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Sneaky National Rail Enquiries (Read 187,990 times)

wacs

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Re: Sneaky National Rail Enquiries
Reply #15 - Jul 3^rd, 2006 at 6:19pm

bbb_uk wrote on May 21^st, 2005 at 2:10pm:

I too also get told this number (0207 2785240) is for international calls as well and don't get an option to hold or speak to anyone else!

However, ringing the 0191 218 8004 is ok. I live in Liverpool!

UPDATE: Ringing from my o2 mobile (with or without the international dialling code +44), I can get through to the 0207 number without any problems. Just when ringing from our landline!! My number was withheld at all times whether from mobile or landline.

I don't have any problems with this number, but I use my (BT line) onetel override service (free geographical calls for me) and I think Onetel from what they told me years ago route the calls through all different providers - poss overseas (don't know how this works)- which may account for not having any problems getting through. So another solution is, if you have onetel - use onetel automatic override service, or the 'onetel phone pal' would probably work as well (do they still do them?)

« Last Edit: Jul 3^rd, 2006 at 6:21pm by wacs »

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colin37400

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Re: National Rail Enquiries
Reply #16 - Dec 23^rd, 2006 at 10:25pm

Recently I found that the 0191 number no longer works. I have therefore been emailing National Rail Enquiries ... abridged correspondence is below for anyone interested:

***
me:
Until recently I was able to call rail enquiries on an 0191 number. (Although I don't think this was ever advertised). This was useful for calling from a mobile phone, as 0845 numbers are not included in the "free" minutes which are included in most peoples phone tarifs. Calling the 0845 number becomes expensive from a mobile phone, especially if one is on hold for a while before the call is actually answered. Why do you not have a number mobile users can call within their "free" minutes?

NRE:
Thank you for your eMail.
The only number that is available is the 08457 48 49 50 number, with a separate from for calling from abroad.
We will pass on your comments to the relevant team for consideration in the future.
Once again thank you for your eMail.

me:
Thank you for your prompt reply but it does not answer my query about why the situation is as it is.
Are you able to explain why the 0191 number previously available can no longer be used?
Also, I would appreciate a response to my comments from "the relevant team" so that I can be confident that they have been taken seriously.

NRE:
Once again thank you for your eMail.
We have had now confirmation that the 0845 number will be the only number for the forseable future, and that they are not considering altering it as the 0845 number is only a local rate call.
Once again thank you for your eMail.

me:
Your explanation that "they are not considering altering it as the 0845 number is only a local rate call" is not satisfactory because (as stated in my original email):
- The 0845 number may be a local rate call from landlines but from mobiles it is expensive. This is because it is excluded from the numbers which can be called using the inclusive minutes which are part of nearly all mobile phone contracts.
- If an alternative standard (ie geographical) number were provided, this could be used by people calling from mobiles. This option is provided by other helpline/customer service operators.
- The issue of making it easy to call from a mobile is an important one because most frequently it is when one is out and about that it is useful to be able to check train times.
- Until recently an 0191 number was available. You have not explained why this no longer works.
- I don't see why it should be difficult or expensive to simply provide an alternative number which would then connect through to the main one.
Could you please respond to these points.

NRE:
Once again thank you for your eMail.
We do apologise for any inconvenience that may have been caused.
Unfortunately as previously advised the 0845 number is the only one available, we have no plans to include another number for mobile users.
The 0191 number you refer to was to a Customer Relations Department who answered queries for you, this has now been withdrawn.
You can of course access our Online Journey Planner on our website, where you can obtain the information the same as by calling us.
Once again thank you for your eMail.

me:
I would be grateful if you could actually answer my queries, instead of sending me stock replies.
- "Unfortunately as previously advised the 0845 number is the only one available, we have no plans to include another number for mobile users." - you've already told me this; my question was why you have no plans to include another number, given the points that I made in my last email.
- "The 0191 number you refer to was to a Customer Relations Department who answered queries for you," - no, it was this number: 0191 2188004 and it took me through to a customer adviser just like the 0845 number does.
- "this has now been withdrawn" - why?
- "You can of course access our Online Journey Planner on our website, where you can obtain the information the same as by calling us." - no, I can't if I'm standing in the street or on a station platform, which is when I would be calling from a mobile.

NRE:
Thank you for your eMail.
The 0845 number is charged at your operators Lo-Call rate.
This charge is set by your mobile operator and you should contact them regarding the cost of calls.
The 0845 number is well known and advertised. Other services for mobile users are now available.
TrainTracker Text will give information on direct services.
Journey information from the Journey Planner can be sent as a text message to your mobile phone.
A WAP service is also available to mobile users.
The 0191 number was a back-door access into our Newcastle call centre and this has been closed. This number was never made available to the public.
Once again, we thank you for your eMail.

(continued in my next post)

« Last Edit: Dec 23^rd, 2006 at 10:39pm by colin37400 »

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colin37400

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Re: National Rail Enquiries
Reply #17 - Dec 23^rd, 2006 at 10:35pm

A continuation of my correspondence with National Rail Enquiries from my previous post:

NRE:
Thank you for your eMail.
The 0845 number is charged at your operators Lo-Call rate.
This charge is set by your mobile operator and you should contact them regarding the cost of calls.
The 0845 number is well known and advertised. Other services for mobile users are now available.TrainTracker Text will give information on direct services.
Journey information from the Journey Planner can be sent as a text message to your mobile phone.A WAP service is also available to mobile users.The 0191 number was a back-door access into our Newcastle call centre and this has been closed. This number was never made available to the public.
Once again, we thank you for your eMail.

me:
I'm sorry but I do not feel that this is a satisfactory response.
My main question is why you do not provide an alternative to the 0845 number.
Yes, the charge is set by my mobile operator, and it is higher than that for a standard geographical number. This is true for all mobile operators, as far as I am aware. The point is that you are aware that this charge is higher but you are not willing to provide an alternative, for reasons which you seem reluctant to disclose.
I originally found the 0191 number on this website: www.saynoto0870.com. You will see from the number of users of this website that I am not alone in being frustrated by the use of non-geoographical numbers.
The 0191 worked fine but it seems you have proactively shut it down, again for reasons you seem unwilling to disclose.
There is also an 020 number for callers from abroad but it seems I am actively blocked from using this too. Why?
The other mobile services you mention are not equivalent to the telephone enquiry service, particularly when a complicated journey is involved, and they are all chargeable.
Once again my main question is why you do not provide an alternative to the 0845 number. Is there a technical or financial difficulty in doing so? Do mobile calls to the 0845 number generate revenue for you?
I intend to refer this matter on to Passenger Focus if I do not recieve a proper response.

NRE:
Thank you for your eMail.
Please accept my sincere apologies for any incorrect information you feel you have received and for any inconvenience caused.
To address the issues you have raised you will need to contact National Rail Enquiries Customer Relations. I have taken the liberty of forwarding your details direct to them, and requested they contact you with a more specific response.

Next I recieve the following email from NRE Customer relations:

Re: Your complaint/comments involving National Rail Enquiries
Thank you for your eMail, the details of which have been passed for my attention by our Online Team.
Having fully reviewed your correspondence I feel I can only reiterate the points raised by our Online Team.
During the privatisation of National Rail Enquiries we received a high volume of feedback from customers saying that they would like one central number to call. From this feedback National Rail Enquiries came up with the low-call number 08457 48 49 50.
National Rail Enquiries have no intention of changing the 0845 number, as this is one central non-geographical number that covers four different locations internationally. It is however charged at a low call rate.
The 0191 telephone number should never have been made available to the public and has now been withdrawn. The 020 number you are referring to is for international callers only and only accepts calls from outside the UK.
If you are not happy with the cost of calling our service you will need to contact your service provider who may be able to change your tariff to include non-geographical numbers.
National Rail Enquiries are constantly striving to provide an efficient information service and I would like to thank you for bringing this matter to our attention. I am sorry I can not be of any further assistance and I trust we will serve you well in the future.

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colin37400

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Re: National Rail Enquiries
Reply #18 - Dec 23^rd, 2006 at 10:37pm

(carrying on from my previous two posts)

here is my latest email to National Rail Enquiries. I don't expect to hear back for a while due to christmas holidays etc but when I do, I'll post their response, if anyone's interested:

*************

Thank you for getting back to me.

However, as you say you merely reiterate the points made by your "online team", and do not provide a satisfactory explanation as to why an alternative, standard 01- or 02- number cannot be provided.

I understand your reasons for wanting to have one centralised number that is easy for people to remember, and do not doubt that you recieved positive feedback from users when this was originally suggested, presumably some years ago.

You describe the 0845 number as "low-call", but the simple point I am trying to make is that for many people, an 01- or 02- number is significantly cheaper to call than an 0845 number. These people include the vast majority of mobile phone users, as well as those who use companies other than BT for their home phone lines. Ten minutes of research on the internet will demonstrate to you that this is an issue that frustrates many people.

I feel that, if your role is to provide rail information to the public, it should be your duty to take into account the needs of all of your users (ie. not just those calling from BT landlines) by providing them with a cost effective way of obtaining this information.

It may be that when the service was originally set up, an 0845 number provided this, because the majority of calls were made from BT landlines but this is no longer true.

You seem to suggest that I should be contacting my phone service provider to try and somehow persuade them to change their tariff. This does not seem reasonable. It is their right to charge me the rates they set out in their terms which I agreed to when I signed a contract with them. My service provider is not unusual in charging more for non-geographical numbers. By implication, you are suggesting that a large proportion of your customers should be complaining to their phone service providers that calling your number costs too much. Why should it be their problem that you have chosen to offer an expensive number, and deliberately bar usage of a cheaper alternative?

My suggestion is that you could provide an alternative, 01- or 02- number that would connect through to the same system as the 0845 number. This seems to me a very simple thing to do; indeed, certain other companies already provide this option.

You have failed to give any reason why this cannot be done. I do not understand why you seem so unwilling to consider this, especially given the fact that there is already an 020 number for international callers. If I am mistaken in thinking that this is not a complicated or expensive thing to do, then please explain to me why.

If you can not provide me with a proper response then I will take this issue up with Passenger Focus.

Thank you for your time.

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Dave

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Re: National Rail Enquiries
Reply #19 - Dec 24^th, 2006 at 8:06pm

colin37400 wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2006 at 10:37pm:

You describe the 0845 number as "low-call", but the simple point I am trying to make is that for many people, an 01- or 02- number is significantly cheaper to call than an 0845 number. These people include the vast majority of mobile phone users, as well as those who use companies other than BT for their home phone lines. Ten minutes of research on the internet will demonstrate to you that this is an issue that frustrates many people.

You must be applauded for replying back to these people. I must point out the above error in your reply which implies that BT subscribers are charged the "local rate" for 0845 numbers. This is not the case for the majority who are now on BT Together Option 1.

The only BT packages where rates are linked are so-called non-discounted ones. This included BT Standard and Light User Scheme, amongst others. In July 2004 BT scrapped BT Standard and forced some nine-million on it onto BT Together Option 1. Calls to 0845 numbers cost 3p/min in the daytime, 1p/min in the evening and 0.5p/min during the weekend on all BT Together Options. Compare that to a 01/02 number on Option 1: daytime: 3p/min evening & weekend 5.5p for upto 1 hour.

Have a read of some of threads on here. Wink

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NGMsGhost

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Re: National Rail Enquiries
Reply #20 - Dec 25^th, 2006 at 7:24pm

colin37400 wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2006 at 10:37pm:

Suggest that to get anywhere you need to write to George Muir (george.muir@atoc.org), Director General of ATOC (who run National Rail enquiries), directing him to the three ASA (Advertising Stanards Authority) guidances indicating that 0845 calls are not Local Rate/Lo-Call and to trading standards opinions on this matter that have previously been given.

See www.atoc-comms.org/bios.asp for more information on Mr Muir. You also ought to copy in the CEO of your own local train operating company and your Member of Parliament (see www.writetothem.com) as only MPs can force the imbeciles at Ofcom to regulate to make it a serious offence punishable by a large fine to go on claiming that 0845 is Lo-Call/Local Rate.

You might also like to refer to ATOC's current infringement of the EU Misleading Advertising Directive and possibly refer the matter to your MEP via www.writetothem.com

You could ask your MP to refer Ofcom's failure to take action to stop continued lieing that 0845 is Lo-Call/Local Rate to the Parliamentary Ombudsman for further investigation as Ofcom are accountable only to Parliament for their actions.

« Last Edit: Dec 25^th, 2006 at 7:25pm by NGMsGhost »

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colin37400

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Re: Sneaky National Rail Enquiries
Reply #21 - Dec 30^th, 2006 at 6:47pm

Thanks for the various comments. I note the point that this issue affects some BT users as well.

Below is the fairly pathetic response from NRE, implying that they just can't be bothered to even give me any reasons for their decision, let alone consider doing anything about it. So I will pass the matter on to Passenger Focus, and may write to the head of ATOC and others depending on the response. I'll post replies here.

From NRE:

Re: Your complaint/comments involving National Rail Enquiries
Thank you for your response.
I am sorry to hear that you found my response unsatisfactory and you feel this matter is still unresolved.
As your complaint can not be resolved I feel the only way forward would be to contact Passenger Focus. Should you decide to contact them their details are:
Passenger Focus
Freepost WA1521
Warrington
WA4 6GP
Telephone: 08453 022 022
hello@passengerfocus.org.uk
National Rail Enquiries are constantly striving to provide an efficient information service and I trust that we will serve you well in the future.
Yours Sincerely
Bev Coleman
Customer Relations
National Rail Enquiries

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IAVOID0870

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Re: Sneaky National Rail Enquiries
Reply #22 - Jan 1^st, 2007 at 12:47am

Happy New Year People......

Sorry to interupt your letters / replies but I have just found this page below and not sure of it is of any use (or indeed still in date), but I post the link for others to use / see / try.....

I found it on:

http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/cgi-bin/viewnews.cgi?newsid1154104247,31062,

and it reads:

The easiest way to do this is by getting a Timetable online or simply calling National Rail Enquiries on 01912 188 004.

colin37400 wrote on Jan 1^st, 2007 at 12:58pm:

Yes, that 0191 number used to work, but has recently been closed down, as you'll see from reading previous messages in this thread. That's what initially prompted my writing to NRE.

Yeah, sorry - Just noticed that ! Embarrassed

« Last Edit: Jan 1^st, 2007 at 11:38pm by IAVOID0870 »

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colin37400 Newbie Offline Posts: 10	Re: Sneaky National Rail Enquiries Reply #23 - Jan 1^st, 2007 at 12:58pm Yes, that 0191 number used to work, but has recently been closed down, as you'll see from reading previous messages in this thread. That's what initially prompted my writing to NRE.
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David0845 Newbie Offline Posts: 1	Re: Sneaky National Rail Enquiries Reply #24 - Jan 3^rd, 2007 at 2:02pm Having arrived at this thread after finding the 0191 number no longer works, I have emailed Nat Rail Enqs but expect only the same robotic response. This looks to me like something a few newspapers would be interested in... David
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colin37400

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Re: Sneaky National Rail Enquiries
Reply #25 - Jan 3^rd, 2007 at 4:49pm

I'd encourage anyone who's arrived at this thread in frustration at being barred from the 0191 / 020 numbers to email National Rail Enquiries.

You can do it easily from their website here:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/feedback/index.html?a=displayFeedbackForm&category...

The more complaints they get, thet more likely they are to start taking it seriously.

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NGMsGhost

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Re: Sneaky National Rail Enquiries
Reply #26 - Jan 3^rd, 2007 at 6:54pm

David0845 wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2007 at 2:02pm:

This looks to me like something a few newspapers would be interested in...

David

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IAVOID0870

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Re: Sneaky National Rail Enquiries
Reply #27 - Jan 4^th, 2007 at 12:46am

It wont achieve anything, but hey! Another complaint registered !

FEEDBACK CONFIRMATION
Thank you for your email. The information you provided was submitted as follows:

From: N/A N/A

Subject: I have a complaint about: Other

From: N/A N/A at 04/01/2007 00:42:05

Have you seen the www.saynoto0870.com website ? if so, why are you insistent in using a RIP OFF number 0845 ? It is about time you provided an alternative GEOGRAPHICAL NUMBER for people to call you on, instead of using a NON GEOGRAPHICAL NUMBER of which is not included in most (if not all) peoples call plans provided and paid for, so why should we PAY EVEN MORE JUST TO CALL YOU CLOWNS? NO, D1CK TURPIN HIGHWAY ROBBERS are the best words for you. In case you are not sure, Im not happy by being ripped off......

The email address used was: <<DELETED>> . If necessary replies will be sent to this address.

We endeavour to respond to all queries within 24 hours. Your email address will not be used for any purpose other than acknowledging your feedback and sending you a further reply if required.

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James0870

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Re: Sneaky National Rail Enquiries
Reply #28 - Jan 4^th, 2007 at 2:27pm

So, I'd got very used to the 0191 number, and have been dismayed by its withdrawal. I sent a polite complaint this morning:

Dear National Rail Enquiries,

I am unhappy at having to use your 0845 number to receive information about
railway timetables. Please could you supply me with your geographical number
that I could use as an alternative,

Many thanks,

XXXXX

I got a very prompt reply back a few hours later:

Dear XXXX

Thank you for your eMail.

We have no geographical number you can use, the only number is the 08457 48 49
50 a local rate number, or the new text service.

As an alternative you can always send us and eMail, and we will be happy to
answer your queries.

Once again thank you for your eMail.

Regards,

Customer Services Team
National Rail Enquiries Online

I am working on a reply, will keep you all posted,

James

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Keith

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Re: Sneaky National Rail Enquiries
Reply #29 - Jan 4^th, 2007 at 2:41pm

Here are my communications with them in REVERSE chronological order (read from end!). I await their next reply. This has been going on now for sometime now.
_______________

Dear

Thank you for your eMail.

Please accept my sincere apologies for any inconvenience caused.

As you do not seem to be be able to get a response from the Association of Train
Operating Companies on this matter, we have passed your details on to National
Rail Enquiries Customer Relations and requested they contact you with a more
specific response.

Should you need to contact them, their details are:

National Rail Enquiries
Selectapost 31
Rotherham
S97 3ZX

Telephone: 0870 243 3335

Email: nationalrailenquiriescustomerrelations@ventura-uk.com

I trust you will receive a satisfactory response in due course.

Regards,

Customer Services Team
National Rail Enquiries Online
___________________________________

Yes but for this specific issue it directs me back to you. You send me to them, they
send me to you!

Can I escalate this please?

Thanks Keith.

________________________________________

>Dear
>
>Thank you for your eMail.
>
>The contact us section of the Association of Train Operating Companies
>website contains a number of contacts not just for us.
>
>The address you need to send to is enquiry@atoc.org
>
>We trust that this information is of help to you.
>
>Regards,
>
>Customer Services Team
>National Rail Enquiries Online
___________________________________
>
>Thank you.
>
>I went to the web site you gave me and it directs me back to you. It
>specifically says for comments and complaints complete the form on your
>web site (they give a link to it) or email you at your email address
>(which they also give).
>
>Now what do I do?
>
>Keith.
__________________________________
>
>>Dear
>>
>>Thank you for your eMail.
>>
>>Contact details for the Association of Train Operating Companies can be
>>found on their own website at www.atoc.org in their contact us section.
>>
>>We trust that this information is of use to you.
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>Customer Services Team
>>National Rail Enquiries Online
____________________________________________

>>Thank you for your reply it is appreciated.
>>
>>Can you put me in contact with them please as this is bizarre. I would
>>like to escalate this with someone in senior management as this is such
>>bad customer relations.
>>
>>To the best of my knowledge you are the only organisation that does
>>this.
>>
>>Why on earth did you spend time and resources to block and therefore
>>disadvantage your customers and cost them extra money and for which
>>there is absolutely no benefit to yourselves. It is a bit like running
>>trains with no doors! As I said no other organisation I know does this.
>>
>>This would seem to be a perverse thing to do.
>>
>>Since sending this email I did a search on the internet and found I'm
>>not the only one complaining about this. This is featured on Martin
>>Lewis's web site www.moneysavingexpert.com. Martin is a very influential
>>campaigner appearing on many news and business programmes. I also found
>>that there is a whole thread on this on saynoto0870.com and the comments
>>about this service there are very damning.
>>
>>Do you really want this sort of publicity, especially when it is
>>completely unnecessary and surely can't involve any cost to you.
>>
>>Regards Keith.
>>
_______________________________________
>>
>>>Dear ,
>>>
>>>Thank you for your eMail.
>>>
>>>National Rail Enquiries is a service operated on behalf on the
>>>Association Of Train Operating Companies and decisions on the telephone
>>>services and the numbers they are provided on are their responsibility.
>>>
>>>They have no plans to unblock the international number or provide any
>>>geographic numbers.
>>>
>>>Again we thank you for your eMail.
>>>
>>>Regards,
>>>
>>>Customer Services Team
>>>National Rail Enquiries Online
__________________________________

>>>Thank you for your reply. I appreciate the reply but you haven't
>>>answered my question.
>>>
>>>I did put a little time into asking the question so if possible it would
>>>be appreciated if you could spend a little time in answering the
>>>question. It would be appreciated as it is a reasonable question and a
>>>request that all other organisation I am aware of do offer.

>>>It would save me money as it would many many thousands of others and it
>>>would be at no cost to yourself and it is what most other organisations
>>>do. As I said in the original email I know of no other organisation who
>>>blocks the use of the International number.
>>>
>>>Please find the time to make a considered response.
>>>
>>>Thank you, Keith.
________________________________________

>>>>Dear ,
>>>>
>>>>Thank you for your eMail.
>>>>
>>>>We are sorry for any inconvenience that may have been caused.
>>>>
>>>>The number +44(0)20 7278 5240 is only available for calls from
>>>>outside the UK.
>>>>
>>>>National Rail Enquiries only has one number 08457 48 49 50 which is
>>>>available 24 hours a day for callers to make an enquiry.

>>>>Once again we thank you for your eMail.
>>>>
>>>>Regards,
>>>>
>>>>Customer Services Team
>>>>National Rail Enquiries Online
__________

CONTINUED:

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