Is there somewhere you can make an official complaint re companies not complying?

Is there a link to a simple explanation of the directive?

I ask because CPC, ( http://cpc.farnell.com/jsp/bespoke/bespoke3.jsp?bespokepage=cpc/en_CC/support/help/contactinformation.jsp), are still using 0844 numbers despite me emailing them last week to change the numbers, I had no reply whatsoever from them.


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~ Edited by Dave: Thread split off and renamed

You can report it to the Citizen's Advice "Consumer Helpline" on 0345 404 0506.
They collect and collate these reports and pass them on to Trading Standards where appropriate.

This explains the new regulations:
http://fairtelecoms.org.uk/consumer-rights-directive.html
The regulations cover B2C, not B2B, transactions.

Ian G wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2014 at 9:43am:

You can report it to the Citizen's Advice "Consumer Helpline" on 0345 404 0506. They collect and collate these reports and pass them on to Trading Standards where appropriate. This explains the new regulations: http://fairtelecoms.org.uk/consumer-rights-directive.html The regulations cover B2C, not B2B, transactions.

I did send them that link, but it is not an "official" page.Also clicking on the first link, "Consumer Rights Directive" brings up a "EUR-Lex page with "The requested document does not exist."

I also sent them this one: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-cuts-off-costly-calls   should that suffice?


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Have you noticed that CA "Contact us page" http://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/index/getadvice.htm still advertise 0844 numbers and even offer an explanation as to why they use them: http://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/index/getadvice/why_we_use_084_numbers.htm


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derrick wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2014 at 10:18am:

Have you noticed that CA "Contact us page" http://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/index/getadvice.htm still advertise 0844 numbers and even offer an explanation as to why they use them: http://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/index/getadvice/why_we_use_084_numbers.htm.

CA has secured additional funding which will enable it to dispense with the 0844 numbers for access to the Bureaux and Advice services. The work is underway and is promised for completion by the end of September.

The EUR-Lex website seems to be having problems today.
Many documents do not load or cannot be found.


Send them these links:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/3134/regulation/41/made
http://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/310044/bis-13-1368-consumer-contracts-information-cancellation-and-additional-payments-regulations-guidance.pdf#page=23

Ian G wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2014 at 11:50am:

The EUR-Lex website seems to be having problems today. Many documents do not load or cannot be found. Send them these links: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/3134/regulation/41/made http://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/310044/bis-13-1368-consumer-contracts-information-cancellation-and-additional-payments-regulations-guidance.pdf#page=23

Sent them the links, informing them that they need to change their numbers, they responded with the reply below:-

Thank you for the below correspondence which has been forwarded by one of my colleagues, I apologise that you have felt the need to express concern in regards to our 0844 telephone number.
We are aware that there has been a change in legislation which is currently under review by our legal department, however as we only have one direct line into the contact centre and the use of the 0844 number can still be used as a sales line we need to ensure that all correct processes are followed.
We use the 08447 number mainly to guarantee ongoing normal business in the event of a disaster or corporate relocation, so that customer’s access to CPC will not be disrupted and the number will stay the same.Should such an instance occur our calls would be diverted to Premier Farnell in order that our customers are still able to make contact.
We are aware that there are ongoing investigations into the use of the 08447 number by some companies, under the suspicion that calls are deliberately kept on hold to maximise revenue, please be assured that this is not the case with CPC and we are constantly monitoring our services in order to improve and greatly appreciate the feedback given.

In the meanwhile please feel free to use our 01772 65 44 55 contact number or orders can be sent to orders@cpc.co.uk and enquiries to sales@cpc.co.uk


Once again thank you for taking to the time to inform us,



Now I believe that the fact they only have one number that "can still be used as a sales line", does not exempt them from the legislation,( a fact easily overcome anyway by using an 0344 number that I understand has to be offered free of charge from their telco), as the same number, by definition, has to be used if the customer wishes to complain or exercise their cancellation rights, as per section J in the PDF link you provided.

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If they only have one number and, irrespective of whatever else it is used for, customers ring that number about things they have already bought, then the number has to change. If they want to retain the 0844 number for sales and set up a new 03 number for customer service functions including order tracking, returns, complaints, refunds and so on, that's another option they have open. The matching 0344 number has been available to them since 2007.

The time for "reviewing" has long since passed. The deadline for compliance was 13 June 2014. That deadline has been known ever since the EU Directive was published in October 2011. There was the possibility of the UK government enacting the provisions earlier than that deadline, but there was never a possibility of it being later than that date. The UK consultation took place in autumn 2012, draft legislation was published in August 2013 and the final version in December 2013.

Once their telecoms supplier has been informed, it's often a 24~48 hour process to get the matching 03 number working. It is a well established process - one that tens of thousands of companies have completed in recent months.

The media are starting to pick up on this story:
http://www.sundaypost.com/that-s-life/raw-deal/high-street-firms-clings-to-rip-off-phone-numbers-1.434482

Ian G wrote on Jun 25^th, 2014 at 2:15pm:

If they only have one number and, irrespective of whatever else it is used for, customers ring that number about things they have already bought, then the number has to change. If they want to retain the 0844 number for sales and set up a new 03 number for customer service functions including order tracking, returns, complaints, refunds and so on, that's another option they have open. The time for "reviewing" has long since passed. The deadline for compliance was 13 June 2014. That deadline has been known ever since the EU Directive was published in October 2011. There was the possibility of the UK government enacting the provisions earlier than that deadline, but there was never a possibility of it being later than that date. The UK consultation took place in autumn 2012, draft legislation was published in August 2013 and the final version in December 2013. Once their telecoms supplier has been informed, it's often a 24~48 hour process to get the matching 03 number working. Ofcom made these replacement numbers available in 2007. It is a well established process - one that tens of thousands of companies have completed in recent months. The media are starting to pick up on this story: http://www.sundaypost.com/that-s-life/raw-deal/high-street-firms-clings-to-rip-off-phone-numbers-1.434482

Since posting I have emailed them re all of the points in your post, I received a read receipt and await their response.


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It may be instructive to see if they have any idea what callers pay to ring their 0844 number. You'll likely get the usual "5p/min from a BT line". While that may be true (once you also add the 15p connection fee), BT accounts for very few calls. Most callers will be paying substantially more. The essential point is that most people call standard 01, 02 and 03 numbers using their inclusive allowance on their landline or mobile. Calls to 084 and 087 numbers are generally non-inclusive with every such call further pushing up the bill.

The fact the "legal team" are having deliberations over this suggests they don't get it. Is the 2p/min income from the 0844 number so vital that they are prepared to expose their customers to call prices of up to 41p/min in order to continue collecting their tiny share? From June 2015 they will be required to declare that calls to their 0844 number incur a Service Charge. All of the technical facilities of a non-geographic number are equally available on 03 and 08 numbers alike. However, usage of an the 03 number removes the exposure to high call prices. These calls must be charged the same as 01 and 02 calls and count towards inclusive allowances in the same way.

Ian G wrote on Jun 25^th, 2014 at 6:25pm:

It may be instructive to see if they have any idea what callers pay to ring their 0844 number. You'll likely get the usual "5p/min from a BT line". While that may be true (once you also add the 15p connection fee), BT accounts for very few calls. Most callers will be paying substantially more. The essential point is that most people call standard 01, 02 and 03 numbers using their inclusive allowance on their landline or mobile. Calls to 084 and 087 numbers are generally non-inclusive with every such call further pushing up the bill. The fact the "legal team" are having deliberations over this suggests they don't get it. Is the 2p/min income from the 0844 number so vital that they are prepared to expose their customers to call prices of up to 41p/min in order to continue collecting their tiny share? From June 2015 they will be required to declare that calls to their 0844 number incur a Service Charge. All of the technical facilities of a non-geographic number are equally available on 03 and 08 numbers alike. However, usage of an the 03 number removes the exposure to high call prices. These calls must be charged the same as 01 and 02 calls and count towards inclusive allowances in the same way.

I think I got most of what you say across, email that I sent them yesterday; -

Hello Sophie,

I am afraid the fact you only have one line into your contact centre does not exempt you from the legislation as customers have to use the same number to complain or exercise their DSR rights, see Section J from the PDF link I sent you:-

"J. Prohibition on customer helplines charging more than basic rate

How can I comply with the basic rate requirement?

1. Where a telephone helpline is provided, the basic rate requirement means
not charging more to phone a trader about something you have bought than
to call a friend or relative, that is to say the simple cost of connection. This
telephone number provided should not provide the trader with a contribution
to their costs 

2. The following numbers, if used by traders, would comply with the
regulations:
    Geographic numbers or numbers which are always set at the same
rate, which usually begin with the prefix 01, 02, or 03;

4. Other revenue sharing numbers would not comply. These are numbers in
which a portion of the call charge can be used to either provide a service or
make a small payment to the trader. These usually have the prefix 084 or
0871, 0872 or 0873."


This legislation came into effect on 13th June 2014 and you should have implemented it on or before that date to comply.

You could use an 03 number where your telco is obliged to offer you, free of charge, a change to the relevant 03 number, i.e the only digit changed is the 8 to a 3, and the charge to the caller is the same as 01/02 numbers and included in all phone packages.

You appear to not know, or choose to ignore, that the same call facilities are available on an 0344 number as on an 0844 number, and that you can move to the matching 0344 number by making one simple phone call to your provider to action it without incurring a penalty fee on their telephone services contract or equipment lease.

The only reason you are using an 0844 revenue sharing number is to, (covertly), extract money from your customers via the telephone system, well the EU has finally done what Ofcom should have done years ago and banned unscrupulous traders from using these numbers!

There is no number code 08447, the code is 0844, a revenue sharing number classed by Ofcom as "Business Rate numbers", you use 08447 as a disguise for the true number that can cost up to 41ppm from a mobile and are never included in phone packages!
See this Ofcom PDF publication: - http://consumers.ofcom.org.uk/files/2010/01/numbering.pdf

Chargeable 08 Business Rate numbers

These are used by large and small businesses for sales, enquiry and

customer service lines and for some pay-as-you go internet access

services.

0843 and 0844

How much do calls cost? Calls are charged between 1p and 13p per

minute for landline customers. Calls from mobile phones are typically charged between

20p and 41p per minute, depending on the provider and the number called.


Think about it, if you are concerned for your customers then you should, morally, be using an 03 number if your laughable comment, "event of a disaster or corporate relocation" is to be believed!

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I would not have included the words "These are used by large and small businesses for sales, enquiry and customer service lines and for some pay-as-you go internet access services."

You cannot ascertain their motives for using these numbers and it looks silly to make such accusations. In many cases, they are simply the victim of a slick telecoms salesman who has assured them "calls are local rate", calls are just 5p/min", calls are 'lo-call' rate" and so forth, and has also offered them a 2p/min rebate as a sweetener.

They are unlikely to have been informed about the cost of calls from mobile phones. This is why Ofcom's "unbundled tariff" system is so important. They will be required to declare their number incurs a 7p/min Service Charge on top of the money the caller pays their own provider to connect and convey the call. This will be a wake up call to remaining users of these numbers.

Ian G wrote on Jun 26^th, 2014 at 10:47am:

I would not have included the words "These are used by large and small businesses for sales, enquiry and customer service lines and for some pay-as-you go internet access services."

I did not include them as such, but quoted from the Ofcom leaflet link I included to show them the cost of these numbers, so they would see them any way.

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My understanding is that CPC/Farnell is a B2B company. This means that their catalogues can give prices before VAT and that they can use whatever phone numbers they like for contact.

However, unlike their great rivals, RS Components, CPC/Farnell make it pretty easy for comsumers to deal with them. I'm not sure of the legal position when a company that's primarily B2B deals with a consumer. Do the full consumer aspects of Sale of Goods Act and Distance Selling regs still apply?

allegro wrote on Jun 27^th, 2014 at 7:37am:

My understanding is that CPC/Farnell is a B2B company. This means that their catalogues can give prices before VAT and that they can use whatever phone numbers they like for contact. However, unlike their great rivals, RS Components, CPC/Farnell make it pretty easy for comsumers to deal with them. I'm not sure of the legal position when a company that's primarily B2B deals with a consumer. Do the full consumer aspects of Sale of Goods Act and Distance Selling regs still apply?

They deal with all, I have an account but only to make it easier to order stuff and I am not a business, before that I could order by phone or go in and buy as a consumer, I still have that choice so I would say that they would have to abide by the regulations.

To my knowledge there is nothing on their website or in their premises that states they are B2B, although if memory serves me correctly, and I am not 100% sure, I think prices on their "in store" price tickets show before and after VAT.


Actually looking at their "Terms of Purchase, http://cpc.farnell.com/terms-and-conditions (and similar wording on the back of their invoices), they do appear to not be B2B only

10. Distance selling regulations
If the Customer is buying as a 'consumer', as defined in The Consumer Protection (Distance Selling) Regulations 2000, the Customer may, provided the Customer has taken reasonable care of the Goods and returns the Goods complete, undamaged, and with their original packaging (including the Company's outer packaging), return the Goods and be repaid the price paid in respect of them within 7 working days (excluding Saturday and Sunday and any UK or Irish Bank Holiday) of their delivery. To return Goods on this basis, the Customer must notify the Company in writing and return the Goods, in their original packaging, within 7 working days from the day of delivery to....

Although they have got most of that wrong re returning in 7 days with original packaging etc, and the fact that they have not updated to the new DSR incorporated in the new Consumer Directive.


.

It seems they have little or no awareness of the new regulations which came into force two weeks ago.

The terms and conditions need to be updated to reflect the provisions detailed in all of these
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2012/3110/made
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/3134/made
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2014/870/made

Looks like the change of phone number is just a small part of what they need to do...

RS Components terms and conditions http://uk.rs-online.com/web/generalDisplay.html?id=aboutRS&file=conditions state:


Quote:

RS is a business-to-business supplier. The RS website is intended for use by business customers and not by consumers or private individuals. Notwithstanding the foregoing, nothing in these terms and conditions of sale shall affect the statutory rights of a Customer who deals as a consumer.

This is a reasonable approach for a B2B company that may on occasion be willing to deal with consumers.  Despite the fact they will deal with consumers much more willingly than RS, Farnell in their terms and conditions state:


Quote:

25. Business customers The Company is a business to business supplier. The Catalogue and any specialogues and other product brochures produced by the Company are intended for use by business customers and not consumers. By ordering, the Customer confirms that he, she or it wishes to obtain the Supplies for the purposes of his, her or its business and not as a consumer.

But they also say this, which would appear to be in conflict with the above.


Quote:

10. Distance selling regulations If, notwithstanding the terms of Condition 25, the Customer is buying as a ‘consumer’, as defined in The Consumer Protection (Distance Selling) Regulations 2000, the Customer may, provided he or she has taken reasonable care of the Goods, return the Goods..........

(I don't think it influences my comments but I ought to declare that I am a customer of RS and have had a credit account with them for many years. In practice I nearly always pay with a credit card as it's more convenient for me. I've never had an account with CPC/Farnell and deal with them as required. Since I trade under my own name CPC/Farnell would have no means of knowing whether I was a consumer or business)

Ian G wrote on Jun 27^th, 2014 at 12:11pm:

It seems they have little or no awareness of the new regulations which came into force two weeks ago. The terms and conditions need to be updated to reflect the provisions detailed in all of these http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2012/3110/made http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/3134/made http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2014/870/made Looks like the change of phone number is just a small part of what they need to do...

Sent them your links on Friday, got an "out of office" reply, received two emails this morning
@ 0830:-
"Thank you, I will forward to our Contact Centre Manager"

Then @ 1010:-
"I have been advised that our telephones have been ordered and that we awaiting them

Thanks"


Don't know why they need to "order telephones"? I have replied asking why and suggesting they either contact their Telco to change the 8 to a 3, or to just revert to their 01772 number which can be done in minutes on their website.

Just received a reply, "Apologies, we have ordered new telephone numbers"


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I guessed that "new telephones" was a typo for "new telephone numbers".

That's good to hear.

Keep an eye on how they describe the new numbers. Many sites have changed their numbers but forgotten to amend the pricing text.

The important point is that "calls to 03 numbers cost the same as calling 01 and 02 numbers and count towards inclusive allowances on landlines and mobiles".

I hope you advised them to swap the 8 over to a 3.   :D

Ian G wrote on Jun 30^th, 2014 at 1:30pm:

I guessed that "new telephones" was a typo for "new telephone numbers". That's good to hear. Keep an eye on how they describe the new numbers. Many sites have changed their numbers but forgotten to amend the pricing text. The important point is that "calls to 03 numbers cost the same as calling 01 and 02 numbers and count towards inclusive allowances on landlines and mobiles". I hope you advised them to swap the 8 over to a 3.   :D

Ye a typo is one thing, but to guess that they missed a complete word out and added the s to make a plural to telephone(s)?

As stated in my post above yours re 8 over to a 3: "suggesting they either contact their Telco to change the 8 to a 3,or to just revert to their 01772 number which can be done in minutes on their website."


From my email to them at 1310 today:-
"All it needs is a call to your telephone provider, (Telco), to change the number 8 to a 3, i.e 0844 to 0344, this should take no longer than 48 hours, or just revert to your 01772 number, the website can be done in minutes!"


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I have just received a reply from CPC, (below), re an email I sent them on Friday asking why they still had the 0844 numbers on their website, now "due course" means nothing, any advice as to my next course of action as they are clearly in breach of the regulation?

Giving me the original number does not get away from the fact they are duping their other customers.

Thank you

As previously stated we are awaiting a new 01772 number to be allocated and this will be provided in due course, in the meanwhile you may use the original number I provided in my original response or the email address's I also provided.
We will still also continue to our 0844 number as this will be used by sales and technical service customers, we only need to provide an alternate number for customer service consumers.

Regards



.

derrick wrote on Jul 7^th, 2014 at 9:13am:

We will still also continue to our 0844 number as this will be used by sales and technical service customers, we only need to provide an alternate number for customer service consumers.

Thats only ok  provided it is a discrete service, and not one on which the caller is also expected to call to discuss problems with a purchase already made. Provided the trader makes it clear that it is a separate service for which a separate fee (paid for through the enhanced cost of the call) is payable and not one for post purchase problems.

I have just received a reply from Trading Standards,(see below), and it looks like no official body is going to protect the consumer re use of these 084 numbers.

Response:

I can confirm that Lancashire County Council Trading Standards Service received two referrals from the Citizens Advice Consumer Helpline, further to your calls to the Helpline dated 9th July and 6th August, regarding the trading practices of CPC. 

Regulation 41 of The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013, does not create a criminal offence for failure to comply and therefore is not actionable by Trading Standards. 

The Regulation creates rights for the consumer which entitles them to a refund of any costs incurred over and above the cost of calling a basic rate number should the business fail to comply with the requirement to provide a telephone line at the basic rate.

I can advise therefore that the information provided regarding CPC has been recorded but no further action has been taken at this time. However, the intelligence received will be considered and used when providing advice to Lancashire businesses in light of the changes to this legislation.

I trust the above is useful.



Yours Sincerely,

Miss P. *****

Access to Information Officer
Lancashire County Council

Email: freedomofinformation.gov.uk


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So therefore they need to be taken to the Small Claims Court for the consumer to win their case.

And there need to be a number of precedent cases before the courts will presumably then start to get tough with them?

Interestingly all numbers except the accounts team and the fax numbers are now 034.....  :-?

http://cpc.farnell.com/contact-us

CJT-80 wrote on Jul 12^th, 2015 at 10:34am:

Interestingly all numbers except the accounts team and the fax numbers are now 034.....  :-? http://cpc.farnell.com/contact-us

Replace 0844 with 0344 and they also give you 03 access. ;)

CJT-80 wrote on Jul 12^th, 2015 at 10:34am:

Interestingly all numbers except the accounts team and the fax numbers are now 034.....  :-? http://cpc.farnell.com/contact-us

And no call cost information for those 0844 numbers!

.

Feedback can be submitted here

derrick wrote on Jul 13^th, 2015 at 8:31am:

… And no call cost information for those 0844 numbers!

We may need to remember that "Clear Call Rates for Everyone" only covers C2B contact (i.e. consumers contacting businesses - or other organisations).

If the "Accounts" service is only available to traders, then there is no obligation to declare the Service Charge, as telcos do not have to apply the "Access Charge + Service Charge" principle in their 'Business' tariffs.

It seems however that many of the telcos are applying the "unbundled" principle to thier Business tariffs (to avoid having two different approaches to worry about). In practice this means that Service Providers are best advised to adopt the principle of declaring the Service Charge on all their numbers, albeit that there could be Business Customers who could thereby be wrongly advised about cost of calling - so some form of qualification may be required.

It may also be that a Service Charge is easier to justify in a B2B context, than in C2B.

bigjohn wrote on Jul 12^th, 2015 at 11:40am:

CJT-80 wrote on Jul 12th, 2015 at 10:34am: Interestingly all numbers except the accounts team and the fax numbers are now 034.....  :-? http://cpc.farnell.com/contact-us Replace 0844 with 0344 and they also give you 03 access. ;)

Accounts (unless my eyes deceive me!) now appears to have an 03 number instead!  I think that's what bigjohn was indicating, right?

So that just leaves the Fax numbers and I would assume that there are there discourage Fax spam.. after all in this day and age anything you can fax, you can scan and e-mail to them.   :-?

CJT-80 wrote on Jul 14^th, 2015 at 9:45am:

… Accounts (unless my eyes deceive me!) now appears to have an 03 number instead!

I do not think we have been deceived - whilst we were blinking, the web page has changed - another '8' has become a '3'.

:) :) :) ;D ;D ;D