SAYNOTO0870.COM - ACTION against the 0870/0845 rip-off

gdh82

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ACTION against the 0870/0845 rip-off
Jun 6^th, 2005 at 6:55pm

Dear SayNoTo0870 and all readers of this site,

How can we attempt to challenge this unfair rip-off ? Who do we campaign to ? Is it Ofcom ?

Is it possible that interested readers of this site could get something organised (if this isn't already being done)? This needn't be complicated nor time consuming. Perhaps we could put together a standard email that raises the issue and calls for action from the relevant authority ?

Imagine if Ofcom or whoever it is, then receives these standard complaints in 100s, 1000s or even more. Maybe I'm being naive but something would have to be done, if only the local number was given alongside the 0870/0845 eqivalent ?

It's got to be worth a try. What are we waiting for ?

Regards
Garry

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There's more of us that them, stick together and challenge 0870/0845 etc etc

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bill Full Member Offline Posts: 193	Re: ACTION against the 0870/0845 rip-off Reply #1 - Jun 6^th, 2005 at 8:02pm Such action has been discussed before and standard letters/e-mails/faxes were not viewed favourably. Multiple identical e-mails would amount to spamming - hardly an action likely to endear senders to the campaign (by all means write or e-mail your own individual complaint or point of view though).
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Dave Global Moderator Offline Posts: 9,902 Yorkshire Gender:	Re: ACTION against the 0870/0845 rip-off Reply #2 - Jun 6^th, 2005 at 8:11pm Quote: Such action has been discussed before and standard letters/e-mails/faxes were not viewed favourably. I don't usually post my emails to companies on here for this reason. The best advice I can give is you read some of the posts and form your own opinions, then you can write in your own words.
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gdh82

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Re: ACTION against the 0870/0845 rip-off
Reply #3 - Jun 7^th, 2005 at 12:51pm

Thanks Bill and Dave for your replies.

I too was pretty skeptical of standard complaint letters until recently. If you're registered with the MakePovertyHistory website you'll know from time to time you'll get an update email which provides you with the ability to email Tony Blair, Gordon Brown etc. The contents of the email are already laid out, although you can add to it if you wish, and you simply add your email address and click send - it literally takes seconds.

From from spamming, I believe this delivers a very clear message and when sent in the order of 50,000+ (as has happened) it delivers a very strong message too. I don't see why these techniques cannot be useful to the SayNoTo0870 site, and to a wider campaign of challenging this issue.

Any further responses would be appreciated.

Regards
Garry

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There's more of us that them, stick together and challenge 0870/0845 etc etc

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bbb_uk

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Re: ACTION against the 0870/0845 rip-off
Reply #4 - Jun 7^th, 2005 at 2:09pm

You have a good point but whether or not the letter varies from person to person should not make a difference to the overall service we are *meant* to receive from OfCOM.

I don't believe that whether OfCOM receive 1,000's of complaints written in very similiar format, or receive 1,000's of complaints written in different formats, they treat differently and pay more attention to. I suspect they would pass a few comments around the office that the letters are very similiar but each complaint would still have to be acknowledged.

I suspect though we would have more of a response to people just willing to add their own personal details to a "standard" letter than them having to write their own letters. I believe OfCOM would receive more complaints from us if it was in a standard format that we slightly changed, compared to us having to write completely our own letter - the conclusion of my own letter would basically be the same as that of the "standard" letter except OfCOM would receive more of these standard letters.

Now assuming for statistical reasons OfCOM have to publish the most complained about topic - this I suspect would be our fight to saynoto 0870 or at least better regulating of it, then this I hope would grab other peoples attention like newspapers, Which? to publish it in their publications, etc which in turn (hopefully) they would join our fight until such a time as OfCOM did something about it (probably the year 2020 though - lol).

I guess what i'm trying to say its down to media attention and making a big deal of it is really the only thing that is going help us persuade OfCOM to actually do something about it instead of taking years to "look into it"

I'm aware of Times' piece the other week and aware that Which? have been made aware of our fight but decide not to do anything. I suspect this would change though if this grabbed media attention more.

Does any of this actually make sense or am I rambling on a bit?

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« Last Edit: Jun 7^th, 2005 at 2:10pm by bbb_uk »

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davis

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Re: ACTION against the 0870/0845 rip-off
Reply #5 - Jun 7^th, 2005 at 6:46pm

My post on 25th may under heading NTS review stated the same-if all members of this site complained then some reaction must be forthcoming. I do feel however that a decision has already been reached on the future of NTS after talking to Geoff Brighton of Ofcom-pretty much status quo with a few adjustments. Change of description of national and local rate calls but not much else. I do feel that if everyone who accesses this site took the trouble to e-mail Geoff Brighton he may get the message that people are not happy-but then again as the Government control Ofcom and the Gov are one of tjhe biggest users of non-geo numbers I think that the flying pig exhibited following my post of 25th may (not technical enough myself to produce this) is very appropriate.

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gdh82

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Re: ACTION against the 0870/0845 rip-off
Reply #6 - Jun 9^th, 2005 at 8:06am

Thanks again for the replies. I'm very much a newbie when it comes to this issue and I'm realising how little I know compared to you guys.

Bbb_uk comments above made much sense – that it’s vital to get the issue as much attention as possible. I’m sure many people share our view on this issue but to compose and write/email takes some time and effort. But if SayNoTo0870 could be developed to automate this processs (akin to the MakePovertyHistory site), this could make a big difference. This site could then email all members inviting them to follow a link to complain - taking all the effort out of wording the complaint and sending it to the right place.

Having said that, Davis's comments above show that my suggestions may be too late. Then again, what have we got to lose ? Perhaps if this concerted campaign could be highlighted on other linked websites such as MoneySavingsExpert, then potentially the number of complaints could soar ?

But then again, what do I know ? Thanks again for the replies and for putting me in the picture on this issue.

Regards
Garry

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There's more of us that them, stick together and challenge 0870/0845 etc etc

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Dave

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Re: ACTION against the 0870/0845 rip-off
Reply #7 - Jun 9^th, 2005 at 11:03am

It does need a mass of complaints to companies. Having just written to my insurance company, they just wash their hands of the issue. They quote me the prices and that's it.

No acknowledgement of the points I put to them about whether they receive revenue or not. It's a 'couldn't care less' attitude.

It seems that companies are happy to do what they can to push up their profits, even if this means exploiting the public's ignorance. They will only do anything about it when they really have to. It's pure GR££D

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bill Full Member Offline Posts: 193	Re: ACTION against the 0870/0845 rip-off Reply #8 - Jun 9^th, 2005 at 12:57pm The only 'benefit' is that, to a large firm, the cost of replying by letter is said to be in the region of £12 - £20 these days. For a brief moment, it makes you feel better - and then you realise that customers dialling the 0870 numbers are paying.
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grimp

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Re: ACTION against the 0870/0845 rip-off
Reply #9 - Jun 27^th, 2005 at 3:34pm

Quote:

Thanks Bill and Dave for your replies.

The contents of the email are already laid out, although you can add to it if you wish, and you simply add your email address and click send - it literally takes seconds.

From from spamming, I believe this delivers a very clear message and when sent in the order of 50,000+ (as has happened) it delivers a very strong message too. I don't see why these techniques cannot be useful to the SayNoTo0870 site, and to a wider campaign of challenging this issue.

Garry, a number religous groups tried this approach earlier this year when they tried to get Ofcom to ban Jerry Springer the Opera. Ofcom received around 20,000 complaints mostly standard letters. From what I read they all received standard responses back.

The use of email and other electronic formats now make it easier for companies to collect all the complaints together and press a button to send the response out, making this type of action pointless.

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Phoneuser

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Re: ACTION against the 0870/0845 rip-off
Reply #10 - Jun 27^th, 2005 at 4:01pm

I've just moved this from another discussion to this one. I don't think this suggestion is spam as it's aimed at raising awareness of an issue that is important to many people, mainly because they don't know about it and it will go to contacts that people can genuinely say they know. This was my suggestion:

Apologies if someone has suggested this before but surely a great way to bring this in to the open is viral email? A well-crafted email covering what the issue is (0870 pricing, cheaper to call the US, companies taking money from customers without asking, etc), some of the perpetrators (Argos, Virgin (which uses 1-800 in the US), Sky, Friends Provident, etc), links to an 0870 provider, the Ofcom press release and saynoto 0870, etc, why the media hasn't taken up the cudgel, could be published on saynoto0870. This could be cut and pasted into an email and forwarded to people's address books with a request for them to forward to their contacts. I think it could work very well and highlight this issue to a mainly unaware audience. I don't mind doing a first draft for review if anyone thinks it's a good idea.

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Shiggaddi

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Re: ACTION against the 0870/0845 rip-off
Reply #11 - Jun 27^th, 2005 at 4:05pm

Garry, a number religous groups tried this approach earlier this year when they tried to get Ofcom to ban Jerry Springer the Opera. Ofcom received around 20,000 complaints mostly standard letters. From what I read they all received standard responses back.

Well, it may have been 20,000 standard replies, but thats 20,000 pieces of A4 paper, 20,000 envelopes, all going through the franking machine at 21p each (I assume it's sent 2nd class!!), someone or more than one person to administer the address creation software.

All you need to do, is ask for a reply in the post, rather than e-mail, from some of these big companies. Each complaint costs them money to deal with, even if it's a standard letter. They will soon realise that dealing with complaints about costs of their 0870 number, is more hassle than it's worth.

We have already seen evidence in this site already. People working for companies have come on, and registered here, and voiced their own opinions, and even accused us of either being a bunch of whingers, ringing the wrong grographic number, and taking up too much of their company time dealing with these complaints.

Also, don't forget all those FOI requests that people have posted in this site. Each of these have required someone to personally deal with the issue and e-mail/post a reply for each request.

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I realy hait itt wen peeple canot spel proply. Itt getts onn mye nervs sew mutch annd streses mee owt. Knot onley iz itt vary bade speling butt allso bade gramer.

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Phoneuser

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Re: ACTION against the 0870/0845 rip-off
Reply #12 - Jun 27^th, 2005 at 4:16pm

My own experience is that most simply do not bother to reply, and that is because it is indefensible. Those that have replied have gven erroneous information (Argos sent me an email saying that 0870 cost the same as a LOCAL call!) because they don't understand themselves. That nice airline Virgin gave 9/11 as one of the reasons to use 0870... I think that a viral email (like a chain letter, only better because it doesn't offer immortality or the death of a pet through forwarding or not doing so) is the answer. It raises awareness and prompts more and more people to think about the issue. This is not political, nothing is being sold, it is merely interesting and useful information.

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dorf

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Re: ACTION against the 0870/0845 rip-off
Reply #13 - Jun 27^th, 2005 at 5:31pm

Hi Phoneuser.

Actually in the circumstances I think that your idea is quite a good one potentially. Are you suggesting that you would do a draft of the words to be used only or are you suggesting that you could do a draft of the complete e-mail with all of its necessary components?

I think that in the face of Ofcom's continued refusal to take the proper regulatory action which is required under the Acts that the time has come for more drastic action to bring these scams to the public attention.

In fact perhaps even a trojan which dials an 0870 number and then delivers a message on this publicising the scams might be next after that, with a mailer which sends out the message to all in the address book? That would really get the point home!

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Ofcom are completely ineffectual

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dorf Supreme Member Offline I hate Qs on Premium NGNs Posts: 575 UK Gender:	Re: ACTION against the 0870/0845 rip-off Reply #14 - Jun 27^th, 2005 at 5:37pm Hi gdh82, This has already been tried by http://0870abuse.tripod.com and the result is essentially apathy; that is one of the issues you are fighting - the apathy of the average person towards this. Most just do not want to know, so it does not work.
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