This was my contribution to Ofcom's Consultation  -  084 and 087 non-geographical telephone numbers.  It will be interesting to see have good the new Ofcom is.

084/087 number are in the same 08 category as free (080) telephone numbers.  This leads to confusion, with many thinking that 084/087 numbers are also free. This confusion is not only in the minds of consumers, but is prevalent in the minds of personnel of the various companies who use 084/087  numbers.  When I complain about the use of 084/087 numbers, I am constantly been told that they are free.   084/087 numbers are never less expensive than geographical numbers and companies often receive a premium (revenue sharing) based on the length of call, these numbers should be placed in the 09 category.

All users of non-geographical telephone numbers should print the cost of the calls near the telephone number, together with the amount of  premium  they receive.  I feel that there is an element dishonesty in receiving money from a person making a telephone call without disclosing that fact. Revenue sharing removes any incentive to deal with calls quickly, and as companies receive more money the longer the call lasts, it is an incentive to keep customers on the line for as long as possible.

Public or semi-public organisations which have a monopoly on their services (eg the Land Registry, Passport Agency and DVLA) should not use non-geographical numbers unless they provide an alternative geographical number.

It is ironic that when BT and other telephone providers are offering various call options to reduce or eliminate the cost of calls, companies and organisations, encouraged by revenue sharing, are increasingly using non-geographical numbers which are excluded from all those options.  BT?s Option 1, which is now to be introduced for all customers as a minimum option package, removes the cost distinction between national and local calls, this cost distinction is being perpetuated by the use of so called, and misleadingly named, local and national rate non-geographical numbers. 

By the insidious and increasing use of revenue sharing customers are being locked into making expensive non-geographical calls.  The price of non-geographical call can never go below the revenue sharing element of the call.

K Kearney

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No, actually they are the SAME ! Can YOU tell me how much they get for an 0845 call ?

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See the query made above.

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Why ? Just for the likes of YOU & me on inclusive call plans ???

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But they ARE the same as Local and National rates ! And the rates are being changed to the same cost for both.  What more do you want - BLOOD 

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Lets get this right. are getting hammered and you don't think it's fair !! 

Time for more controversy in Hell's kitchen ! Follow this thread for more Telco revelations.

Now apart from the fact that Neil Thomas above got his knickers in a twist because he didn't quite understand the purpose of this site, his intentions were good, as he said.  The use of 0845 for many large companies also benefits the caller because with call management it can route calls to the least congested call centre, which means less time waiting (and paying!!) for us.
And don't accuse me of being a BT lover, 'cos I've had about 10 other Telco's over the years, and I'm with 4 different ones now for different reasons (BT - ISDN line rental, Onetel - Anytime & TotalUkTalk, 1899 - International, Tiscali - about to dump).  It's just that I've seen so much rubbish on these forums about 0845, that I'm afraid I had to put a few things straight here.  At the moment let's stick with JUST the BT rates.
The prices shown below are per minute and inclusive of VAT.

			.   Regional/
BT Standard rate	Local calls	0845	. National calls	0870
Weekend	1p	1p	.   1.49p	1.49p
Cheap	1p	1p	.   3.95p	3.95p
Standard	3.95p	3.95p	.   7.91p	7.91p

ANYONE can see that using is EXACTLY the SAME as a LOCAL call.   Agree ?
And that the is EXACTLY the same as the National/Regional call.
So that would seem to blow all of you out of the water that just say "they cost more" !!

I'm not talking about the inclusive plans, so lets stick to the Basic UK user, of which there is still quite a high proportion. I don't disagree about the moneymaking schemes of , and ; I hate them as well.

Now let's look at the BT Option 1 rates, from July 1st -

			.   Regional/
BT Option 1	Local calls	0845	. National calls	0870
Weekend	1p	1p	.   1p	1.49p
Cheap	1p	1p	.   1p	3.75p
Standard	3p	3p	.   3p	7.51p

It's CHEAPER for most but especially Regional & National calls; only the cheap/weekend local calls stay the same!!!

Can someone explain to me where the hell BT is making all this money on the 0845 numbers, 'cos it baffles the !! out of me !  Don't forget also, that these aren't taking into account the and discounts.

So for the MAJORITY of UK phone users on BT, using 0845 has been the CHEAPER option upto now.  Those that were on BT Option 1 before (myself included) will see NO difference in call costs but an increased line rental of £1 /month.  
Look at the Telcos list to compare them to the others.

Have a look at my 0845 and 0870 comparisons and give me some constructive feedback. I've only had Daniel and NonGeoMan with useful comments so far, so lets have some more.

I'm not disagreeing that 0845/0870 cost those of us on inclusive packages additional money, but contrary to overall opinion, they don't cost the standard user more! It's your choice not to use BT; it's a Free Country !!  

I thought we had got beyond the point of debating whether 0845/0870 numbers are an expensive rip-off and moved on towards discovering more creative ways of avoiding them.

After reading Dave M. I am not so sure.

So back to basics. In the days before competition, when phone calls were expensive, 0870 and 0845 started life as numbers where callers, wherever they were in the country, paid the same local or national rate for their call. There was no cost difference in calling national/0870 or local/0845.

Along came competition and national rates were forced down to levels below BT's standard rate. I now find it cheaper to use a third party to call next door rather than make a BT local rate call.

BT maintained their national and local rates at the old high tariff. 0870/0845 are linked to this tariff.

Clearly, BT lost traffic as informed customers migrated to cheaper carriers. Their marketing folk realised that it would be a struggle convincing customers to pay high standard rates in a competitive market.

These clever marketers came up with a wonderful idea! Why not approach high traffic generators, offer them an 0845/0870 number and a slice of the action. This was a win/win situation for all parties except the humble consumer.

The traffic generators though it was Christmas. Now they were getting money every time someone called them. If they gave bad service and kept people hanging on they got even more money. Best of all the consumer could not bypass the number and had to pay the high rate. Many consumers did not and still do not realise that this is the case.

BT got more revenue and fuelled the gravy train by excluding 0845/0870 from their discount schemes. Competition entered the 0870/0845 market and, while not making BT any happier, enabled traffic generators to shop around for an even bigger slice of the action. If anyone doubts that big money is being made from 0870/0845 just do a google search on both. It is almost a feeding frenzy there are so many suppliers.

While all this was going on Offcom/Offsted just sat back and watched it happen. The official line being that if a consumer did not like suppliers using 0870/0845 they could take their business elswhere. Maybe they could in some cases but...

Our leaders have insisted on outsourcing many public services to a variety of service companies. Almost without exception when this happens 0870/0845 would appear in place of the old geographic numbers. As Firestop points out, the consumer seeking to renew her passport has absolutely no choice.
I wonder how many government departments have a clawback on phone revenue generated under outsourcing contracts.

Now we have a state of affairs where it is increasingly difficult to find a sizeable consumer supplier or government department who does not use 0870/0845.

BOTTOM LINE. 0870/0845 numbers have one purpose! To make the consumer pay higher telephone charges. They are premium rate phone numbers and should be regulated by ICTIS. Ideally with 09 prefixes to ram home the fact.

So please, no more 0845 is cheaper postings.

Mr WEBMASTER.
What about a hall of fame for companies who make a point of not using 0870/0845.
My nomination for the first member  TRAILFINDERS

I totally agree !  But now show me a comparable supplier doing them cheaper.     I looked long & hard and couldn't find one that was worth it for anything else, & my rates are as low as any of them. They could be lower but then I've got rid of 90% of mine since finding this sites' database, and I'm finding more every day.

BTW, you could always opt for the potholes in the road caused by useless tw!ts that dug them up & buried cables, or get fried by the radio waves from unsightly phone/transmitter masts all around us. Better still, we could all have matching satellite dishes on our houses so we don't stand out. 

I have an inclusive 24/7 package with NTL .. but still have a call charge of around £10 per month for 0870s and 0845s.  Even without a call plan .. the national rates are 3p  2p    and 1p.   A hell of a lot less than I have to pay for those nasty 0870s and less than 0845s.
Surely, if consumers got together.. businesses using 0870s could be made to act with honour ... maybe!

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Crap.

If you wanted to save people money, you'd just give them an ordinary geographical number.
(you remember geographical numbers: they're the ones that begin with 01 and 02)

In what alternative universe do you live if you think 0845 are cheaper than 01/02 ?

Certainly many/most/all calling plans that give bundled/free/inclusive calls specifically
exclude 0870/0845 and the like, meaning that someone has to pay to call you where they
would otherwise get them included.

If there are still carriers out there who charge 0845 cheaper than 01/02, then you could
at least give the geog number as an alternative.

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There hasn't been any such thing as "local rate" for a good many years now. All geographical
numbers cost the same (for a given supplier).

therefore i am now passing on this websites details to my solicitors for legal action against this
website and any slanderous comments on 0845 numbers.

OK. See you in court then. Saying something that is true is not slander.

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You should go with a proper communications company then, a decent one that:
a) doesn't quote such meaningless terms as "local rate"
b) tells you the truth, that 0845 is almost premium rate in practice
c) offers you the option of a REAL geographic number