When the new telephone numbering structure was implemented, it seems that BT managed in effect by some slight of hand to get Oftel to allow them to conceal certain number prefixes which they alone could use and market for clandestine purposes amongst the newly allocated 04, 05, 07 and 08 codes, to enable them to recover some of the monopoly which they had lost with the "privatisation" of telephone services. This was done by concealing these prefixes within categories intended for, and generally understood to be for, other purposes; BT decided to use them effectively for disguised "Premium Line" purposes. (The definition of a Premium Line is a number which has a higher charge then the normal "geographically" appropriate charge rate, and where part of the charge collected by the Telco is paid to the called subscriber!!! This is exactly what BT is doing with this scam of DPLs!! Note also that the charge for 0871... numbers is higher than that for 0870... numbers because a larger premium is paid to the called subscriber.) There is now a series of prefixes which BT have a monopoly in, and which all competing call carriers are therefore forced either not to provide or to provide and charge at a higher rate, because they have to pay the premium portions to BT, who have the monopoly now once again for calls with these particular codes. For example most people probably believe that all numbers with the prefix 07 are now either mobile telephone or pager numbers. This is not true, since BT have been able to inject some 07 prefix numbers which they call "Personal Numbering System" numbers, and which pay a significant premium portion of the call cost (as high as or an even higher rate than many overt Premium Line numbers) to the called subscriber. Other examples are within the 04, 05 and 08 series. They use a deceiving misnomer for these collectively - "Non-Geographic" numbers. Whatever does that mean? All fixed or landline numbers (as opposed to mobile numbers) have a specific geographical point where they are located. Unless a number is based on Mars or some planet other than earth it must be a geographic number!!

It seems that BT has been marketing the concept to many companies that if they change their number advertised to customers or their advertised number for their call centre from a normal so-called geographic number to one of these Disguised Premium Line numbers, indirectly indicating that they should then arrange for their call centre to have many times more incoming lines than operators and as many levels of menu selection as possible, significant amounts of revenue can be generated both for BT and the company with the number or operating the call centre, by forcing callers to queue and listen to the ubiquitous Musac and voice-overs. This is now the increasingly prevalent reason for relatively long waiting or queuing times when calling companies or their call centres.

I now make it a matter of principle since having discovered this not to do business with or call any company or organisation which uses these numbers, particularly 07, 0870 and 0871 prefixes, and in some instances a company might in any case be local to the area from which you were calling, and so would and should be normally at a local call rate.

This whole area and these abuses are a dishonest racket. The salient principle of the "New Telephone Numbering System" was supposed to be that subscibers could identify the category of number which they were calling and particularly could see which numbers were PREMIUM lines. BT have managed to circumvent this principle by inserting these disguised PREMIUM line numbers and marketing them in this way to companies. This is why you will find many companies now changing their advertised number for customers to a 0870... or 0871... type number. They are making significant amounts of money out of the clueless and unsuspecting callers who hold waiting for their "turn" in the queue.

As well as encouraging companies using these numbers to have as many levels of menu structure as possible BT is also encouraging companies to have as much recorded announcement prior to or interleafed with this structure as possible. This all increases the queueing time on line and makes more money for both the dishonest company and BT.

The whole thing is outrageous and a deliberate contravention of the new numbering system, and the true spirit of commercial competition, (particularly because they also then escape the requirement to state the cost per minute and that it is a premium line), which Oftel have done nothing to address. We need as many consumers as possible to complain to Oftel, so that they have to take some action to prevent BT pulling this trick any longer.

I agree, watch the Busch gardens ad carefully! It uses 0871, which I believe is 10ppm AT ALL TIMES! But they don't say what the charge is. It's the first time I have seen 0871 used for attracting new customers!
I have looked at the OFTEL website too. From what I can gather, they have introduced regulations that PROHIBIT caller's telcos from charging significantly lower prices for these numbers, after a complaint from C&W that BT were offering discounts and inclusive call allowance on their blocks of 0870/0845 numbers!
OFTEL seem more worried that the 0870/0845 (Known as Number Translation Services or NTS in the jargon) providers can generate a stable 'extra' revenue stream from these calls rather than have them go through a geographic service. Further, OFTEL actually allow this generation, and sharing with the companys they have persuaded to use 0870/0845 for their customer contacts.
The technical document states that the NTS number always has to be routed to a proper geographic number in the end so that the call centre can receive it. The NTS provider performs services, such as call pattern analysis, for the benefit of the receiving company, and WE are paying for it!

It seems to me that ALL these numbers must have a geographic equivalent (probably ex-directory) so there is hope yet of thwarting this con if enough people look through their local phone books, note when they are given (sometimes reluctantly) an alternative number, find an old leaflet with the old geographic number (it may still work) and constantly remind the businesses that use them that they KNOW what they are up to and it may influence who gets the business next time round. (I did this as a parting quip to a British Gas salesman who was peddling electricity).

All of us should look at the database, and add numbers we have come across. (I have just added Legoland and Frizzell, and they both work if you are nice to whoever answers - if challenged (rare) I say that the other number is not working, or, this is the number I was given/was on the letter.

Laughable nonsense

I agree with you about the scam of charging higher rates for numbers that do not appear to be premium rate. Oftel or whatever they are now (Ofcom is it?) should be lobbied to do something about this.

However  I feel that the idea that non geographic numbers do in fact have a geographic location needs some qualification.
In some cases calling an 0845 / 0870 number will indeed take you to one location but in lots of cases this is simply not true. If a company has 5 call centres dotted around the country (or even the world!) then calls could be programmed to ring at a call centre in say Newcastle first on 0191 233 xxxx, if all the lines were busy or the call was not answered within a certain time the call can be presented to 0121 236 xxxx and so on. This means that it is much more likely your call will be answered in a shorter length of time than if you use the geographic numbers posted on this site. A big organisation such as the National rail enquiries can deal with the large number of calls they receive so much more effectivley by using a non geographic number and routing the calls to where they have the staff to answer them at the time be it in Newcastle, Cardiff, Mumbai or wherever.
They do of course receive a proportion of the call charge but hey, they have to pay the staff and it's costing you only a local call charge anyway.
I do not see the percieved problem with calling an 0845 number. Are you saying that these are not charged at a local call rate (other than from a mobile) ?

  It's great to find so many other people incensed by 0845 and 0870, etc, numbers.  Thought it was just me being a sad b*stard.

I have e-mailed BT Customer Service (an expression used loosely) several times, only to be told that they cannot treat me (a BT Together Option 3 customer) differently as it would be against their charter not to discriminate!!  Words fail me.

Here's what they actually wrote:

.....Unfortunately, as you are no doubt aware calls to 0870 and 0845 numbers do not qualify for calls at the BT Together call charge rate. This is explained in the BT Together leaflet included with recent telephone bills and on line at www.bt.com.

It is a condition of BT's Operating License that we publish and adhere to standard national charges for our services, and our license precludes us from showing undue preference or discrimination towards any particular customer or group of customers......

As I said, words fail me.

Sorry to preach/moan to the converted - but just what can we all do to help sort this out??

Barrie Trevena

Quote:

BT do not operate any 070 personal numbers!

These numbers are operated by different companies, the details are here. This list includes all numbers beginning 07. The names of operators running other numbers can be found here.

Quote:

I understand that 0990 is now 08705, similarly 0345 changed to 08457.

Regarding this matter, I sent the following letter to my MP (email) and await his response.  Perhaps if we all did something like this it might help.

I wish to bring to your attention the growing usage of these NGN's and their costliness to consumers.
BT are making people pay so much extra and it is a virtual monopoly the way they have set it up.  It allows businesses to take a cut of all their incoming calls, thus encouraging the use of 'multi-choice options' to keep customers on the line, making more money for them.  They are allowed to advertise these calls as 'Local' and 'National'- but these are not the same cost as local and National calls if they are taken by other carriers.
Because of the charge structure customers cannot have these calls included in any 'package' and so have to pay up to 15 times more for their calls than if they were able to use a 'cheap' call carrier.
But, by far the worst offender is our own Government, who now use 0845 numbers for their (our??) departments thus causing, for example, people on benefits to have to pay extortionate amounts when they need to make contact - the very people who are disadvantaged get proportionately hit worst!  Often these same people are also the ones who may not completely understand the cost implications of the confusing setup.
Please consider using your good offices to campaign against this iniquity, surely Government is supposed to be FOR the people.
Sincerely

I think we must agree to disagree, DaveM, as your statement about getting you through to the person quicker was hilarious!  Have you ever sat for 30 mins or more in a queue, paying 3/7 p a min for the privilege??  If not, you must be unique.
I would suspect from the tone of your argument some 'involvement' here - you see no problem in being unable to utilise low cost chargers.
The basic question is "Should companies be able to charge us 'Premium' (in all but name) rates for sitting listening to their musak"?
And, as for 'getting you to the right person quicker' - in my experience you just go through to the call centre operative, they are not 'specialised' within a Company (ever worked in one??).