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Radio 4 Report Part Deux (Read 11,231 times)
paraic
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Radio 4 Report Part Deux
Nov 26th, 2004 at 1:39pm
 
Hello,
First, a thank you for feedback on report.
Second, we're going to do a follow up and I'm looking for help. I want to focus on the companies that sell 0870 numbers and advertise their money making potential. I'm particularly interested in marketing info that used to make a big deal of this aspect of the no.s and has subsequently been pulled becasue of consumer pressure, as per some postings on this site.
Also, still trying to get concrete/insider info on how much companies are making on 0870 no.s.
My email is paraic.obrien@bbc.co.uk
Thank you
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robinp
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Re: Radio 4 Report Part Deux
Reply #1 - Nov 27th, 2004 at 9:41am
 
I would suggest you send personal messages to both Dave & DaveM on this site. They have the experience to provide you with the most detailed information that you need to get the ball rolling on this thread.
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robinp
 
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NonGeographicalMan
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Re: Radio 4 Report Part Deux
Reply #2 - Nov 27th, 2004 at 3:24pm
 
Paraic,

I hope that you will be focusing in particular on how the BBC was sold its 0870 numbers, most especially for the massive daily call volumes that occur to 0870 0100222, used for BBC Information's vast outsourced call factory with Capita in Belfast.  Also especially the fact that the BBC was one of the very first organisations in the UK to start using 0870 numbers in a big way and how exactly that came about (a comparison with the friendly old days of the BBC employees in the BBC Duty Office in London on a geographic phone number with the “modernised and streamlined” but seemingly uncaring outsourced 0870 Capita call factory workers in Belfast would also be good).

It would also be interesting if you could find out which members of the BBC management board are responsible for this issue and then to try to interview them on air about how they can possibly now justify still using an 0870 number rather than at least an 0845 number for BBC Information when 0870 is no longer (as of July 1st)the BT national daytime call rate for any standard BT customer.

Unfortunately a partially genuine defence to using 0870 numbers for a call centre like the BBC's is that you cannot get elaborate detailed information about the regional source of the calls or the call volumes and peak loads without using NTS but this does not justify using 0870 NTS instead of 0845 NTS or even 0800 NTS.

Also you should not only look at BT's own new standard daytime price for an ordinary national geographic (01 and 02 prefixed) call (3p per minute) compared to the 0870 price (7.5p) but also at the fact that with many rival companies, like www.call18866.co.uk, the price of ordinary geographic calls in the uk is now much cheaper still (1p for the whole call however long).  Yet mysteriously none of these companies like call18866 can offer anything better than the special high BT call rates for these non geographic 0870 and 0845 calls.  I would also suggest a visit to www.magsys.co.uk/telecom/residx.htm would provide rather useful further background on this issue.

The guy at Ofcom you interviewed, Matt Peaco-c-k, who I have since spoken to on the phone, has told me that Ofcom plans to name and shame people (like that doctor’s surgery ) out of using 0870 NTS numbers but this seems to me naive in the extreme when OFTEL (their predecessor) quite deliberately let the situation develop for 10 years (they even allowed BT to reclassify these numbers from the 09 premium price prefixed call rate code band to the 08 supposedly standard national rate call band) so that these numbers now constitute a huge proportion of day time customer calls to uk businesses.

They cannot now just close down 0870 and 0845 NTS numbers because big national organisations do find its other technical facilities, for instance to allow rerouting of calls to different call centres and to monitor the call loads at  peak times, advantageous for reasons that are absolutely nothing to do with making extra money.  However what is wrong is that these advanced high tech features of NTS were, in my opinion, tied in from the outset (10 or more years ago) with a secret money making plan by BT where NTS calls were also going to cost hugely more than all other calls by being excluded from Inclusive calling plans like BT Option 2 and 3 or TalkTalks (Car Phone Warehouse) Talk1, Talk 2 and Talk3 and even excluded from BT's modest Friends and Family and My Best Friend BT calling plan discounts.

You should really try and interview someone at BT about why Non Geographic NTS numbers are not allowed to be covered by BT Options 2 and 3 fixed price inclusive calling plans and also try interview someone from a discount call company, like Call18866, about why they cannot offer their usual bargain prices to these "standard BT local rate" and "standard BT National rate" code prefixes.  Also you could interview Easyjet to ask why they have recently moved their telephone bookings line from an 0870 to an 0871 number that costs 10p per minute at all times 7 days a week and yet this does not force them to publish the additional cost of these calls (even though it is 5 times the cost of 0870 calls at the weekend) in either promotional material or on their web sites.  Yet if they ran an 0906 number, subject to regulation by ICSTIS instead of by Ofcom, they would be forced to do this.

The solution, in my opinion, is not in fact forcing companies to publish the underlying real geographic phone number (much though I might personally wish that this was actually a viable option) because big nationwide firms do need to use the technology features of the NTS call routing system for other practical operational and non revenue making reasons.

So what Ofcom actually needs to do is to make regulations and/or to ask parliament to pass new legislation (whichever is required) saying that non geographic NTS numbers cannot be charged by your telephone service provider at a different calling rate from calls to any other normal local or national geographic (01 and 02) phone numbers.

I can't see the problem with Ofcom doing this and then if some companies still really want to scam their customers (or rather provide value added services as the telephone industry likes to call them) then let them set up an 0906 number and be subject to all of ICSTIS's very tight regulatory controls on how those numbers are used.
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« Last Edit: Nov 27th, 2004 at 3:27pm by N/A »  
 
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Dave
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Re: Radio 4 Report Part Deux
Reply #3 - Nov 27th, 2004 at 4:24pm
 
Hi Pariac

It's good to see that you're giving this scam some publicity.

I don't know which 0870 providers changed their [misleading] advertising. dorf mentioned that www.acommworld.com was one. jrawle posted a useful link on another thread, www.archive.org, which this is an archive of the internet. I've looked at Acommworld on there and it doesn't seem to reveal anything.

I have written to companies pointing out that the extra premium on top of the telephone is like subsidising their telephone system and reducing the true cost of operating across several locations. Whether it is or not, I don't know. I suppose it depends on how much revenue they receive. Typically companies justify 0870 usage because of services such as routing and statistics. I believe that there should be a non-geographical number range which is charged at geographical rates, being 'free' when on an inclusive call package. If companies have to pay more for them, so be it.

As for how much revenue they receive, none have mentioned that. A letter from CPP (www.cpp.co.uk) justifies their use by saying "From a cost perspective we do receive revenue from non-geographical numbers. Historically we have always used these numbers, and our policy premiums take running costs into account, such as telephone charges." If you wish to contact someone at CPP see here.

The DVLA seems to have a long menu, and can keep you on hold for quite a while. Have a look at the replies from DVLA thread.

I didn't see it myself, but they had a guy from BT on Working Lunch a while back who said that 0845/0870 were premium rate numbers. Maybe you could interview him. See here and here.
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Shiggaddi
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Re: Radio 4 Report Part Deux
Reply #4 - Nov 27th, 2004 at 6:15pm
 
The Easymoney.com credit card, charges a premium rate 090 number of 25p minute to their call centre!!  Although 0870 is considered the norm, there are very few companies that use 090 numbers as customer service.

So, not only are the subsidising the call centre, they are actually making a profit, since some of that 25p minute that some customers call with, complete the call with the telephone menu system.
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I realy hait itt wen peeple canot spel proply. Itt getts onn mye nervs sew mutch annd streses mee owt. Knot onley iz itt vary bade speling butt allso bade gramer.
 
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Re: Radio 4 Report Part Deux
Reply #5 - Nov 28th, 2004 at 12:31am
 
Hi Paraic,

If you have not yet looked at it you would also get a lot of useful background information about the whole thing on http://www.freeweb.telco4u.net/rachelf.
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kk
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Re: Radio 4 Report Part Deux
Reply #6 - Nov 28th, 2004 at 11:13pm
 
An excellent and detailed letter from Non Geographical Man.  Do not forget to send a complaint to Ofcom and a response to the two consultations now being undertaken.  It is good news that Paraic is intending to do a follow up on the previous program, it will help to remove the scourge of 0870 and 0871 numbers and consign them to oblivion or at least to the 09 premium category.
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KK
 
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NonGeographicalMan
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Re: Radio 4 Report Part Deux
Reply #7 - Nov 30th, 2004 at 12:29am
 
Quote:
 It is good news that Paraic is intending to do a follow up on the previous program, it will help to remove the scourge of 0870 and 0871 numbers and consign them to oblivion or at least to the 09 premium category.

The only way out of the whole mess in my opinion is for Ofcom regulation and/or new parliamentary legislation forbidding it costing any more to originate or terminate calls to 0870 and 0845 numbers than to the equivalent geographic local and national numbers with that telecoms supplier.

Then if some of the abusers really cannot survive without their current income stream then they can just set up 0906 numbers where they will have to properly publicise the calling cost and will be fined if they artificially try to create call queues or to put in excessively layered menu systems.

It is especially important above all that 0845 voice calls are reverted to costing no more than geographic local calls since most of the extra revenue received is going only to BT and the company terminating the calls and not to the actual people running the 0845 service in question.  The extra revenue is received due to both the higher price now charged for these calls, compared to geographic local rate calls, in the evening and at the weekend and due to 0845 calls being excluded from any of the so called all inclusive uk calling plans.

Obviously 0845 ISP numers would still need to be split out on to some quite separate access code and charging basis though as they never were meant to be local rate calls but just a way of paying your ISP without taking out a monthly subscription.
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Tanllan
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Re: Radio 4 Report Part Deux
Reply #8 - Nov 30th, 2004 at 8:27am
 
Quote:
The only way out of the whole mess in my opinion is for Ofcom regulation and/or new parliamentary legislation forbidding it costing any more to originate or terminate calls to 0870 and 0845 numbers than to the equivalent geographic local and national numbers with that telecoms supplier.


Exactly, which takes us back to the original concept behind 0345 and 0990 (now, 084 and 087) - and an open, clear and fair one at that. A little radical, but perhaps we could even extend your excellent suggestion to include bundled minutes in the mobiles.

Indian mobiles at 3c per minute anyone?
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reggie
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Re: Radio 4 Report Part Deux
Reply #9 - Nov 30th, 2004 at 9:44am
 
Perhaps it would be a good idea for Paraic to inform his colleagues on the today programme that to state that 0870 is a national rates number is misrepresentation.Both today and yesterday morning I heard this statement on the programmes in advertising a calendar which can be ordered using an 0870 number.How about starting a clean up operation within the BBC
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NonGeographicalMan
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Re: Radio 4 Report Part Deux
Reply #10 - Nov 30th, 2004 at 10:10am
 
Quote:
Perhaps it would be a good idea for Paraic to inform his colleagues on the today programme that to state that 0870 is a national rates number is misrepresentation.Both today and yesterday morning I heard this statement on the programmes in advertising a calendar which can be ordered using an 0870 number.


I suggest you make that point to Paraic directly in an email to paraic.obrien@bbc.co.uk

You could also make this point directly in an email to john.humphrys@bbc.co.uk;sarah.montague@bbc.co.uk;
james.naughtie@bbc.co.uk;carolyn.quinn@bbc.co.uk;
edward.stourton@bbc.co.uk;today@bbc.co.uk and the program editor kevin.marsh@bbc.co.uk

I suggest you draw their attention to www.saynoto0870.com to www.freeweb.telco4u.net/rachelf/how_it_works_and_history.htm and to www.ofcom.org.uk/consultations/current/NTSOptionsforthefuture/nts_future/nts_sum...

The more people email them the more they are likely to be embarassed into taking notice and/or even to not using the numbers or stating that they cost 7.5p per minute in the daytime.

For my own part I have already suggested that Paraic starts his investigation into how much money the 0870 operations are making from running these numbers at the door of the BBC.

Of course there is a danger that an edict from on high will suddenly come down from the BBC Director General, Mark Thompson, forbidding You and Yours from doing any further investigation into this matter.

We would then have to try and get the BBC's reticence to discuss their own abuses covered by a national newspaper or a commercial television station.
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« Last Edit: Nov 30th, 2004 at 10:20am by N/A »  
 
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