Contiuned from previous post:

I wanted to call re a train enquiry but noted the numbers were 0845
>>>>numbers. As I have an inclusive call package with BT these are
>>>>expensive calls for me and effectively mean I pay for the call twice.
>>>>It is normal practise for organisations to provide a geographic number
>>>>for overseas calls which I was pleased to see you do and it is is
>>>>normal practise for people on inclusive plans to use these numbers if
>>>>an alternative geographic number is not given so as to avoid the double
>>>>charge.
>>>>
>>>>I tried your number for overseas calls and it was blocked. Why would
>>>>you do this? I do not know of any other organisation that does so and I
>>>>can't think of any rationale for doing so.
>>>>
>>>>This is frustrating as an 0845 number is no longer a 'Local' call these
>>>>having been replaced 2 years ago so for everyone the call costs at
>>>>least as much as a call to anywhere in the UK and for the large number
>>>>of people on inclusive plans like myself they are extremely bad value
>>>>as I should be able to make such a call free having paid a premium
>>>>already to do so. In fact I can call the USA and Australia for less!
>>>>
>>>>Can this block be taken off the International number please as it can
>>>>not benefit anyone by it being there.
>>>>
>>>>Many Thanks Keith.

NGMsGhost: Thanks. I normally do escalate to the top and will do so. The reason I didn't go to ATOC was that their web site specifically said they were not responsible for this.

One has to go thru' CS to start with as an escalation isn't fair. However I do despair as to how now a days questions are often just completely ignored. In other words the service is ABSOLUTELY NIL!

NGMsGhost wrote on Jan 4^th, 2007 at 3:49pm:


Point taken and essentially I agree, but as a general principle, it's a bit unfair to bombard board members etc. with emails without first trying the official route (as, indeed, you did by calling the info centre first).

Also, I think that an email or letter to a director will have a bit more impact if it's backed up with a chain of unsatisfactory responses from the relevant "customer services" departments or whatever. This lets them see that:
1. You're serious about resolving the issue,
2. You have tried the official route so aren't pestering them uneccessarily,
3. Their customer services are hopeless,
4. You're probably getting a bit p***ed off by the amount of time you've wasted so far.
I would imagine these factors would combine to make a productive response more likely.

That said I will certainly be emailing George Muir as you suggest, if it seems that taking the matter up with Passenger Focus isn't getting anywhere.

In the meantime I'm glad to see that a few others have registered their dissatisfaction with NRE... the more the merrier ...

Hutch wrote on Jan 8^th, 2007 at 7:01pm:


Its not the fault of this site its because nasty ATOC (Association of Train Operating Companies) who run National Rail enquiries have allowed the 0191 number to be closed down.

Email the CEO of ATOC to express your displeasure on this matter - george.muir@atoc.org

I rec'd the following email following the previous fruitless attemps at a sensible response. I have to say that although I didn't get the answers I wanted to hear at least (much to my surprise) the points in my email were actually read and responded to intelligently. Here is the first response. In the next post is my reply and the third post the reply to that. I haven't responded to that email yet.


Dear Keith

I've been asked to look at an email conversation that has been taking place
between you and our Online Team.

It appears that there is some confusion within our Online Team about how
comments of this nature should be dealt with - they should be forwarded on your
behalf to our Customer Relations team. I'm sorry that this wasn't done, and can
appreciate how frustrating this must have been to you. I will ensure that this is fed back to our contact centre management team. However, I hope that I can address the concerns that you've raised:

We are regulated by the Department for Transport (DfT). They require us to offer a local rate telephone number for everyone in the UK. BT's 0845 numbers are the only way that we can offer this fixed local cost to everyone across the UK. These
numbers are not associated with a particular location in the country, and so
therefore are have a fixed cost to the caller that is not distance-dependant. In
addition, 0845 numbers provide us with the ability to route our calls more flexibly.
 
Messages about service disruption can also be played to callers before connecting
them to our advisers, which reduces queuing time if information can be given as
soon as possible. This helps us to run our call centres effectively. Additionally the
following facilities are also important:
 
* They are non-geographic - which means they cost the same to call from anywhere; this makes them equivalent for all callers
* They offer resiliency and business continuity - in the event of overload or disaster calls can seamlessly be routed to another location without the caller needing to know or re-dial
* They allow for "load balancing" - i.e. distributing calls across multiple locations, in order to improve answer times.

We appreciate that people calling from outside the UK may not be able to access
0845 numbers from abroad, and therefore offer a geographic number to
international callers. You will only be connected if you are calling from outside the
UK to this number.  Some countries will not connect callers to 0845 or 0870
numbers, as they classify these calls as premium rate, the cost of which they will
have to absorb.  If the country does allow calls to non-geographic numbers, they
may charge an additional fee. By offering a UK geographic number, we are trying to keep the cost of calling us as low as possible for International Callers.

The reason that we have taken the step to block those calls made from within the
UK to the 020 7278 5240 number is that BT does not allow us to offer the facilities
I've mentioned above. It would have a significant impact on the business and our
customers if we were to allow people to use the 0207 number - customer who call
on the International Line may find that they are waiting longer for their call to be
answered than those who call the 08457 484950 number.

I appreciate that you can't benefit from BT's inclusive offer by calling 0845 numbers, but I'd like to put this into context. When you call us, the introduction announcement takes an average of 27.5 seconds (16 seconds if you call from a land line and 39 seconds if you call from a mobile). This is because we offer different added value services if you call from a mobile phone (for example, 'text my journey').  Once these announcements are made, you join the queue - from this point over the four weeks 20 November to 17 December, it has taken an average of 20.3 seconds to answer calls.  For the same period, the 'average handling time' (the time you spend speaking to an adviser) was 1 min and 45 seconds. So, the average call length was approximately 2mins 33 seconds. At BT's call rates (see BT's website - http://www.downloads.bt.com/pricing/SpecialisedNos.pdf) the average call to National Rail Enquiries' 0845 number is 7.5p during the daytime, 2.5p during the evening and 1.25p at the weekend.
 
As I explained earlier, we are regulated by the Department for Transport (DfT), who requires us to offer the 0845 number. If you wish to escalate your complaint further, you may wish to speak to the DfT's directly. If so, you can send a letter to them at the address below. The DfT aim to respond to all letters and faxes within 20 working days of receipt.

Department for Transport
Great Minster House
76 Marsham Street
London
SW1P 4DR

Telephone: 020 7944 8300
Fax: 020 7944 9643

Thank you taking the time to contact us. I hope this helps explain why we don't offer geographical telephone numbers to access our service.

Have a nice weekend.
 
Kind regards


Ben Payne
Information Content Manager
National Rail Enquiries

Keith

Thank you for your email.  I do appreciate that you have raised some very valid
points - as you mention, the arrangement we have with the DfT was indeed made
before the change to the tariffs and other charged made by BT in 2004.

As I said in my last email, we won't be unblocking the international number to UK
callers, but will certainly make sure that you comments are taken forward to our
Operation Manager for consideration in future business decisions.

I appreciate that this may not be the response you were hoping for, but there is little that the National Rail Enquiries team can do to remedy your complaint further. You may of course raise your concerns with the DfT, using the contact details I provided previously.

You may also wish to escalate your concerns about the way BT and other phone
companies charge for calling non-geographical telephone number. You are
probably aware that Ofcom is the independent regulator and competition authority for the UK communications industry. There contact details are:

     Ofcom,
     Riverside House,
     2a Southwark Bridge Road,
     London,
     SE1 9HA
     Tel 020 7981 3000 (Switchboard)
     Fax: 020 7981 3333

Once again, thank you for taking the time to contact us.

Kind regards



Ben Payne
Information Content Manager
National Rail Enquiries

Keith wrote on Jan 11^th, 2007 at 10:45pm:


Can't believe they are still trying on this 4/5 year old and totally inaccurate line given to them years ago by their telco supplier's sales person.

Just point them to the following.  Tell them they are wrong and to get it changed.  Threaten to go to the ASA with your complaint if they do not comply with your request.

See the following:-

The view of a county council trading standards department

Para 1.3 Page 1 of www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/oftel_0845/responses/leicester_cc.pdf

and

the view of the CEO of BT Retail, Ian Livingston

http://business.scotsman.com/banking.cfm?id=764772005

and

two recent guidances from the Advertising Standards Authority

www.asa.org.uk/cap/news_events/news/2005/Hanging+on+the+telephone+on+and+on+and+...

www.asa.org.uk/cap/news_events/news/2005/Stop+the+call+confusion.htm

and
the Parliamentary Early Day motion deploring the use of 0870 telephone numbers by government departments

http://edmi.parliament.uk/EDMi/EDMDetails.aspx?EDMID=28872%09%09%09%09%09%09%09&...; amp;SESSION=875

and

Another guidance from the Committee of Advertising Practice of the Advertising Standards Authority

www.cap.org.uk/cap/news_events/news/2005/CAP+rings+the+changes+for+telecoms+prov...

and Pages 5 and 6 of the below minutes from my own district council where we agreed policy to stop the future use of 0845 and 0870 numbers.

www.molevalley.gov.uk/media/pdf/1/s/Council_Minutes_190705.pdf

And the most recent ASA guidance saying that Inclusive call packages must not fail to disclose in marketing that 084/7 calls are excluded from them because they are not charged at geographic call rates and cost more.

www.cap.org.uk/cap/news_events/news/2006/Ringing+the+Changes.htm

I phoned National Express some time back on their land line number and while we were talking about timetables etc. I told the call centre operator about the rip-off of the 0870 and 0845 prefixes and the www.saynoto0870.com site.

This operator told me they were unaware that these prefixes were so expensive for some users and said that they will promote the site to everyone they knows.   It seems many people are unaware or just apathetic about the rip-off problem that has infested out telecoms structure for years.

As for Ofcom: this org. is as much use as a chocolate fireguard. It is heaving with overpaid committees consisting of Lords and Ladies etc who have no conception whatsoever of everyday life on the street, sit at their shiny desks, go home to their mansions and London bolt-holes and dont give a toss, quite frankly! Plus callcentre ops that are liken to robots dishing out the same crap the BBC dish out to complainants. Their standard replies to emails and written enquiries are pathetic.

I have dealt with Ofcom on a different matter and they are a useless as a regulator for my concerns as they are with telecommunications.  

I have had success with obtaining geo numbers and Box Clever ex Granada TVrental always phone me back immediately when they are asked by me to do this. Maybe this is just my local branch but I try this tack and succeed sometimes.  

Betty