SAYNOTO0870.COM - Why is this scam getting more prolific?

firestop

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Re: Why is this scam getting more prolific?
Reply #15 - Jun 21^st, 2005 at 12:53pm

If that is correct then I suggest seeing if it is still a possibility, with joint efforts from both sites surely an awfully large petition could be got.
I added my name to the current petition about money ads on kids TV, and I think there were over 11,000 signatures almost the same day as it was introduced!
The email I got from MSE asked me to forward to all my email contacts, too. This could be an excellent way of getting to people - a short description of the problem with 0870 and ask to sign and forward!
Could I suggest Daniel liaise with MSE Martin and see what they can come up with?

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bbb_uk Global Moderator Offline Posts: 2,041	Re: Why is this scam getting more prolific? Reply #16 - Jun 21^st, 2005 at 4:02pm Quote: ...Could I suggest Daniel liaise with MSE Martin and see what they can come up with? That's not a bad idea at all. Would it be possible Daniel to just mention it to MSE Martin? As mentioned by bigjohn, MSE Martin posted this a while back but nothing has happened since.
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Phoneuser

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Re: Why is this scam getting more prolific?
Reply #17 - Jun 24^th, 2005 at 5:20pm

What about targetting certain users of 0870 with mass emails? A chain/viral email sent to a number of people asking them to cut and paste a letter of complaint about 0870 into an email and send it to a certain company at a certain time, and then another company the next day and so on. This would also increase awareness of the scam and provide the potential of brand damage to some these organisations.

This could also be a newsworthy activity. I am frustrated that my attempts to get this covered in the media have come to nothing because they don't want to upset their advertisers, maybe something like this could tip the balance?

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Phoneuser Newbie Offline Posts: 12	Re: Why is this scam getting more prolific? Reply #18 - Jun 24^th, 2005 at 5:22pm My apologies, I see that there was a suggestion a bit like mine made already, but without emailing the perpetrators. I still think this could be the way forward...
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grimp

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Re: Why is this scam getting more prolific?
Reply #19 - Jul 4^th, 2005 at 3:19pm

Quote:

I have also asked the question "just how many business lines now terminate on a NGN as a proportion of total business lines?" but Ofcom are either unable - or more likely refuse - to give the statistics. They are probably too scary to admit (and, as has been said before, most Ofcom employees are probably on the take from the scam as ex-BT employees). If the sheer extent of the scam were quantified, it might well make people sit up and take notice.......

Angry

To be honest quotes like this do not help the cause, suggesting that most of the employees of Ofcom are on the take only makes us look like a bunch of extremists. Ofcom has around 800 staff with only around a quarter coming from Oftel. The Radiocommunications Agency make up most of the numbers in Ofcom.

It's likely that Ofcom doesn't have the information about how many business lines terminate on NGN's. They allocate the numbers in blocks of 10k and don't really care whether they are used for competition lines, business numbers or isp dial up numbers. If you asked how many businesses use geographic numbers its unlikely that Ofcom has that information either.

I honestly belive that comments concerning stealth taxes for the government, public servants on the take and providing false complaint statistics do more harm than good and should be avoided.

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mikeinnc

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Re: Why is this scam getting more prolific?
Reply #20 - Jul 4^th, 2005 at 4:22pm

Quote:

To be honest quotes like this do not help the cause, suggesting that most of the employees of Ofcom are on the take only makes us look like a bunch of extremists. Ofcom has around 800 staff with only around a quarter coming from Oftel. The Radiocommunications Agency make up most of the numbers in Ofcom.

Perhaps I should clarify my thinking here. As has often been said, many of the Ofcom staff are probably ex-BT employees. It is well known (I think?) that BT, in common with many other businesses, is in severe difficulties with its Pension Fund. Now think about it. You are an ex-BT employee with a pension fund that you know is in trouble. You work for a "Regulator" who - nominally - has the power to stop BT earning billions (yes, billions!) of pounds of extra revenue from a very clever 'sleight of hand' and some extremely smart marketing. - plus, of course, a lax regulatory regime. Are you REALLY going to cut off the gravy train - when to do so is likely to have (possibly) severe effects on your retirement package? I think not!! If this is NOT the case, then perhaps the head of Ofcom would like to come out and say so publicly.

BT are maintaining a revenue stream that started when they installed the first STD exchange back in 1957? and timed local calls. They saw a unique opportunity with the introdcution of NGN - and they grabbed it with both hands. In every other country, calls are going down in cost - in most cases, dramatically. In the UK? They just continue to go up. Even VoIP won't change that - just look at the rates on, say, Vonage in the UK - and then compare with Vonage in the USA where ALL calls to anywhere in the US or Canada are inclusive.

Even Skype has a reminder that "Shared cost numbers are Premium numbers in the UK (area codes 0844, 0845, 0870 or 0871) often used by businesses and other institutions. Shared Cost numbers are charged at a higher rate than regular numbers." And why - so BT can maintain it's revenue stream!

Extremist? I think not. Damned annoyed? You betcha!

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dorf Supreme Member Offline I hate Qs on Premium NGNs Posts: 575 UK Gender:	Re: Why is this scam getting more prolific? Reply #21 - Jul 4^th, 2005 at 8:27pm Absolutely mikeinnc, well put!
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dag

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Re: Why is this scam getting more prolific?
Reply #22 - Jul 7^th, 2005 at 7:49pm

Personally, I think the reason the public don't seem to care is because mobile phone termination charges are a bigger issue. Yes, calls to 0870 numbers are a rip-off - but calls to mobile phones are even more of a rip-off.

Of course, it's possible to choose your friends. I figure that a person who doesn't have a fixed line, and who can only be contacted by mobile phone, probably doesn't have a very stable lifestyle, and are therefore likely to be unreliable as friends. I am therefore disinclined to maintain acquaintance with such people.

I appreciate that not everyone thinks the same way as me.

But with 0870 numbers, you don't have that choice. Government departments and utility companies use 0870 numbers. You can't choose not to be friends with them in the same way. Speaking personally - and despite my best efforts, using sources like Say No To 0870 - my spending on calls to NGN's is still significantly higher than my spending on calls to UK mobiles.

But for many people, it will be the other way round. So I suggest we take a two-pronged approach - we campaign against NGN's and high termination charges for mobiles at the same time.

To compare with the USA and Canada, mobile phone users usually have to pay to receive calls, or have incoming calls counted out of their inclusive minutes in the same way as outgoing calls. As a result, calls to mobiles are the same price as calls to fixed line numbers - in fact, mobile phones are issued with local phone numbers, and you can't tell the difference between fixed and mobiles from the number.

As a result, NGN's which cost more than fixed lines but less than mobiles don't exist in the USA and Canada - and companies are therefore unable to get away with using them.

The good news is that calls to mobile phones are on the way down - it's now 4p a minute during the week with Dialwise, and 2p a minute at the weekend with 1899. But they're not yet low enough to make NGN's stand out on the bill of the average medium-to-heavy phone user.

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Dave

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Re: Why is this scam getting more prolific?
Reply #23 - Jul 7^th, 2005 at 8:53pm

Quote:

Personally, I think the reason the public don't seem to care is because mobile phone termination charges are a bigger issue. Yes, calls to 0870 numbers are a rip-off - but calls to mobile phones are even more of a rip-off.

And with the introduction of 05 numbers for VoIP, it begs the question what is the point of competition focusing on the price of geographical calls? We don't like being ripped off with 084/087 number translation services, but it seems that VoIP will have the same problems if Ofcom doesn't get its finger out with regards number pricing in general.

Quote:

To compare with the USA and Canada, mobile phone users usually have to pay to receive calls, or have incoming calls counted out of their inclusive minutes in the same way as outgoing calls. As a result, calls to mobiles are the same price as calls to fixed line numbers - in fact, mobile phones are issued with local phone numbers, and you can't tell the difference between fixed and mobiles from the number.

At present, the mobile networks provide packages which charge 'line rental'. This is a misuse of the term as it is simply a payment for the inclusive minutes and a handset. If one doesn't want a handset every year (or 18 months), then it's a complete waste of money going on a contract. Not only that, but outside inclusive minutes, calls aren't that much different to pay as you go.

I do not see why we cannot pay a fixed amount per month, as is the case for a landline. This would allow the mobile networks to reduce their termination charges and reduce the rates they charge for calls originating from mobiles.

Instead, we have to pay them per minute at extortionate rates. That is, the same pence per minute if we make/receive one 1 minute call every month compared to hours and hours of calls per month.

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