossible to get corrected

The only progress I have made so far was after discovering the Facebook page for Orange Spain at http://www.facebook.com/OrangeESP where a few choice posts about the 58 cent per minute foreigner exploitation and the disgrace of charging 03 numbers at 15.4 Euros per minute has got me a couple of messages from one of their customer service people to provide more details.  However when then I set out my problems in English in a Facebook message I got a message back saying they only spoke Spanish.  I have now translated my message to Spanish using Google Translate.

Either way Orange Spain is clearly behaving quite outrageously (something for which they have previously established form) but who knows if OfCoN will do anything about it.  A further complication is that Orange Spain is not part of Everything Everywhere but is instead a wholly owned subsidiary of Orange France.

So for anyone else visiting Spain and looking for a cheap way to call the UK beware of calling 03 numbers and beware of calling any 902 number with an Orange Sim Mundo Spanish SIM card.

I wouldn't have thought that the Ofcom General Condition can apply to providers in other territories.

Perhaps contact the Spannish regulator, Comisión del Mercado de las Telecomunicaciones (CMT).

Dave wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2013 at 9:55pm:

Perhaps contact the Spannish regulator, Comisión del Mercado de las Telecomunicaciones (CMT).

The difficulty may be in ascertaining who's job it is to indicate to Orange Spain the error of their ways.  I mean is it Ofcom's job to contact the Spanish Ministry and then theirs to contact Orange Spain or quite what exactly?  It also says much for Ofcom's truly pathetic failure to advertise the existence and status of 03 numbers that this should have happened at all.

If even I get caught by losing money calling the 902 number (which I thought would only be charged on the Local Rate basis) and also the 03 number then think how many other people are getting rooked this way by Orange Spain.  I also think that those who believe all these abuses will end when the Service Charge has to split out are also living in something of a fantasy world.

NGMsGhost wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2013 at 10:27pm:

If even I get caught by losing money calling the 902 number (which I thought would only be charged on the Local Rate basis) and also the 03 number then think how many other people are getting rooked this way by Orange Spain.  I also think that those who believe all these abuses will end when the Service Charge has to split out are also living in something of a fantasy world.

The point is that you have been overcharged and/or the call rate for UK 03 numbers has not been published. There is also the question of whether regulations in Spain allow such a high call rate to be levied.

But this is pay as you go for you. You have no itemisation to demonstrate that you did incur these charges, which makes it all the more difficult to pursue. It is plain wrong that providers are allowed to get away without providing any form of itemisation, but the powers that be allow them to do so.

Dave wrote on Oct 4^th, 2013 at 12:11am:

But this is pay as you go for you. You have no itemisation to demonstrate that you did incur these charges, which makes it all the more difficult to pursue. It is plain wrong that providers are allowed to get away without providing any form of itemisation, but the powers that be allow them to do so.

Dave,

But that is just where you are wrong as I believe possibly due to regulatory requirements all Spanish Pay As You Go mobile operators I have so far been with (the other two, Simyo and Pepephone, were Vodafone MVNOs that proved impractical because of their requirement to use the phone every two or three months compared to Orange's only once in every 13 months) they all do provide full itemisation after calls have been made via their online website.  So I have full itemisation that the call cost me this outrageous amount for 12 seconds but there was no way of knowing before I made it that Orange would deem 00 44 3 numbers as being "Premium Rate" at 15.4 Euros per minute

Also even in the UK full itemisation of call cost (even if it is use of one's free monthly minutes or texts) is available for customers of www.ovivomobile.com proving that it is not a regulatory requirement not to provide such itemisation but merely a mafia like cartel agreement between the UK big boys not to do so.

In any event here is the itemisation which proves the point I was making in my Original Post in this thread.

I have not blanked any of the numbers called as they are either Plusnet's number, geographic numbers for Glasgow 2014 (Commonwealth Games) or their own Free Service In Spanish 470 customer services number, who refused to talk to me and kept texting me to call their 902 Service In English number which they totally failed to mention would cost me 58 cents per minute.  I did not call it due to being stung with 58 cent per minute charges for calling it in October last year.

listado de llamadas estas son las llamadas que has realizado entre el 18/09/2013 y el 03/10/2013 para ver tu listado de descargas pulsa aquí .

fecha      destino      tipo      inicio      duración / volumen      coste      promocional

03/10/2013      00443451400200      VOZ      08:21:08       00h 00m 12s      4,34 €      No
02/10/2013      00441413872014      VOZ      14:27:14       00h 00m 21s      0,31 €      No
02/10/2013      00441413872014      VOZ      14:26:14       00h 00m 51s      0,31 €      No
02/10/2013      470      VOZ      12:34:50       00h 08m 59s      0,00 €      No
02/10/2013      470      VOZ      12:21:57       00h 05m 46s      0,00 €      No
02/10/2013      470      VOZ      12:12:11       00h 09m 31s      0,00 €      No
02/10/2013      470      VOZ      12:09:04       00h 02m 46s      0,00 €      No
02/10/2013      470      VOZ      12:08:15       00h 00m 42s      0,00 €      No
02/10/2013      470      VOZ      12:06:59       00h 01m 08s      0,00 €      No
02/10/2013      470      VOZ      12:02:43       00h 03m 57s      0,00 €      No
02/10/2013      00441414142014      VOZ      11:56:46       00h 05m 42s      0,37 €      No
02/10/2013      470      VOZ      11:52:00       00h 00m 37s      0,00 €      No
02/10/2013      470      VOZ      11:50:58       00h 00m 51s      0,00 €      No
02/10/2013      470      VOZ      11:49:11       00h 01m 38s      0,00 €      No
02/10/2013      470      VOZ      11:46:45       00h 02m 13s      0,00 €      No

Family Mobile is another payg provider that gives you fully itemised bill.

http://www.yourfamilymobile.co.uk/services/itemised-bill

bigjohn wrote on Oct 4^th, 2013 at 9:52am:

Family Mobile is another payg provider that gives you fully itemised bill. http://www.yourfamilymobile.co.uk/services/itemised-bill

They are a lot more expensive to use than Ovivo though, especially for data.

For future reference, you should be able to get through to Plusnet on 0114 296 5188, as listed in the database.

kasg wrote on Oct 4^th, 2013 at 11:03am:

For future reference, you should be able to get through to Plusnet on 0114 296 5188, as listed in the database.

Yes I realised afterwards I could have done that.  I just didn't expect there to be a need to have used it as 03 numbers appeared to have finally been accepted and Post Office Homephone and 1899 etc have long accepted them as Normal Rate numbers.  To charge them at Premium Rate at 15.4 Euros per minute rather than NonGeographic/"Local" at 18 cents per minute is inexcusable.  There is also an Ofcom General Condition to that effect.

Now I have a ridiculous reply from Orange Spain customer services claiming they are not responsible for what UK numbers charge for calling them.  You really couldn't make it up could you.

If anyone can track down a Twitter account for any top brass of Orange Spain Or Orange France (the parent company) it would be extremely helpful.

And think if even I am getting scammed like this with these numbers think what is happening to Mr and Mrs Average when on seas on holiday here.........

NGMsGhost wrote on Oct 4^th, 2013 at 11:32am:

Yes I realised afterwards I could have done that.  I just didn't expect there to be a need to have used it as 03 numbers appeared to have finally been accepted and Post Office Homephone and 1899 etc have long accepted them as Normal Rate numbers.  To charge them at Premium Rate at 15.4 Euros per minute rather than NonGeographic/"Local" at 18 cents per minute is inexcusable.  There is also an Ofcom General Condition to that effect.

Totally agree with you. There may be a wider issue with charges from overseas to 03 numbers. Also, I confess I hadn't noticed who made the OP, otherwise I might not have posted that!

There may be something in what Orange Spain are saying. The requirement for 03 numbers to be charged the same as 01 and 02 numbers applies only to calls that originate from the UK.

It may well be that the UK network that terminates the 03 call, charges Orange Spain 10 to 14 Euros per minute for doing so. I would check that out first. Orange Spain might not be wholly responsibe for the level of rip-off.

Ian G wrote on Oct 4^th, 2013 at 11:49am:

It may well be that the UK network that terminates the 03 call, charges Orange Spain 10 to 14 Euros per minute for doing so. I would check that out first. Orange Spain might not be wholly responsibe for the level of rip-off.

Sorry I just don't buy that as Orange Spain also have a Local Rate UK number rate charged at 11 cents per minute (not to mention a bargain rate 070 PNS number charge of 19 cents per minute) so the worst that one would surely expect happen is that the 03 numbers are being charged as Local Rate numbers.  There is no way one would expect they would be charged as per an 09 number and also I know for a fact that Orange Spain's charge from the UK network for a genuine £1.50 per minute to the customer 09 Premium rate number will only be around £1 per minute.  These rates like 15 Euros per minute are just old fashioned robbery amounts dreamed up on the basis customers won't realise they are paying them until all their balance has gone.

Also if 03 numbers are actually being charged to call from outside the UK at rates way higher than 01/02 numbers and also way above 0844 and 0871 then that is clearky something Ofcom should find most alarming and start to do something about.  After all it was they who stupidly allowed 03 numbers to have an underlying inter industry charging structure that was different from 01/02 numbers whilst requiring that the consumer still paid no more than for 01/02 numbers.

The trouble is there always people like you and SilentCallsVictim in this forum who unfortunately don't seem to recognise that the gut instincts of some commercial companies and to exploit and sting the customer as much as they can.  Many of the people responsible in these companies would cheerfully sell their own grandmother or commit murder if it made a profit so long as it wasn't against the law or at least so long as they didn't think they would get caught.

Commercial marketing people in my experience are unfortunately completely amoral.

Also my reply at Orange came from a frontline Facebook support page person.  If you don't recognise a stock made up off the top of their head customer service person response when you see one then you clearly haven't learned very much about real life.

Until you have actually checked the level of termination rate the UK 03 provider levies on Orange Spain everything you say here is merely the keyboard equivalent of hot air.

I resent the "people like you" accusation. I'll tell you now. From the outside this forum does not look like a friendly or welcoming place. Perhaps that explains the low number of people here?

Hmm,

Some posts seem to have disappeared including the one from the chap saying it probably wasn't Orange Spain's fault they charged me an eye watering 15.4 Euros per minute.  Unsurprisingly I took exception to such a statement.

Ian G wrote on Oct 4^th, 2013 at 12:34pm:

I'll tell you now. From the outside this forum does not look like a friendly or welcoming place. Perhaps that explains the low number of people here?

Clearly if your living is fleecing the public by propagating the existence of high priced NGNs then this forum does not look friendly or welcoming.  I make no apology for that.  People working in that industry are the enemy as far as I am concerned.

I think to everybody else who bitterly resents telecoms extortion and its reliance on people thinking a premium number is normal rate when they call it undoubtedly this looks a perfectly reasonably discussion forum.  A certain kind of person (usually of a customer service person mentality who does not believe we aer individually capable of rational deductive reasoning and demands us to facts their ba****d employers will never ever reveal to the general public) will always say "how do you know that" and you can't say that if our ba*****d employer hasn't disclosed the facts to you.  But in realitry its just common sense that no wholesale buyer is going to agree to a rate anywhere near 15 Euros.

Your problem is that you're bolshie and rude to people that are actually on your side.

Ian G wrote on Oct 4^th, 2013 at 1:35pm:

Your problem is that you're bolshie and rude to people that are actually on your side.

If you could direct me to some proof that the Spanish network is being charged 10 Euros or more by the English network to connect the call then I would be inclined to have taken your assertions more seriously.

Instead of which you just challenge my comments without offering any factual basis as to why you feel entitled to do so.  This is bound to cause disagreements or misunderstandings.

The true profile of someone who actively avoids 084/7 numbers is usually that they are difficult and bolshie in my experience.  Go with the flow merchants just ring them because they hear all their friends have to do it too........

At the end of the day Ofcom will try and pass the buck, Plusnet will try and pass the buck and Orange Spain will also try and pass the buck for the ripoff charge.  How do you expect me not to get cross?  I was jolly lucky I only had 5 Euros credit left on the SIM as I could easily have lost 50 Euros calling the number.  Orange Spain is extremely frustrating in not offering an Executive Complaints facility for policy type issues and their insistence on only speaking Spanish when their company serves a large number of English and German holiday home owners.

I haven't got proof of that. I merely raised it as a possibility. Since Orange Spain say that's the case, I would expect you to check whether it is true or a lie before proceeding. Once you know the truth as to where the excessive price comes from, you'll be able to take it further with the right body. I'm not challenging your comments, I'm merely looking at someone who's having a tantrum without all of the facts in hand, and perhaps not aiming their ire in the right direction. Don't shoot the messenger, or yourself in the foot.


Quote:

At the end of the day Ofcom will try and pass the buck, Plusnet will try and pass the buck and Orange Spain will also try and pass the buck for the ripoff charge.

Of course, they will all try to pass the buck. That's why you need to find out where the high charge originates. So far, you're just making assumptions. Earlier in this thread you said

Quote:

The trouble is there always people like you and SilentCallsVictim in this forum who unfortunately don't seem to recognise that the gut instincts of some commercial companies and to exploit and sting the customer as much as they can.  Many of the people responsible in these companies would cheerfully sell their own grandmother or commit murder if it made a profit so long as it wasn't against the law or at least so long as they didn't think they would get caught. Commercial marketing people in my experience are unfortunately completely amoral.

but now you're saying these completely amoral people woudn't extend as far as charging a Spanish mobile network 10 Euros per minute to terminate a call to an 03 number. So, are they "completely amoral", or "not quite completely amoral"?

Ian G wrote on Oct 4^th, 2013 at 2:10pm:

but now you're saying these completely amoral people woudn't extend as far as charging a Spanish mobile network 10 Euros per minute to terminate a call to an 03 number. So, are they "completely amoral", or "not quite completely amoral"?

OK I thought about it some more and this ought to be an Ofcom problem to deal with as potentially the Uk terminating network is also involved in the scam.

However I am still far from sure this is the case as Orange Spain merely has a blanket outrageous charge of 15.40 Euros per minute to all Premium Rate numbers but does not define Premium Rate in the normal way (09 numbers).  It is likely 0844 and 0845 are covered by their 11 cent per minute Local Rate charge and 070 clearly must be Personal Numbers at 19 cents per minute.  Beyond this one could expect Orange Spain to also charge 15.40 Euros per minute to call 0871 as they are clearly more expensive than 03s to terminate.

But whilst you encourage me to get to the bottom of the problem how do you expect me to do so.  Orange is a commercial company and does not have to make any disclosures to me under FOI.  The only FOI I could submit would be to Ofcom about any investigation they have conducted in to costs of overseas fixed line and mobile networks terminating calls with UK networks and whether this undermines their General Condition re 03 numbers for overseas callers.

To be honest this isn't my job.  My job is to express the outrage at being ripped off here and to email the CEO of Orange France linking to this thread and also copying it to journalists  who have previously done work in this area.  Beyond that it is up to the press to dig deeper as they may have the necessary resources including possibly sending an undercover mole to work in the marketing department of Orange Spain (the only way one would find the true answer about the scam 15.40 Euros per minute charges).

The thing is that when i have a gut instinct about something more often than not I am proved right when facts emerged.  Others like you don't have a "common sense" brain like mine and seem to demand facts to prove assertions even though they clearly aren't available as the miscreants in question are not willing to provide them.

This file will tell you who terminates the call: http://www.ofcom.org.uk/static/numbering/s3_code.txt

Ian G wrote on Oct 4^th, 2013 at 10:42pm:

This file will tell you who terminates the call: http://www.ofcom.org.uk/static/numbering/s3_code.txt

Plusnet's 0345 support number is 0345 140 0200

And your file link shows the following entry:-

"3451","40","","Allocated","","Virgin Media Wholesale Limited",,"10/2009",

So I suppose this is the basis of a complaint to the CEO of Virgin Media about what I am being charged by Orange Spain and asking what their wholesale charge to Orange Spain for connecting the call is.

It is also the basis of a complaint to Ofcom that either Virgin Media is in violation of GC17 for calls connected from overseas networks or alternatively that GC17 is being circumvented by overseas networks wrongly deeming 03 numbers as being the same cost as the most expensive 09s.  Either way Virgin Media may be to blame for the overseas network wrongly forming the view that 03 numbers are premium Rate.

It is also the basis of a complaint to the CEO of Plusnet that they advertise 0345 140 0200 as the way to contact from mobiles.  I used this number from a Spanish mobile expecting it to be charged as per a call to a UK 01/02 number at 1 cent per minute plus connection of 15 cents to 30 cents (depends on whether you have added credit to your phone this week or not) and it was instead charged at a Premium Rate of 15.40 Euros.

Have I missed anyone on the list of people to complain to.  Of course there is also the CEO of Orange France and/or France Telecom (the parent companies since Orange Spain does not seem to have a way to contact its CEO or Executive Complaints team).  I don't think PhonePayPlus are involved directly but they may be interested that a non Premium Rate number not regulated by them is being charged way above the level of the most expensive Premium Rate numbers.

Oh and why do I get angry.  Well because writing all the above emails would take a huge amount of effort and take several hours.  And only then if I am very lucky might I get my 4 Euros something back.  If am even luckier Orange Spain will start charging UK 03 numbers as per 02 numbers and only if a large pig flies by will Virgin Media get fined if they are in any way complicit in callers from Spain being over charged for calling UK 03 numbers.  This is all beacuse of a weak and useless regulator (or alternatively a corrupt and complicit regulator) who only ever acts to protect the consumer virtually almost never.  They intervene in disputes between commercial competitors almost every day of the week..........

NGMsGhost wrote on Oct 5^th, 2013 at 9:43am:

Have I missed anyone on the list of people to complain to.

Please understand that this comment is made without specific knowledge, but just to raise a possibility that seems likely.

It is perhaps assumed that the call is passed directly from Orange Spain (OCP) to Virgin Media UK (TCP) and the charge is based on an agreement between them - regulated by the respective national regulators.

I have my doubts that agreements covering each number range in very country exist between every such pair of companies across the world. I have seen the term "international gateway", with a reference to such organisations having a role in the commercial aspect of international telephone traffic. I would expect such gateways to have arrangements with each ultimate TCP in the countries it serves and thereby to offer a (simplified) tariff to the various OCPs. It could be that there are separate outgoing and incoming gateways for each country, or perhaps a group of countries. There are indeed myriad other possibilities, especially where a company operates in a number of countries and has no need to use an external gateway (perhaps having its own between its national subsidiaries).

The ITU will undoubtedly have a role to play, as this is part of its function. It is also unthinkable that the cost of calls between member states is not subject to some EU Directive - we are familiar with its involvement over the issue of roaming (which is not the issue here).

I regret that I am not able to offer any more help with this issue, but am very keen to pick up on whatever any other member may be able to contribute to our understanding of this matter. It is bound to be very complex, despite that fact that the core issue is that the OP has clearly and simply been ripped off by a wholly unjustifiable charge being imposed.

I fear that more research will be necessary before it can be established where the blame lies.

Its now 19.2 Euros/min to call a UK 03 (see http://movil.orange.es/tarifas/llamar-a-otro-pais/tarjeta-sim-mundo/) - so I have sent the below email to Orange Spain's CEO.

To: jean-marc.vignolles@francetelecom.com

Further to my previous below email of Sunday February 2nd 2013, to your colleague Benoit Scheen, perhaps it may be helpful for us to now focus on the core issues.  It would appear that you, as Chief Executive Officer for that territory, would in fact be best placed to answer my various previous questions to Orange about certain aspects of the operation of its mobile phone brand within the Spanish marketplace.

Most of these issues unfortunately seem to involve discriminatory mistreatment of non Spanish residents and/or non Spanish speakers from other parts of the European Union who are customers of the Orange Spain mobile brand.  They also involve a serious potential violation of the EU Directive restricting the maximum cost of calling ordinary landline numbers in other EU member states to a maximum of 24 cents (+VAT) per minute at the present time as well as an apparent attempt to impede the operation of the European Single Market by refusing to accept credit and debit card payments to top up Orange mobile accounts from citizens of other EU countries not permanently resident in Spain.

In descending order of seriousness from most serious downwards my current issues with Orange Spain would appear to be as follows:-

1. Overcharging Orange Spain customers at 15.40 Euros Per Minute For Calls To UK 03 Customer Service Numbers In Violation of The Spirit and Purpose of  Ofcom General Condition 17 - see http://media.ofcom.org.uk/2007/02/13/ofcom-introduces-uk-wide-03-numbers/  This action would also appear to breach the EU's current Directive restricting the maximum cost of calls to ordinary landline numbers in other member states (in this case the UK) to no more than 24 cents per minute (+VAT) if this 15.40 Euro per minute charge is also levied on any customers of networks in other EU countries who are currently roaming in Spain with Orange.  These UK numbers commencing +44 3 need to all be reclassified in your Orange Spain call charges database to be only charged at the same rate as any other ordinary UK landline number.

2. Discriminating Against Any Non Spanish Resident, Including Citizens of Other EU Member States, Wishing To Use an Orange SIM Card By Refusing To Allow Non Spanish Credit And Debit Cards From Other EU Member States To Be Used To Top Up Any Orange Spain SIM Card Balances.  This Seems Completely Unacceptable Given That Your Recently Launched Orange Top-Up Product Actually Encourages Use of The Orange Mobile Network As A Means Of Making Cross Border Payments.  Please Therefore Make Up Your Mind Whether You Are A Large Cross Border Multi National Mobile Phone Brand Or Only A Small Parochial Xenophobic Spanish Brand Only Interested Only In Serving Spanish Resident Customers?  Your Ban On The Use Of Credit Cards From Other EU Member States May Well Also Violate Various European Directives Aimed At Creating A Single European Market.

3. Discriminatorily Charging Customers Who Need Customer Service From Orange Spain In EU Languages Other Than Spanish By Refusing To Deal With Customers Who Do Not Speak Word Perfect Spanish On Your Free 470 Customer Service Line And Instead Immediately Cutting Them Off And Sending Them A Text Telling Them To Call A 902 Number Run By An Outsourced Call Centre Bureau In Their Own Language Without First Telling Customers The Cost Of Making These Calls Is 58 Cents Per Minute Plus Connection Fee of Up To 30 Cents Per Call.  In The United Kingdom It Is Illegal To Give Customers Premium Rate Numbers (902 numbers called from mobiles are clearly charged at a substantial premium above the cost of other ordinary calls from mobiles to business and residential numbers in Spain) Without Also At The Same Time Alerting Them To The High And Non Standard Call Cost Of Using Such Numbers.

4. Only Providing Orange Spain Pay As You Go Customers With 3.5 Months of Online Call History To Review Their Billing Records.   This Policy Will Have A Greater Impact On Overseas Orange Spain Customers Who May Only Use Their SIM Card For One Month A Year And So Will Never Have Any Significant Billing History They Can Review.  However This Policy Is Generally Unnecessary and Undesirable For All Pay As You Go Customers Of Orange Spain and Since Hard Drive Space Is Cheap But Call Centre Worker Enquiry Time Is Expensive The Company Should Make The Necessary Investment To Allow Customers To Review Historic Billing Records For Up To Six Years.  This Is In Line With An Agreed Industry Standard Between Large European Banks For Online Account Record Keeping Where Six Years Of Customer Account History Is Made Available Online To Avoid Customers Continuing To Need To Keep Paper Based Records.  This Is Also A Green Policy Since It Encourages Customers Not To Have To Print Out Records In Order To Maintain A Full Billing History.

I must apologise for needing to raise these matters with you personally but as you can see from the below previous email chain I have tried to raise these matters in the past with your Spanish customer service staff without any success as they unfortunately appear to act in a discriminatory manner towards customers who they see as either non Spanish speaking and/or customers who are permanently resident overseas but who still use Orange SIMs.

Forgive me if this one has already been suggested in this thread, but what about writing to one or more of your MEPs?

Dave wrote on Feb 5^th, 2014 at 3:12am:

Forgive me if this one has already been suggested in this thread, but what about writing to one or more of your MEPs?

Very good suggestion Dave.  I hadn't thought of that one.  I shall be writing to both Daniel Hannan and Nirj Deeva forthwith copying them in on the preceding correspondence.

In fact I think I should ask for a surgery appointment and seem which of them offers me one.  I should have another Conservative Euro MP or two in the South East region on top of these two (both of whom I have actually met but not for a long time) although will have to check if there is a UKIP one.  UKIP ought to love this kind of example of the filthy foreigners over charging the honest Brits on holiday.

Basically Orange Spain disingenuously (posh speak for lieing) try and blame it on the British Telecoms terminating party (Virgin Media) and/or the called party (Plusnet) whereas I am pretty certain they have just decided to charge 19.2 Euros per minute for and class as Premium Rate any UK number code which they have not defined in their database as being "Geographic 01/02 - Channel Islands + IOM of course", "Local Rate" or "Personal".

I cannot find anywhere on the www.orange.es website a comprehensive list of Uk dialling codes and the corresponding per minute charge raised.  They only list the four charging classes for the SIM Mundo on their website for the UK and I also cannot seem to find a more general list of call charges for calling the UK for their customers anywhere else on the Orange Spain website.

Unfortunately in Spain itself the concept of Fair Trading and Consumer Rights is somewhat embryonic to put it mildly, especially if the person seeking to assert their consumer rights is a citizen of another EU member country.

EDIT:-On further consideration I suppose I may also need to enlist the support of a local MEP in Spain.  I don't even know if they have a single list for the whole of Spain or if only certain Spanish MEPs represent the Balearic Islands.

NGMsGhost, the link I gave you is for looking up MEPs on the European Parliament website.  ;)

For Spain there are 54 members and the country is not divided into separate constituency areas. I wonder why this is so.

It may also be worth doing some research to see if there are any committees whose interest encompasses telecommunications services.

There are essentially two issues:

1. The question of whether the call charge exceeds any limit set by the EU or Spain.

2. The fact that UK 03 calls are not categorised the same as UK 01/02 calls.


In relation to issue number 2, does a body, perhaps the ITU, keep a database of number types/classes in different countries? If so, is it the case that 03 isn't listed in under the "geographic" category? Maybe it is essentially under "other" which includes all manner of expensive numbers which is why the rate is the highest across all calls to UK numbers. Is it Ofcom's job to tell ITU?

Hey folks

If you have any problems with a business service, just ask to see the "hojas de reclamaciones" (complaints book), they must provide this by law on the premises. From reading through a few forums it seems to have a bit of an affect on their attitude.

I have had ridiculous problems with orange spain, and am hoping to get something done about it. How many other customers are they treating this badly and getting away with it?