SAYNOTO0870.COM - FOI response

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Re: FOI response - BBC
Reply #30 - Sep 21^st, 2006 at 10:58am

The BBC appears to be above reproach and therefore thinks itself as not a accountable to anyone/anything.

The thing is it is allowed to get away with stuff and is exempt from some things whereas other government departments aren't.

Another example is adverts on BBC do not come under the remit of ASA so the BBC is in itself accountable to itself for adverts. How is that being independant?

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Re: FOI response - BBC
Reply #31 - Sep 25^th, 2006 at 2:21pm

derrick wrote on Sep 12^th, 2006 at 1:38pm:

The BBC’s decision to withhold the underlying geographic numbers was made under section 43(2) of the Freedom of Information Act (commercial interests), for three reasons:
• that releasing the information would create an operational risk with the telephone switch being potentially compromised by lobby groups choosing to “attack” the switch by calling directly thus circumventing all the protection offered by C&W’s Call Plans

Now if this is all true then why is the BBC able to use normal geographical numbers for BBC Watchdog?

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derrick

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Re: FOI response - BBC
Reply #32 - Sep 13^th, 2007 at 4:09pm

I have just received some correspondence from the ICOs office re my request, boy don't they take some time? and it is by no way near a decision, the 0870 will have stopped revenue sharing before a decision is taken on this, and if not, and it goes my way, the BBC will appeal it, so I don't think we will get a result before revenue sharing ends!

Have you also noticed they are now supplying an 0845 number for telephone contact on the bottom of letters!

12th September 2007

Case Reference Number FS5013****

Dear Mr
I am writing to inform you that your case has now been allocated to me to investigate your complaint against the British Broadcasting Company ("BBC").
In order to reach a decision as to whether the Freedom of Information Act ("the act") has been correctly applied, I will need to carry out a thorough investigation. This may take me some time as I will need to ensure that I am aware of all the relevant facts and that I carefully consider the application of the law to those facts.
Where possible the Information Commissioner prefers complaints to be resolved by informal means. If this does not prove to be possible, he will usually issue a Decision Notice to you and the public authority once an investigation has been completed. This will inform you of his decision and the reasons for it.
Where the Commissioner decides that a request has not been handled properly he may specify what steps he believes are necessary to remedy the situation. This can include requiring a public authority to release information which has previously been withheld. A copy of the Decision Notice will be placed on our website (with your details omitted). If you disagree with the decision that has been reached you have a legal right of appeal to the Information Tribunal.
Your request
From the information which you have provided to us, I understand that you made a request to the BBC by e-mail on 31 July 2006 for the geographic telephone numbers behind the 0870 numbers.

The BBC provided a response to you on 2 August 2006 in which it refused to disclose the information you requested on the basis of the exemption contained in section 43(2) of the act.
You requested an internal review of the public authority's decision on the 3 August 2006. On 7 August 2007 the public authority wrote to you with the details of the result of the internal review it had carried out. The outcome of the review was to uphold the original decision.
The scope of the case
The focus of my investigation will be to determine whether or not the BBC has acted in accordance with the act.
Please contact me as soon as possible if there are matters other than these that you believe should be addressed. This will help avoid any unnecessary delay in investigating your complaint. If I do not hear from you, my investigation will focus only upon the matters identified above.
As I have indicated, the process of reaching a decision may take some time but I will update you on the progress of the investigation as appropriate but at least every 6-8 weeks. However, if you have any queries at any time you are welcome to write to me at the above address, or at
Richard.Lawanson@ico.gsi.gov.uk (please ensure that you quote the above case reference) or by telephoning me on 016125 524 5386.
It may not be possible for me to respond to enquiries immediately due to other work commitments but I will endeavour to provide a response as promptly as possible and will ensure that a response is provided within 14 working days of the receipt of any enquiry.
Yours sincerely

Richard Lawanson

Senior ComplaintsOfficer

Information Commissioner's Office, Wycliffe House, Water Lane, Wilmslow, Cheshire, SK9 5AF t:0845 630 6060 f:01625 524510 e:mail@ico.gsi.gov.uk w:ico.gov.uk

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jgxenite Supreme Member Offline Help us to help you - read the instructions!! Posts: 1,454 Gender:	Re: FOI response - BBC Reply #33 - Sep 14^th, 2007 at 12:56pm derrick wrote on Sep 13^th, 2007 at 4:09pm: telephoning me on 016125 524 5386 Also notice how he misquoted his telephone number so any "not in the know" person would have to ring the 0845 number to get hold of him...
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derrick

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Re: FOI response - BBC
Reply #34 - Sep 14^th, 2007 at 3:56pm

jgxenite wrote on Sep 14^th, 2007 at 12:56pm:

derrick wrote on Sep 13^th, 2007 at 4:09pm:

telephoning me on 016125 524 5386

Also notice how he misquoted his telephone number so any "not in the know" person would have to ring the 0845 number to get hold of him...

I hadn't picked up on that, I just thought it was a number in Manchester, they could have an office there!

Any way I have just rung the number as it is written and it seems to connect to a fax machine, at least it makes noises that I have heard before when I connect to a fax machine!

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« Last Edit: Sep 14^th, 2007 at 3:57pm by derrick »

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irrelevant Senior Member Offline Posts: 409	Re: FOI response - BBC Reply #35 - Sep 14^th, 2007 at 4:28pm 0161 is Manchester, 01625 is Wilmslow/Macclesfield and is only spitting distance away (it was/is within the local call area for Manchester residents) so I'd assume it was just a typo as a local would be used to using both codes a lot.
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jgxenite Supreme Member Offline Help us to help you - read the instructions!! Posts: 1,454 Gender:	Re: FOI response - BBC Reply #36 - Sep 14^th, 2007 at 6:18pm The point wasn't that the area codes are geographically close - the point was the number with the extra 1 in wouldn't connect. Obviously he didn't proof read the letter before he sent it lol
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derrick

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Re: FOI response - BBC
Reply #37 - Mar 22^nd, 2008 at 10:14am

I have posted this elsewhere, but as this is the original thread, I thought I would put it here as well.

Received the following from th ICO,( I originally contacted this waste of space in September 2006 about this),

17 March 2008

Case Reference Number FS50******

Dear Mr ,

Thank you for your most recent email.

Unfortunately I am unable to provide you with a definitive date as to when the formal decision will be reached. Similarly, at present, I am not in a position to provide you with an indication as to my recommendations to the Commissioner. I would however appreciate your comments on some of the assertions (outlined below) made by the BBC.

The BBC has a general telecommunications technology contract with Siemens who order non-geographic numbers from their preferred communications supplier for BBC services - Cable & Wireless (C&W).There are two ways that the BBC receives 0870 numbers from C&W those supported with a call plan and those that are not.

0870 numbers with call plans attached have functionalities such as:

• Time of the day routing - which provides a mechanism for callers to be
diverted to different routing numbers dependent on the time of the day and the
day of the week.

• Queue Managers - which can be applied to any call centre where in-bound
peaks in call traffic exceed the resources available to answer calls. Calls are
automatically answered by the queue manager system and held in the
network.

• Call Forwarding - provides for call diversion to another number when lines
are busy or if there is no answer.

• IVR (Interactive Voice Responses) - provides for calls to be answered by an auto attendant service (currently C&W sub-contract their IVR services to Telecom Express).

The majority of the BBC's 0870 numbers with call plans are used by Capita to provide services to the BBC. While some calls may be forwarded to BBC geographic telephone numbers at a later stage, all the initial calls are routed through geographic telephone numbers owned and managed by Capita. Capita needing to have their own set of geographic numbers as a technical requirement for providing telecommunication services such as premium rate lines. As such the geographic telephone numbers are held by Capita not the BBC; nor are they held on the BBC's behalf by Capita.

If you wish me to consider your views on the BBC's assertions above (or indeed any views you have not previously expressed) please deliver them to me within twenty working days from the date of this letter.

■ Your sincerely

Richard Lawanson

Senior Complaints Officer

Any comments to assist in a response will be appreciated, as the last paragraph appears to give some scope for further questions/points

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NGMsGhost

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Re: FOI response - BBC
Reply #38 - Apr 17^th, 2008 at 7:56pm

Please go to the new thread I have just started regarding a crucial meeting of the BBC Executive Board on Monday April 21st to decide whether or not to switch to geographic call rate 03 numbers for all of the BBC's normal contact telephone numbers for all its programs and all its radio and tv stations.

Your help in emailing members of the BBC Executive Board and BBC Trust to indicate your personal backing for a switch by the BBC to all 03 numbers would be very helpful in persuading the BBC to take the right decision as we do not know whether the BBC Board Members have been advised to choose the 03 option or to choose some other more undesirable alternative such as switching to all 0845 or all 0844 5p per minute phone numbers.

See my new thread on this topic at www.saynoto0870.com/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.cgi?num=1208458341/0

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Re: FOI response - BBC
Reply #39 - May 6^th, 2008 at 5:03am

I've only joined this marvellous site in the last 14 days.Although, my own experiences with numerous govt depts have been - let me be polite - rather confrontational I reckon that if i had experienced some of the problems over such a time i might have invested my money in a few pick axe handles! A few well aimed strikes at their status symbol- the car would have given me a great deal of satisfaction.The latest answer you have recd is either the work of a man who is very clever and is deliberately obfuscating(good word ) the issues and is actually deriving sadistic pleasure from being patronising and imperious or he really has not been able to grasp the notion of why 0870/45 are unjust, not necessary and invariably hit hardest those who can least afford it.I do sympathise sometimes with the poorly trained, badly paid bods who are virtually put up as sacrificial lambs when trying desperately search for the bit of paper with the party line they are supposed to quote - whatever the query.Over the last 18 months I have earned myself a bit of a reputation.Whether it is a letter to a utility company or an email to my "mates" at the loacal job centre for a problem of my own or now increasingly someone else's I do derive comfort from slaying goliath.Armed with the right info (I can recommend the Handbook on welfare benefits by the child poverty action group) taking on these orgs can be quite amusing - absurd comedy - mayme hence my smiley.I can now see myself taking forward in a small way this websites work.Together we can change things.Respect to you all - regards nogard

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derrick

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Re: FOI response - BBC
Reply #40 - Mar 14^th, 2009 at 11:18am

I recently requested from the BBC all of their geo numbers for the 0845/0844/0871 numbers that they use, on Wednesday I received a list of numbers,(without locations), today, Saturday, I called all of the numbers supplied and list them as follows; -

TRIED NUMBERS BELOW ON SATURDAY MORNING 14th FEBRUARY BETWEEN 9-10

0845 Geographical Number equivalent

08453000097 02380710229 Number not answered
08453000190 02087527828 BBC person you are calling is not available
08453001086 02920322739 Message centre, please leave a message
08453002872 02074650264 Busy for at least 2 hours!!!
0845300319 01386421129 Number not recognised
08453033008 01628407777 Support rep will answer your call shortly!
08453007557 01604737652 Joanne cannot be reached, leave a message.
08453050961 02380374374 Solam guide? Only manned Fridays 8-4
08453043008 01628407777 Duplicate number.
08453053008 01628407777 “ “
08453055852 01604737652 “ “
08453063027 01619570019 BBC Northwest tonight
08453660090 02890338136 This number is not currently in use
08459001630 01159350098 Number not recognised!
08459005200 02476630809 BBC Coventry Radio
08459005200 02476630809 “ “ Duplicate number
08459006949 01179804346 Bristol Radio
08459007949 01179467467 Number not answered
08459123600 02089141603 Short change phone line! “show now off air” !!
08459200104 02890550080 Number not recognised
08459200105 02890550081 Number not recognised
08459311444 01865480995 Number not answered
08459311555 01865889089 Fax machine
08459311666 01865480991 BBC Jam line, traffic & travel for the South East, but will send out to other local stations
08459409644 01634821032 This goes to a Peugeot dealer in Rochester who assure
me that their number is 01634 842231
08459456700 01132247009 Dead number!
08459555678 02890555678 Radio Ulster
08459568811 02074470045 Fax machine
08459600701 02072242000 BBC Radio London
08459643120 02087429513 Private house
08459770775 01162537453 Number not answered.
08459818000 02087439552 Number not answered.

The following is the text that accompanied the numbers; -

Dear Mr ******

Freedom of Information request – RFI20****

Thank you for your request under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (“the Act”) dated 10
February 2009. The reference number for your request is RFI20090301.

You requested a copy of the following information:

“Please supply to me…all of the underlying geographical telephone numbers for all of your revenue
sharing telephone numbers beginning 0845, 0844, and 0871 these should include the telephone
numbers that are used to access BBC local radio stations, TV phone in shows and TV licensing,
these type of numbers are confirmed by Ofcom as being “revenue sharing”, i.e.
http://www.ofcom.org.uk/consumeradvice/landline/costofcalls/08faq/
”

It is noted that your request is being made in context of your previous request for information
RFI2006000462 and the resulting Information Commissioner Decision (reference number
FS50133140), in regards to underlying geographical numbers for the BBC’s 0870 revenue sharing
numbers.

As you will be aware, the ICO took the view that the BBC does not hold the information you
previously sought as regards non-geographic numbers accompanied by a call-plan, as numbers
accompanied by a call-plan “may be directed to an interactive voice response system or to a BBC
geographic number. Accordingly, there is not an equivalent geographical number held by the BBC for
its non-geographical numbers with a call plan”. However, the ICO required the BBC to disclose the
equivalent geographic number of the BBC’s non-geographical numbers not accompanied by a call
plan, and this was provided to you on 30 January 2009.

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derrick

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Re: FOI response - BBC
Reply #41 - Apr 21^st, 2009 at 1:42pm

Further to my post above, I received the following today after asking the BBC to confirm the numbers and to where they direct to; -

0845 number Geographic Equivalent Service

08453001086 02920322739 BBCWales
08453050961 02380374374 RadioSolent
08453055852 01604737652 RadioNorthampton
08453063027 01619570019 NorthWestTonight
08459005200 02476630809 BBCCoventry&Warks
08459006949 01179804346 RadioBristol
08459311444 01865480995 BBCOxford
08459311555 01865889089 BBCOxford
08459311666 01865480991 BBCOxford
08459456700 01132247009 RadioLeeds
08459555678 02890555678 RadioUlster
08459600701 02072242000 BBCLondon
08459770775 01162537453 AsianNetwork

I can't guarantee them being correct, as I have not had chance to ring them.

The following is the text that accompanied them; -

20 April 2009

Dear Mr ******

Freedom of Information request – RFI*****

Thank you for your further request under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (“the Act”) dated 15
March. The reference number for your request is RFI********. I apologise for the delay in our
response.

You requested a copy of the following information:

“I therefore request that you inform me of the terminating location for the list of numbers that you
have supplied, i.e which radio stations or offices that they relate to, this should be made under your
same reference RF**********.

If you chose not to use the same reference, then please treat this as a separate request under the
Freedom of Information Act 2000, and respond as my above request.
…
I require, as per my original request that you supply the geographical numbers for TV Licensing, this
company is employed by the BBC to collect the licence fee, (the way the BBC is funded), and
should not have a revenue sharing number to covertly extract more money from the licence fee payers.

0871 numbers, (as ALL 084/087), numbers DO have geographical numbers, that is how they work,
so please supply those numbers.

It is noted that your request is being made in context of your previous request for information
RFI2*****.

As you are aware, the Information Commissioner recently took the view that there is not an
equivalent geographical number held by the BBC when a non-geographical number is accompanied by
a call plan. However, where a non-geographical number is not accompanied by a call plan the BBC
was required to disclose the equivalent geographical number, as a result of Decision Notice
FS5********.

With reference to the above finding by the Information Commissioner, we have previously disclosed
to you all TV Licensing numbers that are not associated with a call plan, and these numbers and their
geographical equivalents were provided to you in our letter of 11 March 2009.

Furthermore, as advised in our previous correspondence, the BBC does use a limited number of non-
geographical 0871 numbers; however these numbers do not have a geographical equivalent. To
clarify, while the BBC does use a limited number of non-geographical 0871 numbers, these numbers
are accompanied by a call plan and therefore an equivalent geographical number is not held by the
BBC as supported by the above ICO Decision.

With regard to the 0845 numbers supplied to you in our letter of 11 March, the 0845 numbers are
predominately attached to local radio stations and there is no central record of the numbers and the
location where they terminate. I can confirm that the list provided to you in our response to
RFI******** came directly from the BBC’s 0845 number supplier, Cable & Wireless. We have
contacted the local radio stations and those with 0845 numbers currently in use are provided in the
amended table below. To clarify: the numbers omitted from this list are either not currently in use or
are not customer facing.

It is worth noting that we are currently reviewing our existing 0845 numbers as part of our
examination of a potential move to 0345. Some numbers which are rarely used - for example
because audience contact has generally switched to email or live calls to radio stations as opposed to
answerphone comment lines - will be discontinued as this process continues.

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« Last Edit: Apr 21^st, 2009 at 2:05pm by derrick »

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derrick

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Re: FOI response - BBC
Reply #42 - Apr 30^th, 2009 at 12:36pm

After requesting again that they supply me with the geo number for TV Licensing I received the following response; -

"Dear Mr ******

I write in response to your further query of 21 April 2009.

As we advised in our previous responses to your requests for information under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (reference numbers RFI20090301 and RFI20090445) TV Licensing only has three numbers that are not associated with a call plan, which are the minicom numbers. In our response of 11 March 2009, you were provided with the TVL numbers not associated with a call plan and their geographical equivalents.

You will note in our previous responses that we have made reference to the Information Commissioner Decision (FS50133140) where the ICO took the position that the BBC does not hold an equivalent geographical number where a non-geographical number is associated with a call plan. In the above case the ICO took the view that numbers accompanied by a call plan "may be directed to an interactive voice response system or to a BBC geographic number. Accordingly, there is not an equivalent geographical number held by the BBC for its non-geographical numbers with a call plan".

I trust the above is of assistance.

Yours sincerely
Charlotte Gibson

BBC Information Policy and Compliance
Room 2252, 2nd Floor, White City
201 Wood Lane
London W12 7TS, UK

Website: www.bbc.co.uk/foi
Email: mailto:foi@bbc.co.uk
Tel: 020 8008 2883
Fax: 020 8008 2398"

So they are hiding behind the ICO's decision re the previous case and will not release that, (highly profitable),number!

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irrelevant Senior Member Offline Posts: 409	Re: FOI response - BBC Reply #43 - May 1^st, 2009 at 7:14am Random thought - what do you think they'd say if you submitted a new request asking for details of the calls plans...?
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derrick Supreme Member Offline Posts: 1,124	Re: FOI response - BBC Reply #44 - May 1^st, 2009 at 9:16am irrelevant wrote on May 1^st, 2009 at 7:14am: Random thought - what do you think they'd say if you submitted a new request asking for details of the calls plans...? As the IC has already agreed with the BBC, that they do not hold these numbers, (which I doubt), then it would be a fruitless exercise.
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