SAYNOTO0870.COM - London Blasts - Using 0870 as Emergency Number

NonGeographicalMan

Ex Member

Re: London Blasts - Using 0870 as Emergency Number
Reply #255 - Jul 13^th, 2005 at 4:14pm

Quote:

The Report of the Review of Pito said the organisation should be scrapped. "The present structure and organisation of police ICT lacks clear definition or purpose, results in confused lines of responsibility and is almost certainly poor value for money," it said. [...]

I think we would all agree Pito is poor value for money, especially in respect of its telecoms policy.

I would urge you to email demanding the immediate joint resignations of its Chairman and Chief Executive to:-

Chris.Earnshaw@pito.pnn.police.uk

and

Phillip.Webb@pito.pnn.police.uk

You should also cc this email to:-

john.gieve@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk

hazel.blears@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk

commissioner@met.police.uk

oliver.lloyd@mailonsunday.co.uk

dennis.rice@mailonsunday.co.uk

Back to top

IP Logged

omy

Full Member

Offline

I came - I saw - I went
home.

Posts: 129

Re: London Blasts - Using 0870 as Emergency Number
Reply #256 - Jul 13^th, 2005 at 11:51pm

Following a complaint to my MP regarding the use of 0870 for the helpline, I have just received a reply from him in which he just copies me the email from BT to himself. There are some 'interesting' statements in it,

1) BT is lobbying the regulator Ofcom to either scrap non-geographic numbers such as 0870 and 0845, or insist that all operators charge exactly the same price for these calls.

Note the '..or insist all operators charge the same' bit! (The get-out clause??)

2) In situations when BT is the operator for an 0870 number, BT's share of the revenue is set by the regulator Ofcom and we are only allowed to recover our costs. BT makes no profit on these calls.
3) BT takes a tiny percentage of the revenue from customers' calls to premium rate numbers. For example, BT will take just 3p a minute from a call costing the caller £1.50 a minute.

Any comments?

Back to top

« Last Edit: Jul 14^th, 2005 at 12:24am by DaveM »

IP Logged

NonGeographicalMan

Ex Member

Re: London Blasts - Using 0870 as Emergency Number
Reply #257 - Jul 14^th, 2005 at 1:07am

Quote:

1) BT is lobbying the regulator Ofcom to either scrap non-geographic numbers such as 0870 and 0845, or insist that all operators charge exactly the same price for these calls.

?

My reading of BT's proposals was that they suggested that revenue share was abolised on 0845 and 0870 and that these numbers were then neutralised by only being charged the same way by any telco as that telco's other charges for normal geographic phone numbers.

The sting in the tail came from the fact that BT made no request that revenue share be abolished on 0844 or 0871 (a proposal that is however made in Ofcom's own Option 4). The way I saw it was that BT's idea was to allow all the companies who had been conned into using 0870 and 0845 numbers by smart salesmen to resume charging their customers normal call prices while allowing their more scamster minded call centres to carry on scamming by migrating to 0871 or 0844. The idea seems to be that as these 0844 and 0871 numbers will no longer be able to be called national call rate and local call rate and as they will have multiple tariff bands (up to 10p per minute) there will no longer be misunderstandings about by customers calling them. I don't agree as customers have already been conditioned to believe 087 is "national rate" and 084 is "local rate". I would personally abolish all 084 and 087 revenue share except for approved legacy internet ISP numbers.

Quote:

In situations when BT is the operator for an 0870 number, BT's share of the revenue is set by the regulator Ofcom and we are only allowed to recover our costs. BT makes no profit on these calls. BT takes a tiny percentage of the revenue from customers' calls to premium rate numbers. For example, BT will take just 3p a minute from a call costing the caller £1.50 a minute.

BT takes 3p per minute from 0870 calls at 7.5p per minute. On my maths that's 40% of the total cost to the caller which does not appear to be tiny in anyone's book. How typically cynical of BT to quote £1.50 a minute numbers which are not a serious problem because anyone using such numbers has a choice as these are sex, chat or legal advice lines.

But why not read BT's full proposal for yourself here:-

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/ntsoptions/Responses/btrev.pdf

The revised BT proposal Option 2A starts on P23 of this document.

Back to top

« Last Edit: Jul 14^th, 2005 at 1:13am by N/A »

IP Logged

omy

Full Member

Offline

I came - I saw - I went
home.

Posts: 129

Re: London Blasts - Using 0870 as Emergency Number
Reply #258 - Jul 14^th, 2005 at 5:46am

Further to my post #234 on the Red Cross use of 0870.

I responded, and pointed out that their reply said they made no profit from 0870, but in the next sentence say the revenue goes to pay their admin costs?!
Then I pointed out that 0870 were 8p/min, NOT the 6p they quoted.
I asked why they didn't use an 0845 (it would be slightly better for customers) and, could the Red Cross not 'persuade' providers to give them an 0800 for emergencies like this.

Their reply:-

Many thanks for your additional comments.

I can only reiterate the information we have already provided, which is accurate to the best of our knowledge.

You may also be interested in the following additional points:

we use a mixture of 0845 and 0870 numbers as appropriate to the situation.

Advise provided at the time of the 9/11 incident was not to use freephone numbers (0800) as unfortunately these numbers attract a high number of nuisance calls.

The decision to use non-geographic numbers was made for several reasons, but primarily because of the ability to redirect the numbers to any nominated number at very short notice. This is key to our flexibility in business continuity arrangements, and for resourcing emergency response phone lines.

I do hope this addresses your further concerns

Well, no, it didn't satisfy me - so there will be no Red Cross donations from here any more.

Back to top

IP Logged

idb

Supreme Member

Offline

Posts: 1,499
Miami, Florida, United States
Gender: male

Re: London Blasts - Using 0870 as Emergency Number
Reply #259 - Jul 14^th, 2005 at 12:36pm

FOI Response - Ofcom:

1 - What involvement did Ofcom have, prior to the explosions in London on July 7, 2005, in planning for the telecommunication aspects of providing the casualty bureau?

None.

2 - Was there any prior liaison between Ofcom, PITO, The Home Office, the Metropolitan Police and any other relevant government departments and organizations?

No.

3 - Did Ofcom have any advance notice that the London Casualty Bureau number would use an 0870 number and if not, when did Ofcom first become aware that the 0870 number was being used?

No. We first became aware when the number began to be issued to the public via the media.

4 - After becoming aware of the 0870 number being used, did Ofcom make any representation to either PITO, the Metropolitan Police, the Home Office or any other relevant organization about the inappropriate use of such a number?

Yes. We contacted Met, PITO and Home Office in that order to say that this was inappropriate.

5 - Did Ofcom point out the problems that international callers may have experienced in attempting to contact a non-geographic number?

Yes.

6 - What steps is Ofcom taking such that a future incident (plane crash, terrorism, major accident etc) does not use a non-geographic number for international callers?

We have reiterated our guidance on the use of NTS numbers; additionally, we are recommending that toll-free plus geographic should be the best practice route for these kind of emergency helplines.

7 - How many complaints, wither by telephone, fax. email or mail has Ofcom received regarding the use of an 0870 number for this incident?

5 complaints have been logged to date

Back to top

As from November 21, 2013, I no longer participate in the forum and am unable to receive private messages.

IP Logged

NonGeographicalMan Ex Member	Re: London Blasts - Using 0870 as Emergency Number Reply #260 - Jul 14^th, 2005 at 12:45pm Quote: 5 complaints have been logged to date It seems that emails to Messrs Carter, Peacock at senior level conveniently do not get logged in the complaints database. So I had better log a complaint with the contact centre then - god give me strength!!
Back to top	IP Logged

Keith

Senior Member

Offline

Posts: 378
Surrey
Gender: male

Re: London Blasts - Using 0870 as Emergency Number
Reply #261 - Jul 14^th, 2005 at 1:27pm

I do not believe that there were only 5 complaints (maybe only 5 logged). It would be interesting to know who else accessing this site complained. I certainly did and the operator I spoke to told me she had received other calls of complaint.

Does one have to do something special to get a complaint logged i.e. was my rant logged or is it only logged if I speciafically request it to be so.

Back to top

IP Logged

NonGeographicalMan

Ex Member

Re: London Blasts - Using 0870 as Emergency Number
Reply #262 - Jul 14^th, 2005 at 1:41pm

Quote:

Does one have to do something special to get a complaint logged i.e. was my rant logged or is it only logged if I speciafically request it to be so.

Typical Ofcom Contact Centre staff technique is to dodge responsibility for and not log every call they take to make their stats look better.

They always tell you the matter you have called about is not Ofcom's area of responsibility (even when it is) and either there is nothing that can be done or that another body (eg Pito) is repsonsible and to complain to them.

So only if you inisit on it being lodged as a formal complaint with them and insist on a formal reply will it count in their complaint stats. Ofcom are totally cynical and ever devious on such matters.

Back to top

IP Logged

bbb_uk

Global Moderator

Offline

Posts: 2,041

Re: London Blasts - Using 0870 as Emergency Number
Reply #263 - Jul 14^th, 2005 at 1:51pm

On Tuesday 12th, I emailed the main four networks (cc'd newspapers & ofcom) and have today received my first reply - from Brian McBride, MD, T-Mobile:-
Quote:

We are looking at the mechanics of doing this. It's a small number of calls (less than 1000) and small revenue (£500). We will do what's right. We will not seek to profit from these terrible events.

Regards,

From Brian.

brian.mcbride@t-mobile.co.uk

Now assuming it is from Brian himself as I think the way its been signed isn't professional in anyway, then at least we have one network willing to donate the profits. The other people on my list haven't answered yet but most have read the email I sent.

Back to top

« Last Edit: Jul 14^th, 2005 at 1:56pm by bbb_uk »

IP Logged

NonGeographicalMan

Ex Member

Re: London Blasts - Using 0870 as Emergency Number
Reply #264 - Jul 14^th, 2005 at 1:58pm

Quote:

Now assuming it is from Brian himself as I think the way its been signed isn't professional in anyway, then at least we have one network willing to donate the profits. The other people on my list haven't answered yet but most have read the email I sent.

Why didn't you complain about the generality of their unfair prices for 0845, 0870 and 0800 numbers on most pay as you go mobiles and some contracts? For instance Vodafone has a "stop the clock" deal where you only pay for the first 3 minutes and then the next 57 minutes are free in the evening and at the weekend. This deal even applies to cross network mobile calls as well as to 01 and 02 numbers. But it does not apply to 0845, 0870 or 0800 calls.

When you look at the termination charges there is no reason for them treating these calls worse than a cross network mobile call. Its pure cynicism. On Vodafone Pay as You Go the 0845 and 0870 charges are not publised on their website or published in their Pay as You Go leaflet. They are only available by voice on their customer services line!

Back to top

IP Logged

Keith

Senior Member

Offline

Posts: 378
Surrey
Gender: male

Re: London Blasts - Using 0870 as Emergency Number
Reply #265 - Jul 14^th, 2005 at 2:45pm

Quote:

They always tell you the matter you have called about is not Ofcom's area of responsibility (even when it is) and either there is nothing that can be done or that another body (eg Pito) is repsonsible and to complain to them.

So only if you inisit on it being lodged as a formal complaint with them and insist on a formal reply will it count in their complaint stats. Ofcom are totally cynical and ever devious on such matters.

I don't believe I asked it to be logged it as a formal complaint. Primarily because I didn't know I should and I wasn't asked if I wanted to do so, so didn't know I needed to go thru' that process.

However I was told that it wasn't their responsibility and there was nothing they could do about it. I was told I should complain to the Home Office (seems to fit in with your reply)

So by all accounts it would seem my complaint was ignored even though it must have been very clear from the emotional nature of my call that I was very angry.

How many others fall into that catagory?

The person I spoke to was also very defensive, as if I was blaming them. I made it very clear that I wasn't blaming them for the 0870 number, but I wanted them to do something about it.

Back to top

IP Logged

NonGeographicalMan

Ex Member

Re: London Blasts - Using 0870 as Emergency Number
Reply #266 - Jul 14^th, 2005 at 2:59pm

Quote:

However I was told that it wasn't their responsibility and there was nothing they could do about it. I was told I should complain to the Home Office (seems to fit in with your reply)

So by all accounts it would seem my complaint was ignored even though it must have been very clear from the emotional nature of my call that I was very angry.

They always, always say your issue is nothing to do with them and they are always very defensive. The defensiveness seems to come from the fact that most of the contact centre staff are neither very bright or very well paid.

Their callers are usually always passionate but they are always bored and apparently wishing desperately to get to the end of their shift and get out of the place. Its a huge mismatch.

Perhaps if Matt Peacock, their Communications Director, spent a week working in the contact centre it might well open his eyes to what really goes on there.

May be you should call them back and check your complaint is now fully logged with them on their database.

Back to top

« Last Edit: Jul 14^th, 2005 at 3:00pm by N/A »

IP Logged

Dave

Global Moderator

Offline

Posts: 9,902
Yorkshire
Gender: male

Re: London Blasts - Using 0870 as Emergency Number
Reply #267 - Jul 14^th, 2005 at 3:42pm

Have they provided you with a reference number?

I 'corresponded' with the Ofcom Contact Centre last year when the BT Standard tariff was abolished. I received an emailed reply with a reference number.

I wrote to them in October saying that I had written to them previously and quoting the reference number.

The reply I received was very abrupt and they basically told me to "go away":
Quote:

Thank you for your email of 11 October 2004, the contents of which has been added to our records here.

As you say, we have previously corresponded on the issue of non-geographic numbers and revenue sharing.

Ofcom’s current position on this subject is as set out in http://www.ofcom.org.uk/consultations/past/0845/?a=87101. ; Further information on the work of Ofcom on 0845/0870 numbers will also be published on our website. If you are interested in receiving further updates on this, you can do so by registering on Ofcom’s website at http://www.ofcom.org.uk/static/subscribe/select_list.htm.

Yours sincerely

Steven Parker

Ofcom Contact Centre

With the same reference number, it would have probably been kept as one complaint, despite the fact that the first letter sent to them was 6 months previous and on a different subject!

Back to top

IP Logged

OFFSHORERADIO

Newbie

Offline

Posts: 8
LINCONSHIRE

Re: London Blasts - Using 0870 as Emergency Number
Reply #268 - Jul 14^th, 2005 at 3:55pm

Hi All

"We are looking at the mechanics of doing this. It's a small number of calls (less than 1000) and small revenue (£500). We will do what's right. We will not seek to profit from these terrible events. "

Well done T-Mobile

Lets hope ALL other mobile Co's follow his fine example

Nice one Brian

Dave

Back to top

IP Logged

NonGeographicalMan

Ex Member

Re: London Blasts - Using 0870 as Emergency Number
Reply #269 - Jul 14^th, 2005 at 4:02pm

Quote:

The reply I received was very abrupt and they basically told me to "go away

There is a very abrupt lady called Natalie Siege in charge of the contact centre who seems to be responsible for most of their anti customer and pro worker rights oriented culture. Needless to say she was originally employed by OFTEL!

The OFTEL Contact Centre set a standard in rudeness that even Ofcom has found it hard to keep up with.

I sometimes wonder if Matt Peacock has ever visited the Contact Centre, even though he is of course the Communications Director. Shocked

Back to top

IP Logged