SAYNOTO0870.COM - NHS premium & national rate phone lines ban

mikeinnc

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Ofcom - quis custodiet
ipsos custodes?

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Re: NHS premium & national rate phone lines ba
Reply #165 - Apr 22^nd, 2005 at 8:03pm

On Today at 1:55pm dorf wrote:

Quote:

One of the reasons is that there are ex-BT people at senior levels within Ofcom who clearly still have some sort of continuing relationships with BT, and as a result Ofcom clearly fails to meet its responsibilities under the acts for an unbiased and neutral position of regulation

and NGN replied:

Quote:

Regarding Ofcom I get the distinct impression that Geoff Brighton, who is coordinating the work on NTS Options for the Future, could well be a former BT employee.

Here, I think, is the hub of the problem. If these people are ex-BT employees, (and like NGN, I expect most of them are) then they probably have managed to maintain their BT Pension plan. Understandably, they are not going to do absolutely anything which jeopardises that little pot of gold! It would appear that a bloated and monopolistic organisation like BT would disappear up it's own orifice if it wasn't for the revenue stream from NGN. If it did - goodbye pension!

In any other environment, such an obvious conflict of interest would be sufficient to contemplate criminal charges against the proponents. Unfortunately, the crooked and criminally irresponsible ex-BT managers who now inhabit the lofty portals of Ofcom will continue to take the attitude made famous in the movie.... "B***r you Jack, I'm alright".

Hey, but this is Rip-Off Britain, right? Wink

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dorf Supreme Member Offline I hate Qs on Premium NGNs Posts: 575 UK Gender:	Re: NHS premium & national rate phone lines ba Reply #166 - Apr 23^rd, 2005 at 3:12pm Absolutely right, Mikeinnc!
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lompos

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Re: NHS premium & national rate phone lines ba
Reply #167 - Apr 24^th, 2005 at 7:24am

Email received from Dept of Health:

Dear Mr xxx

In your letter, you raise several points about 0844 numbers. The
Government shares your concerns about the cost of these numbers. The
Office of Communications (OFCOM) is currently reviewing the use of
these numbers as part of a consultation on the future of all number
translation services. The result of the consultation will be published in the
summer and we will be considering what further action to take on the use of
0844 numbers in the light of this.

Yours sincerely
William Frost
Customer Service Centre
Department of Health

Reply sent:

Dear Mr Frost

Thank you for your email.

May I suggest that the issue is not to do with OFCOM or any particular telephone number.

The primary question for the Department of Health and the Government to consider and decide is whether GPs should be allowed to use any revenue generating telephone number at all, and thereby:

a) derive a profit, directly or indirectly, from NHS patients;

b) increase rather than reduce health inequalities in the country;

In my view this would be wrong and all GPs should use geographic telephone numbers. Furthermore, Part 18, Clause 483 of the Standard Medical Services Contract states that:

The Contractor shall not, either itself or through any other person, demand or accept from any patient of its a fee or other remuneration for its own or another’s benefit-

The use of revenue generating numbers is clearly contrary to this provision because it means the acceptance of a remuneration be it for the doctors’ or NEG’s benefit.

My MP, Mr Jeremy Corbyn (IslingtonNorth) wrote to me on 31 March with regard to a local GP surgery, the St Paul’s Road Medical Centre:

I agree with you it is obviously wrong to profit from patients. I am taking the matter up with the Practice and the PCT.

There is no technical reason for GPs to install revenue generating numbers, all facilities they need are available through geographic numbers.

I enclose for your information a comparison of actual call costs for 0870, 0844 and geographic numbers, from home and from payphones, and using different service providers.

http://uk.msnusers.com/Premiumratetelephonenumbers/shoebox.msnw?Page=1

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lompos Supreme Member Offline Posts: 791	Re: NHS premium & national rate phone lines ba Reply #168 - Apr 24^th, 2005 at 7:29am The note for the * in the table (previous posting) was accidentally left off. It reads: * 5p/min, as announced by NEG
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NonGeographicalMan

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Re: NHS premium & national rate phone lines ba
Reply #169 - Apr 24^th, 2005 at 8:28am

Quote:

The note for the * in the table (previous posting) was accidentally left off. It reads: * 5p/min, as announced by NEG

Well done on this Lompos although I wonder if you shouldn't have tried to keep the geographic and NGN call price comparison within the same table? May be just doing the comparison for BT Option 1, BT Option 3 and BT Payphones is enough given that the BT Option 3 result for greographic calls is 0p per minute at all times and BT Payphone to 0844 is a fortune at all times? But an additional table for weekend (Saturday morning) call costs to draw out the fact that NEG 0844s will be much more expensive than 0870 at that time would also be helpful?

But very well done on the doctors contract stuff. Do you work in the health service in some capacity?

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« Last Edit: Apr 24^th, 2005 at 8:29am by N/A »

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juby Full Member Offline Posts: 203 Gloucestershire Gender:	Re: NHS premium & national rate phone lines ba Reply #170 - Apr 24^th, 2005 at 11:34am Well done indeed. juby
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dorf Supreme Member Offline I hate Qs on Premium NGNs Posts: 575 UK Gender:	Re: NHS premium & national rate phone lines ba Reply #171 - Apr 24^th, 2005 at 2:44pm Yes some really excellent points, lompos. Very well done.
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Dave Global Moderator Offline Posts: 9,902 Yorkshire Gender:	Re: NHS premium & national rate phone lines ba Reply #172 - Apr 24^th, 2005 at 6:28pm And don't forget to mention about the abolition of BT Standard and the impact it has had on the whole 084/087 NGN fiasco.
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pud

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'National rate', 'Local rate' etc.
Reply #173 - Apr 25^th, 2005 at 9:09am

Sorry Dave but IMHO, THIS BBC NEWS LINK is more likely to be believed than the one you gave.

In fact, the two little greyed boxes on the right of the main text there are excellent summaries for anyone with little or no knowledge of the subject.

Quote:

New BT Together Option 1 charges

Line rental £10.50 per month
Evenings and weekends 5.5p for up to an hour per call, 1p per minute thereafter
Daytime 3p per minute, 5p minimum call charges apply
Source: BT (Standard rate customers are being migrated to Together Option 1)

Quote:

Standard rate charges

Line rental £9.50 per month
Weekday evening calls 3.9p per minute (national) 1p per minute (local)
Weekend calls 1.5p per minute (national) 1p per minute (local)
Daytime calls 7.91p per minute (national) 3.95p per minute (local)
Source: uSwitch

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NonGeographicalMan

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Re: NHS premium & national rate phone lines ba
Reply #174 - Apr 25^th, 2005 at 1:37pm

Quote:

And don't forget to mention about the abolition of BT Standard and the impact it has had on the whole 084/087 NGN fiasco.

Dave,

Surely this is more of a point to be made to those meekly kipping at Ofcom than to anybody in the Health Service.

The abolition of BT Standard per se mainly impacted on line rental costs by costing those of us routing most of our calls away from BT (apart from the £6 call allowance) another £9 per quarter.

The fact that this then highlighted the longstanding ripoff concerning 0845 and 0870 call charges, that had in fact been going on for 6 to 7 years, is surely slightly incidental, although it is most definitely a case of BT shooting itself in the foot big time.

I am a little concerned that you only seem to believe that 0845 and 0870 were a ripoff after July 1st 2004 when the reality is that a geographic weekday daytime national rate phone call had cost only a quarter of the price of an 0870 call for several years with the cheapest call providers and ditto a geographic weekday daytime local rate call had only cost half the price of an 0845 call for several years.

It would be quite wrong to let people like the doctors off with the excuse that 0845 and 0870 only became a ripoff on July 1st 2004 when as the Ofcom submission from Leicester Trading Standard shows the ripoff actually goes back very much further.

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dorf Supreme Member Offline I hate Qs on Premium NGNs Posts: 575 UK Gender:	Re: NHS premium & national rate phone lines ba Reply #175 - Apr 25^th, 2005 at 3:21pm You are of course correct NGM, but I feel you are being a bit hard on Dave. As far as I can see he did not actually claim that it had all started wef BT's abolition of their Standard Rate, he suggested that this had made the whole 084/087 fiasco worse?
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NonGeographicalMan

Ex Member

Re: NHS premium & national rate phone lines ba
Reply #176 - Apr 25^th, 2005 at 4:00pm

Quote:

You are of course correct NGM, but I feel you are being a bit hard on Dave.

As far as I can see he did not actually claim that it had all started wef BT's abolition of their Standard Rate, he suggested that this had made the whole 084/087 fiasco worse?

Dorf,

But one of the Dave's has stated previously that he only really became outraged about the cost of 0870 calls after the BT Standard Line Rental abolition last year when 0870 calls began to cost more than BT's charges for all other national geographic calls for 99.9% of their customers

This seemed to me odd given that the 0870 scam has been going on for at least 5 to 6 years and I have been fuming about it and complaining to the BT Chairman's Office for all of that time period.

But as I thought I was on my own then I lacked the heart to campaign at quite the level which I am now doing.

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Dave

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Re: NHS premium & national rate phone lines ba
Reply #177 - Apr 25^th, 2005 at 4:05pm

Quote:

Sorry Dave but IMHO, THIS BBC NEWS LINK is more likely to be believed than the one you gave.

What is your point? Are you saying that what is in that link I gave is wrong?

If you search for bt standard in Google, that thread comes up first! Someone must have been reading it!

Quote:

I am a little concerned that you only seem to believe that 0845 and 0870 were a ripoff after July 1st 2004 when the reality is that a geographic weekday daytime national rate phone call had cost only a quarter of the price of an 0870 call for several years with the cheapest call providers and ditto a geographic weekday daytime local rate call had only cost half the price of an 0845 call for several years.

I never said that.

My point: Oftel were happy to let 0845 and 0870 be called 'local' and 'national rate'. It appeared that the likes of the Advertising Standards Authority were happy with that. Now some nine million people have been forced off BT Standard, there is, in reality, no tariff which has these types of calls aligned with geographical calls. That is apart from the Light User Scheme and some other non-mainstream tariffs.

Thus, the reason that the misleading titles were allowed to be used (by Oftel/ASA) in the first place is now no longer.

Oh, and dorf, you are right! Wink

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kk

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Re: NHS premium & national rate phone lines ba
Reply #178 - Apr 25^th, 2005 at 8:20pm

An excellent post, lampos (see reply # 170). As you say, the primary responsibility is with the Department of Health and doctors surgeries, they should not try to shift the blame on others.

Re you first table (and apologies for being pedantic) Pay Phone charges should be rounded UP to the coin size- 10p.

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KK

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lompos

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Re: NHS premium & national rate phone lines ba
Reply #179 - Apr 25^th, 2005 at 8:55pm

Thanks for the correction kk.

It is not pedantic and if the table goes anywhere else I shall change it. As you say, the smallest coin accepted in BT payphones is 10p although there are some payphones which accept credit cards but these are the exception rather than the rule (also as far as I remember for credit card payments a minimum charge applies).

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