I think it's a little ironic that you're making money from Google AdWords selling the services of the very companies your so critical of.

0870 numbers provide major benefits to the customers of SMEs who make very little and often NO money from using them. Benefits which are never mentioned in this type of headline grabbing "Ripoff Britain" corporate bashing nonsense.

How? By allowing complex number translation from an 0870 number to a variety of terminating numbers depending on the time of day, which staff might be available to answer a call and so on, smaller companies are able to substantially improve the service they offer to their customers. Small business owners (particularly sole traders) may frequently be away from the office - the number routing permitted by 0870 number control panels goes way beyond what is on offer from BT call diversion.

Why should BT be the only company to profit from telephone call charges? If a very small charge (typically 1p per minute) on the standard national rate helps firms to respond more effectively to their customers, I'm sure customers will be more than happy to pay it.

If you seriously think that destroying customer loyalty by keeping somebody on hold just to make money out of them (at pennies per minute) is the intention of big businesses, I think you're very misguided.

The cost of customer acquisition for large companies often runs to hundreds (and even thousands) of pounds. Why would any company owner in his/her right mind risk losing a customer by keeping him/her on hold just to make a few pennies? Utter nonsense.

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This has been discussed over and over. Some threads which discuss this are Ethical?? and Gamekeeper turned poacher??. Have a look at the Site Related section.

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That is because it is difficult to explain, and the reason these numbers are so widespread. Even telling people that these numbers cost more to call than a normal (geographical) number gets a response like "and your point is...?"

But of course they're quick to believe the adverts put out by the telcos telling them they can save this and save that!

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...All at the direct expense of their customers. NTS is fine, but should be paid for by the receiving party.

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Why should we all pay more just to allow other providers to profit? Competition should not be at the expense of the consumer, which it is.

For a company to receive, typically 2p or 3p per minute (but can be up to around 4p per minute), the caller has to pay around 7.5p/min. Thus, they are a premium rate number and should be titled as such and prefixed with 09 to indicate this.

This also means that there is (in the daytime) 3.5p/min or more on top of what the company being called receives. This is higher than a normal geographical call and the price of this cannot fall due to competition. Therefore, they are stifling competition.

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The main issue is that these numbers force the calling customer to pay for the NTS, which the company being called should pay for. Call queuing is one aspect which some companies/organisations seem to be doing. Revenue sharing certainly doesn't give them an incentive to shorten calls.

Why do you assume I have an 0870 number and customers?

I just think there's value in considering both sides of the argument.

I remain unconvinced that any profit-driven company would be less inclined to reduce call queues for the call rebates they earn - unless of course their product price was lower than the pennies they'd earn from infuriating their customers. It doesn't make any commercial sense at all.

And however you look at it - the customer will ultimately pay for increased efficiency, whether that's through a cost passed on directly via the call charge or indirectly through a rise in the price of the product.

You can bet that if firms in any market are gaining competitive edge through improved call handling, competitors won't sit back and accept it.

I think your arguments are fundamentally flawed. I accept that there's an increased cost in calling an 0870 from a "national rate number".

To quote the Ofcom site: "Consumer concerns about the cost of calling voice services offered on 0845 and 0870 numbers. These services are often advertised as local or national rate calls respectively, but these descriptions have become a source of confusion as competitive services and tariffs have supplanted a single set of BT prices."

I agree that the term which historically was more appropriate is now a misnomer, but to tar every company with the same brush and accuse firms (which incidentally I'm not) of being underhand is wrong.

You'll be hard pushed to find any busy forum where the same topic isn't raised more than once. It's an indication that it's relevant and interesting (and usually there's a slightly different take each time).

Perhaps you should be as critical with everyone who's raised complaints about greedy companies' call queuing and request that they too only reply to the first contributor to raise this fallacious argument.

Many thanks however for validating the absurdity of call queuing for profit.

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Well I do, and if you like call me misguided, but there is evidence of that before your very ears!

If you get through to someone on a 01 or 02 number you get (more often than not) an instant real person.

If you have to dial 0870 you almost always get a recorded message containing advertising for that company, opening hours etc. then it starts on the "press one" nonsense.

In my experience the more "reputable" the company the longer their pre-amble.

Misguided?

FACT: calling at 0870 number costs the dialer between 8p and 10p per minute (during the working day) and sometimes even more. Some folks will pay these prices even at the weekend and in the evening.

I don't care if companies use these numbers... but why are they so reluctant to tell the consumer the TRUE cost? Why are they not happy to tell customers that these are in effect PREMIUM RATE numbers?

Because they know if the customer knew the TRUTH they may well turn to a company that has a normal phone line or a freephone 0800 number?

Why are 0800 freephone numbers such big business?? Why do so many of these wonderful corporations you love have freephone numbers so often for SALES enquiries?? This can only be saving the potential customer pennies.

They do it because it produces results - more sales calls. The customer CARES about the cost of their phone calls - even when it's just pennies.

If everything you say is true (especially the bit about the customer being "happy" to pay the extra cost of calls to 0870) then when hopefully the law is changed and companies are forced to advertise their 0870 numbers (many are sales numbers!!) as PREMIUM RATE - then we should see no change from the companies. ie: they will continue to use 0870 numbers happily.

Yeh! Right! Why would I want to PAY EXTRA to make a call to buy insurance; when I can call competitor for free?? 0870 numbers will start to disappear  - and this proves our point.

One question that needs to be asked - Why only in the UK? In the USA, just about every organisation - public and private - has a toll-free 1-800 number.

In Australia, it is 013 - a true, unmetered local call, anywhere in the country. Speak as long as you like for one local call fee.

And I can assure you, the level of customer service in both those countries is so far in front of the level you generally receive in the UK to make the comparison pathetic! I don't think "Rip-Off Britain" is so far from the mark!