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It was my suggestion to block the number and state the call is from overseas, and I stand by it 100%. It is the ONLY way to deal with the cretins that operate customer service in the United Kingdom and operate this subtle rip-off without a care to the end users. If you think I have sympathy with the profitable businesses that operate these call centers then think again! I can call my cellular provider, airport, bank, phone company, cable tv service, credit card issuer, computer support line, car rental agency, any government agency and thousands of other service providers here in the US at NO COST. Not 8p per minute in a queue for thirty minutes, but at NO COST. That's right - zero cost. This is because the companies here factor in the running cost of providing a SERVICE to customers into the overall cost and it's still cheaper than the UK!!! UK customer service is simply clueless and has jumped on to the 0870 racket because of the regulator's ineffectiveness, incompetence and corruption. If people here were asked to pay 15c per minute to call their providers to complain about shoddy service, then there would be uproar. It wouldn't happen and never will. Sony is a profitable company. It operates toll-free lines here in the US. It operates rip-off numbers in the UK. Why the difference? Simple. Because it can. It does because of crap regulation. It's a nice money earner. Get lots of incoming lines, provide far fewer staff to answer the calls and add a nice queueing system.

I agree with idb, if the likes of these companies can offer either normal rates or freephone in all other countries but yet choose to operate 0870 numbers here in the UK because OfCOM are useless and therefore they can get away with it.

If Sony were to start advertising that calls to 0870 cost upto 8ppm (a lot more from mobiles, etc) and they gain revenue from us calling them including waiting in line, just do you think they would still get as many calls as they do now?

As it is basically a premium rate number in disguise, if they were to start using a 09 number that charged around the same cost then would they get as many calls?

The answer is simply, NO.  They use (not just Sony) 0870 because here they can get away with it and most people are not aware of how much these calls cost and more importingly the fact they earn revenue from people calling them.

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Cretins is an apt description. Although I am a US resident, I am British and have interests in the United Kingdom. My bank, the NatWest, uses 0870 numbers for suspected fraud reporting. I point out to the bank that many of us that live, work or travel overseas cannot use 0870 numbers. The bank ignores my comment and discards it. Are they cretins? In my view yes they are. One example of many I have regarding clueless orgz in the UK. I repeat, these people are cretins.

Secondly, wrt computer/Sony helplines. I actually have a Vaio, bought in the US, together with a Toshiba laptop. The Vaio had a hardware failure shortly after purchase. I called Sony on its toll-free number and arranged for the system to be swapped out. The Tosh laptop developed a memory and HDD fault within warranty period. A call to Tosh, again using a toll-free number, resulted in a UPS box being sent out for the return of the system. All at no cost to me. All very easy. I could even call UPS free as it operates a toll-free number - try calling UK couriers on any numbers other than 0870. These examples are not caused by my not "reading the manual" or being in any way responsible for the problem. They are failures that can and do occur. Now if I was in the UK, and reporting a similar failure to Sony, I'd have to pay 8p per minute for the privilege of logging a fault. I am fully capable of reading manuals and using equipment in a proper way. When that equipment fails through no fault of my own, I EXPECT the manufacturer/provider to rectify, assuming it is within the warranty period. I DO NOT expect to pay a few pounds for making the call. If I wiped the HDD through my own stupidity, then that would be a different matter, nevertheless I should still not have to pay a premium over a normal geographic number to seek help.

I repeat - UK service uses premium numbers due to the lame regulator and the corruption involved in the telephone numbering system. I have no idea whether MS charges for support. Many software companies do charge for support after the first call or so, or after ninety days, and this is perfectly acceptable. They do NOT charge 15c per minute just to call them in the first place and listen to inane music for thirty minutes before answering the call.

0870 and especially 0871 mean extortion. Sure it's legal, but it IS extortion.

I thank you all for your input, this is the last posting from me unless anything worth adding to is seen by me.

I still stand by my original message that SOME method of collecting revenue is required for SOME  services, and comparing one national model with another is not wholly fair. Your Vaio if it failed in the UK would have been dealt with in exactly the same way, Sony would have uplifted it swopped it out/repaired it free of charge. I forget the ratio of calls logged to this number for requests for service against general 'usage' enquiries, it was told to me once, and it was high.

The microsoft contact, I cannot follow your link here at work, I take your word that its free in US and not in UK, but whose to blame? Microsoft? Oftel? the end user?  And again is this for general contact or tech support. You have to make a distinction for the arguments to be valid.

Totally 100% agree with calls on hold. If you are paying a premium the call should be put through immediately, or an engaged tone which is free allowing you to dial again - for the UK model.

Would like to check out your comparisons on UK v USA dialing may do if I have the time cheers for now

pnclark I suspect has some sort of vested interest in this rip-off continuing?

The whole point pnclark is about attempted deception. None of us object to impoverished (unprofitable) companies using 09 numbers to pay for the sorts of service you mention. That is the honest straightforward way if you want to make your customers pay for this apparently EXPERT advice.

Personally I have NEVER myself been able to get any EXPERT advice from any call centre. Usually I have found that the calibre of person which these cost-cutting companies employ as supposed "EXPERTS" are so dumb that if the answer is not on the crib sheet numbers 1 to 10 they are all at sea and I have to write to the company afterwards to get the problem sorted anyway.

The truth, is as you in fact well know, that companies only love non-09 NGNS so much because queuing is prohibited with 09 NGNs. They know that they can make vast amounts of money keeping their customers on hold for as long as possible with non-09 NGNs. That is why you do not want to have to use 09 NGNs instead of these scams as you should be doing! It would mean the end of the Musak fruit machine payouts!

I just knew that this silly argument would come up again one day ! 

As a support engineer, I charge £250 per day (or part of) plus travel costs, for technical support problems.
Non-Contract customers call the 09xx number commisioned especially for this purpose, which charges at a slightly higher hourly rate (but works out lower overall).

Not reasonable you say! You haven't been on the other end of the support line. I can assure you that 09xx reduces the number of silly calls. Oh, we still get them, but it leaves room for the deserving cases. If I came on a callout for a silly call it would cost you a Basic charge for 1.5 hours, at £40/hr, plus travel costs, plus parts (plus VAT)!

e.g. I can tell you over the phone to go and get a replacement keyboard; cost = £5, plus the £1.50 for the call, plus your trip to the supplier and half an hour of your time. Cost to you of less than £10.
Callout costs £60, plus keyboard £7.50, my travel - 30 miles @ 45p/mile = £13.50, plus VAT ; Total = £95.18 !!
Now work out the cheapest method and tell me which you'd rather pay !

Support contracts for next day on-site cost a lot of money, (8 hour and 4 hour even more!) but if you don't need it, why pay it ? The advantage of having a contract is that you get a normal number to call because you've already paid your dues. Same thing goes for telephone support for something you may never need.
- look at the rates for 09xx and 0870 when you do have a problem, call the Helpline @ £1.50/min or 7.51p/min and tell me which you'd rather pay.

I agree with Dave's comment Quote:

Change these 0870 Technical Support numbers to 09xx and stop pffafing around. It cuts out the queuing (NOT allowed) and you have to tell the caller it's a Premium rate call & the charge/minute.

I agree totally with DaveM, if your call centre staff are there to deal with technical support issues, or provide expertise over the phone, that you would normally pay for, then by all means, charge for it, at the premium rate using an 09 number.

You get information services, dating, live tarot readings, adult lines etc etc, and the cost of this is paid in total by the caller.

However there is no real place for 0870 numbers.  Big companies use the arguments that it helps pay for their call centres as justification for it.  Wasn't it only a few years ago, banks closed branches, the AA closed their shops, high street insurance closed branches, saying that their central contact centre will improve their costs, and enable them to offer a better service, and now they're saying that answering those calls in India will save them even more money.

Now they're saying that 0870 numbers help with their costs of setting up their telephone equipment, and the cost of routing calls to India.  What a total farce, the cost of setting up your telephone equipment is an investment you're making because it's cheaper to run a telephone system than maintain loads of local branches.  As for roting calls to India, yes it does cost more to route them there, but the staff answering the phone are paid less than in this country.

I recently had a complaint to Natwest Bank (a banking issue, not an 0870 issue), and received a letter from them, however the complaint hasn't been resolved to my satisfaction, and I intend talking to them about taking the matter further.  They clearly stated in their letter that if I'm not satisfied with the outcome, then I'm welcome to call my local branch on 0845 ......

Can pnclark justify why I should pay this extra charge to take my complaint further, and what additional service the customer gains from paying a premium for their telephone call.  Perhaps this premium might put off some customers from calling, which for handling complaints is very handy!!