I have received a reply to an e-mail I sent to a gentleman who works for a major charity, he is a senior official.

I commented on his 0870 number suitably, I mentioned that Ofcom had stated that this was a premium number in all but name............

This was his reply:

"Please see the BT phone book which, under the heading of” UK codes” clearly states that 0870 is a national rate number. This is also stated by Ofcom. As previously indicated, we do not benefit financially from any telephone calls received and I trust that this duly clarifies the situation for you."

Can you advise me how I should reply.

Hi Juby

Crus makes some good points.

Point out to him that 0870 numbers are “revenue sharing numbers”, if he is not making money out of using an 0870 number then why is he using one?  
Also: his telecom provider must be making money out of the charity,

Send them a copy of the COI revised guidelines.

Make a complaint to the Charities Commission, who also use 0870 numbers.

Ask about the Charities Commission’s own 0870 number under the Freedom of Information Act 2000.   What income they receive per minute call and in total?  What is the geographical number? Etc etc

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Juby,

You should have said you were a BT Option 3 customer and that any call to a number starting 01 or 02 costs you 0 pence for a 30 minute call but a 30 minute daytime call to an 0870 number would cost you £2.25  Therefore on that basis how can he claim these are national rate numbers treated the same way as other geographic national rate calls?  And I don't care if you are not actually a BT Option 3 customer - just imagine that you are for the purposes of this exercise.

It is such a cynical answer by this guy that he obviously knows perfectly well exactly what they are doing and is just looking to fall back on the usual lie to try and defend it.  The whole thing is built on a lie which is why it makes me so M A D!

Anyhow the man is clearly either lying or very out of date as unfortunately for him I have this very day received my brand new BT Phone Book number 530 for Guildford & West Surrey 2005/06.

This phonebook shows only a "UK Area Codes" section of codes starting 01 or 02 and does not include a listing for 0870 or 0845 within this section.

Instead 0870 and 0845 codes are listed under another separate heading entitled "special codes in the uk" where it is then stated that "some uk codes are not area codes.  They are used for mobile phone, pagers, personal numbers and premium-rate numbers".  So far as I can see the only one of these descriptions matched by 0845 and 0870 are premium-rate numbers since they are clearly not codes for mobile phones, pagers or personal numbers.  Although on that basis 0808 and 0808 are also "premium rate" according to the BT definition.

Curiously all 08 numbers are then described under a further heading of "08 Special-rate numbers" not mentioned in the rubric at the top of this section.

It is stated that 0844 numbers cost up to 5p per minute, 0845 up to 3.95p per minute (incorrect even though this is a March 2005 phonebook as they now cost no more than 3p) and 0870 up to 7.91p (again out of date).  0871 are correctly stated to cost up to 10p per minute.

It is strange that they should still bother to include this pricing information in an any case outdated call pricing information for "special codes" in the BT phonebook when all call pricing information for geographic "uk area codes" is now withheld because the price depends on which BT Option you belong to.  Except there are only three BT Options so how difficult could it have been for them to show these in the phonebook?

So basically your man at this "charity" is either deliberately lying (most likely in my opinion) or he is deliberately or accidentally using a very old and out of date phone book.

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The old BT standard prices are still correct for the light user scheme but almost no one is now on this scheme unless it is some remote country cottage that people only visit a few times a year.

The days when there were crusty old ladies who hardly ever picked up the phone are long gone and by being on the light user scheme you sacrifice the ability to route calls with anyone else.  I would estimate that no more than 0.1% of BT lines are now on the Light User Scheme.

As for businesses they have a variety of discount schemes that give them prices as low or better than BT Option 1 and none of them pay standard rate as far as I am aware.

So what I am looking at is the real world here and what is really going on in it rather than trying to give this bare faced corporate liar an excuse for trying to defend what he knows perfectly well is a scam costing those who call them a small fortune.

Exactly which side are you on jrawle?  It is time to stand up and be counted!

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Well I wouldn't be happy with this solution.  I will only be happy if revenue share and overcharging is abolised altogether on all 08 number ranges apart from 0800 and 0808 which can continue since as the called party pays they clearly have every possible incentive to try to get the best deal from their service provider.

All 080 numbers would then continue to be free and all 084 and 087 numbers would then be charged at the same prices as other BT geographic national rate calls starting 01 and 02 with your current telecoms call carrier.

By the way as part of these revisions I would also abolish the BT Light User scheme and the old BT National Rate and require BT to offer a drastically reduced line rental for CPS only line rental customers.

I would also force BT to sell wholesale line rental to other telcos at a vaguely sane price such as £15 per quarter.

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All the organisations who operate 0870 numbers have marketing directors who are basically dishonest and have lied not only to their own customers but to their own customer service staff, most of whom unfortunately don't appear to have the intellectucal capacity to do anything other than accept the company propaganda they are fed more or less morning, noon and night.

The whole 087x/084x thing is so disgraceful because it is built on a lie.  It is a lie of quite breathtaking proportions that has been so widely told that it has almost succeeded.  Why should one be surprised as many religions are built on lies and brainwashing of the same breathtaking proprortions and yet they have many, many followers.  It is only those of us who are free thinking enough to participate in the www.saynoto0870com web forum who do not believe the standard large company garbage we are fed about this issue morning, noon and night.

I find it utterly shocking that some members of this site are prepared to think solely within the unfair and quite iniquitous charging box that OFTEL originally allowed BT to set up for these calls rather than simply concentrating on what is fair and right for the consumer.

Of course most of these companies can cling to some small print in the BT terms and conditions that lets them carry on with their bare faced lies about their call charges but that does not make it any the more right fair, decent, ethical or honest than if what they were doing was actually outside the law.

I personally am quite convinced that if there were not laws against murder that there are plenty of corporates out there who would murder both their staff and their customers if and when it was profitable to do so.  To say that something is a business as an excuse for any manner of unethical behaviour is to me totally unacceptable.

Business only does a decent job if all businesses operate within very tight minimum human rights constraints regarding the way in which they can treat both their workers and their customers.  Unfettered business in the raw without any control is not a nice thing at all.  It means collapsing buildings and bridges, workers who die from industrial injuries and so on.

If the market was perfect then perhaps these things would not happen in a truly free market without regulation but as the market is not at all perfect and some companies are large obnoctious bullies with few ethical principles (BT is a case in point) they will only work well if they are properly regulated.  It is the fact that OFTEL and now Ofcom has not regulated BT properly that has led to virtually all of the current problems.

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Hi kk,

I agree with much of what you say but for BT Payphones the picture is much more complicated.

For BT Payphones there is no offpeak rate and only a peak rate but the peak rate for geographic calls (2p per minute subject to 30p minimum) is a sufficiently good one that no one complains in relation to the service provided.  It is a positive encouragement to use the boxes and put one's mobile phone on one side.

However the situation for non geographic calls at Payphones is now quite appalling as the lo-call 0845 code is not charged at any lower a price than 0870 and at the weekend 0845 is charged at a price 1000% higher than from a BT landline for an 0845 call.  0870 calls are charged over 600% higher than the comparable BT landline price for these calls at the weekend.  Yet in the week these multiples compared to the landline rate are only 270% for 0845 and less than 50% for 0870.  Where is the commercial logic or reason in that?  Why does BT Wholesale charge BT Payphone the same price for carrying calls 24/7 but not do the same with BT Retail.  Surely any premium at a payphone over landline prices should only be a proportionate increase that reflects maintenance and cash collection costs and the value of the land it occupies?

I agree with you about New Labour.  The adoption of 0870 and 0845 by government departments was clearly further New Labour stealth tax policy.  But now that they have been unmasked the propagandist arm of government, known as the COI, has recanted and is now trying to backpeddle its disciples (the other government departments) out of the mess that it has led them into.

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Yes I know that but it still works out pretty well compared to many Pay as You Go mobile who may charge 25p or 30p for the first 3 minutes each day before then dropping in price to 5p per minute.

So if I make a call from a payphone that only takes 1 minute I am no worse off than on my Vodafone pay as you go mobile and if the call takes 14 minutes I am far better off.

Conversely if I make a 15 minute call to a doctors surgery with an NEG switchboard from a payphone I am very badly off as it will cost me £2.05 compared to the 75p it would have cost me on a landline and the 1p it would have cost on a landline had it been a geographic number.

The point I was making is why are Payphones now cheaper per minute in the weekday daytime then BT Option 1 from a residential landline, provided your call is 15 minutes, but with non geographic numbers quite the opposite holds true.