SAYNOTO0870.COM - Have BT redefined 0870 as Premium?

omy Full Member Offline I came - I saw - I went home. Posts: 129	Have BT redefined 0870 as Premium? Oct 1^st, 2004 at 12:50pm Just been on BT call charges site and see that they now quote call charges under a heading " 0845 and 0870 premium rate calls". So will they now have to comply with Premium Rate rules??
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Dave Global Moderator Offline Posts: 9,902 Yorkshire Gender:	Re: Have BT redefined 0870 as Premium? Reply #1 - Oct 1^st, 2004 at 4:45pm Hey what? Where? It must be April 1st! Is there a link or have they removed it as soon as they realised what they'd done?
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dorf

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Re: Have BT redefined 0870 as Premium?
Reply #2 - Oct 1^st, 2004 at 4:54pm

This is an interesting development. A BT spokesman was on BBC "Working Lunch" today and made the statement "0870 numbers are really like Premium numbers ......". At last they have admitted it. BT have never admitted this before. So why has Ofcom and Oftel before them allowed them to get away with this for so long, if they well knew that what we were claiming was true, when the new Telephone Numbering System originally allowed revenue-sharing on 09 numbers only? The last straw was of course removing the correlation between BT's National and Local rates with these abused numbers due to their gambit of forcing all of their line rental customers to Option 1; in a sense BT have become hoisted by their own petard!

It seems like at last some pressure is being put on BT. I don't think too many consumers would be too sad about this. The key to it all is queueing and call centres. Ofcom did actually admit in their outline for the last consultation that one option was to move all revenue-sharing numbers to the 09 series (which is where they should have been in the first place according to the new Telephone Numbering system - that was the whole point of moving all the various Premium numbers to 09). The principal reason that BT and other telcos did not want to move all revenue-sharing numbers there is because the big money is being made from queueing. Queueing is of course prohibited with 09 numbers, for the very reason that it was seen quite clearly that if queueing were allowed there would be an inevitable tendancy for operators to extrapolate queueing times (using every trick in the book) to make lots of money. Well of course that is exactly what they are doing with 0870, 0871, 0845 etc. numbers.

So BT are at last admitting that we are correct - these numbers are being used as covert Premium numbers with queueing, and this is a direct contravention of the new Telephone Numbering system which Ofcom have done nothing to correct!

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« Last Edit: Oct 1^st, 2004 at 4:55pm by dorf »

Ofcom are completely ineffectual

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Dave

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Re: Have BT redefined 0870 as Premium?
Reply #3 - Oct 1^st, 2004 at 5:48pm

We know that 0870 providers promote 0870 as costing no more than a normal national call. I wonder whether companies who have been sold these numbers have any legal come-back as that is incorrect. If consumers start to 'see' 0870 as a rip-off premium rate, maybe these companies have grounds for legal action against BT and other providers for misleading them and putting consumers off.

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« Last Edit: Oct 1^st, 2004 at 5:51pm by Dave »

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omy Full Member Offline I came - I saw - I went home. Posts: 129	Re: Have BT redefined 0870 as Premium? Reply #4 - Oct 1^st, 2004 at 5:59pm Just tried to return to get the link to the page and it is unavailable!! But I am not the only one to have actually seen it - so let's have a go at Ofcom etc.
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nicholas43

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Re: Have BT redefined 0870 as Premium?
Reply #5 - Oct 3^rd, 2004 at 4:03pm

It's there now. From the Search page, under "recommended links", UK call prices. Or Pricing|Residential|UK calls - general information|UK call prices.

It's a fine old muddle:

First the lies:

The price per minute varies depending on the time of day and destination of your call. Any call to a Freefone 0800 or 0808 number is free. BT customers' calls to Lo-call numbers from anywhere in the UK are charged at local rates, and NationalCall numbers are charged at national rates (different rates may apply from non- BT networks).

Then, on the very same web page, 3 cm down, amazingly, the truth:

Some BT call prices are related to the distance of the call, but others, such as those to mobile phones or information and premium rate services, are charged at the appropriate rate irrespective of the destination of the call.

Calls to 0845 and 0870 premium rate services are charged at the following rates, shown in pence per minute, ( inc. VAT )

[then a table showing 3p or 7.51 ppm etc]

nicholas43

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bgezine

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Re: Have BT redefined 0870 as Premium?
Reply #6 - Oct 3^rd, 2004 at 6:25pm

Here is the url for all the non-standard prices

http://www.bt.com/Pricing/pis_info.jsp?PRICE_OPTION=Residential/PIS_Specialised_...

I find the 0844 numbers most concerning - talk about confusion.

And, as for 0871 numbers starting at 3p and then all the way up to 10p.....

Wouldn't it be nice if we could know what the call will cost without having to look at the first 7 or 8 digits?

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Dave

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Re: Have BT redefined 0870 as Premium?
Reply #7 - Oct 3^rd, 2004 at 6:50pm

Quote:

I find the 0844 numbers most concerning - talk about confusion.

And, as for 0871 numbers starting at 3p and then all the way up to 10p.....

Wouldn't it be nice if we could know what the call will cost without having to look at the first 7 or 8 digits?

Why they have choosen to use 0844 and 0871 which are so close to 0845 and 0870 I haven't the faintest! I have raised this with Ofcom and got the nothing reply they give.

The issue of 0871 being 3p...8p, 9p or 10p/min might give people choice in Ofcom's cloud cookoo land. Roll Eyes

What company that chooses to use 0871 will charge 9p/min instead of 10p/min? Consumers aren't aware of all of these prices within 0871 and there is no pattern where a lower numbers cost less, therefore I bet most companies opt for 10p/min.

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hoxne

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Re: Have BT redefined 0870 as Premium?
Reply #8 - Oct 4^th, 2004 at 10:14am

Quote:

We know that 0870 providers promote 0870 as costing no more than a normal national call. I wonder whether companies who have been sold these numbers have any legal come-back as that is incorrect. If consumers start to 'see' 0870 as a rip-off premium rate, maybe these companies have grounds for legal action against BT and other providers for misleading them and putting consumers off.

Where the network operator has falsely told the company that their customers can ring them at national/local rate, this amounts to a misrepresentation. The company would be able to claim rescission of their contract and/or damages if they've been misled. An alternative claim may exist for breach of contract, although it may be difficult to quantify the company's losses. However, is the company likely to bring a claim and ditch the 0870 number when they're making money from the revenue share?

If the company advertises calls to their numbers as 'local/national' rate, then they may be breaking the law (Consumer Protection Act). The network provider could also be liable for the same criminal offence if the offence was caused by their provision of incorrect information.

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bgezine

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Re: Have BT redefined 0870 as Premium?
Reply #9 - Oct 10^th, 2004 at 1:42pm

I have just been updating one of my websites. There is something that everyone has missed in their arguements about local/national rates.

BT does still have local and national call rates. It is only customers on the BT Together packages that have a discount on these rates - this was BT's answer to confusing their customers about all the alternates out there who were offering savings.

Those on the Low User Scheme and the Business package, still have to pay the local and national rates for all their calls.

BT really is the master of confusion. So, no campaign against 0870 being national rate because there still is a national rate, regardless of what customers may have been led to believe by the advertising campaigns.

Is this clear? - as mud.

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Dave

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Re: Have BT redefined 0870 as Premium?
Reply #10 - Oct 10^th, 2004 at 4:04pm

Quote:

BT does still have local and national call rates. It is only customers on the BT Together packages that have a discount on these rates - this was BT's answer to confusing their customers about all the alternates out there who were offering savings.

"Discount" rates! LOL

Does BT have its own dictionary?

That's OK then. I'll stop using the internet, bin all mobiles in the house, disconnect one of the phone lines and then I can be charged "national rate" for all my national calls!

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sandco Newbie Offline Gov Dept. Number Guru Posts: 7	Re: Have BT redefined 0870 as Premium? Reply #11 - Oct 13^th, 2004 at 4:32am 09997 592.20p at all times!!!!! what the hell is this number for?
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dorf Supreme Member Offline I hate Qs on Premium NGNs Posts: 575 UK Gender:	Re: Have BT redefined 0870 as Premium? Reply #12 - Oct 13^th, 2004 at 9:19am Sorry Sandco, but have I missed something? From where did you get the prefix 09997, and from where did you get its charge rate?
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bgezine Newbie Offline Posts: 28 Gender:	Re: Have BT redefined 0870 as Premium? Reply #13 - Oct 14^th, 2004 at 11:11pm It is sitting there on BT's price list - someone must be using it. Else BT is hoping that someone will want to use it so that BT can make even more money from someone's advertising campaign. It is even more expensive than making a satillite call.
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Heinz Ex Member	Re: Have BT redefined 0870 as Premium? Reply #14 - Oct 15^th, 2004 at 7:58am Quote: 09997 592.20p at all times!!!!! And, to prove what a wonderful system the regulators have implemented in this country, the only other codes in the 0999 numbering range (099991 and 099992) are both Free to call!
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