SAYNOTO0870.COM - FOI response

idb

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FOI response - Highways Agency
Jul 14^th, 2005 at 2:38pm

First response, requesting an extension to examine 'public interest' test. Clearly trying to get out of this one. One of the reply's CC recipients is the law firm DentonWildeSapte.

>>

Freedom of Information Request Extension of time – public interest test

I am writing to advise you that the time-limit for responding to your request for information which the Department received on 20th June 2005 needs to be extended.

It is occasionally necessary to extend the 20 working day time limit for issuing a response. In the case of your request, I must extend the time limit by approximately 12 days because the information requested must be considered under one of the exemptions to which the public interest test applies. This extra time is needed in order to make a determination as to the public interest.

I hope to let you have a response by 27th July 2005. If you do not receive my response or further information by then, please contact me and I will investigate the matter.

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bbb_uk Global Moderator Offline Posts: 2,041	Re: FOI response - Highways Agency Reply #1 - Jul 14^th, 2005 at 7:33pm I hope they don't use the same solicitors that BBC used as we wont get anywhere.
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idb

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Re: FOI response - Highways Agency
Reply #2 - Jul 27^th, 2005 at 2:39pm

Quote:

I hope to let you have a response by 27th July 2005. If you do not receive my response or further information by then, please contact me and I will investigate the matter.

And, of course, the HA has failed to respond today, although technically it has a few more hours to go. Yet another appeal to the IC is now imminent.

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idb

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Re: FOI response - Highways Agency
Reply #3 - Jul 27^th, 2005 at 3:16pm

Looks like I was premature with my criticism - the FOI response has now been provided. As it is a seven page pdf and looks like it has been scanned, I cannot extract the text. I will put it through an OCR scan and see what happens.

In summary, the HA has revealed the geographic numbers to its 0845 and, to some extent, its 0870 numbers. It claims that COI guidance has, in the main, been followed. It claims that NGNs were used so that people from outside Birmingham wouldn't be disadvantaged by call costs (now where have I heard that one before...). It is withholding (section 43(2)) the figures relating to the revenue generated by one number due to commercial reasons. It receives no revenue (at least directly) from the other numbers.

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« Last Edit: Jul 27^th, 2005 at 3:55pm by idb »

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idb Supreme Member Offline Posts: 1,499 Miami, Florida, United States Gender:	Re: FOI response - Highways Agency Reply #4 - Jul 27^th, 2005 at 3:55pm Numbers are: HAIL (Highways Agency Information Line) 08457 50 40 30 = 0121 625 0058 Switchboard 08459 55 65 75 = 0121 678 8000 Traffic England IVR 08700 660 115 = 0121 625 0058 (use HAIL) Publications Line 08701 226 236 = 0121 625 0058 (use HAIL) Dave is adding the numbers to the database.
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Dave

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Re: FOI response - Highways Agency
Reply #5 - Jul 27^th, 2005 at 4:12pm

I've added the switchboard and information line numbers. However, the information line just refers to the 0870 for traffic info.

There must be a real geographical one for this, mustn't there? Same goes for the publications line.

Just noticed there is an entry in the database for Traffic England (0870 0660115). It is 0121 2454691

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« Last Edit: Jul 27^th, 2005 at 4:17pm by Dave »

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idb

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Re: FOI response - Highways Agency
Reply #6 - Jul 27^th, 2005 at 4:17pm

Quote:

I've added the switchboard and information line numbers. However, the information line just refers to the 0870 for traffic info.

There must be a real geographical one for this, mustn't there? Same goes for the publications line.

I'm inclined to agree, but need to look into this a little further before deciding whether to request a review.

Traffic England IVR is operated by TiS Ltd on behalf of the HA.

Publications Line is contracted out to Two-Ten Communications Ltd through an over-arching agreement with the Office of the Two Jags (ODPM).

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« Last Edit: Jul 27^th, 2005 at 4:20pm by idb »

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NonGeographicalMan

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Re: FOI response - Highways Agency
Reply #7 - Jul 30^th, 2005 at 2:13am

I think the point of all this is that when the government departments went for this 0845 and 0870 scam they thought they could get away with it and the public wouldn't notice but events have shown we do notice and they can't get away with it. So government departments and agencies at least will have to desist from any more of this in the future.

As for the Easyjets of the world and their £1 a minute advice lines the only way to deal with them is not to buy their shoddy product.

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idb

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Re: FOI response - Highways Agency
Reply #8 - Jul 30^th, 2005 at 2:21am

Quote:

I think the point of all this is that when the government departments went for this 0845 and 0870 scam they thought they could get away with it [...]

..and they would have got away with it until the FOIA became available. Do you think these agencies would have revealed the geographic numbers without FOIA? No chance. The FOIA is the best thing that could have happened wrt 0870 and government.

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NonGeographicalMan

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Re: FOI response - Highways Agency
Reply #9 - Jul 30^th, 2005 at 2:38am

Quote:

..and they would have got away with it until the FOIA became available. Do you think these agencies would have revealed the geographic numbers without FOIA? No chance. The FOIA is the best thing that could have happened wrt 0870 and government.

There is also a massive head of steam building up against it now anyway though due to the cost of 01 and 02 calls and/or all inclusive monthly packages to these numbers now having fallen so low while 0870 and 0845 remain as high as ever. Also the increase use of mobiles and the scamming to these numbers on mobiles is another issue.

Don't forget that most of the alternative phone numbers on this site have been obtained without the use of the FOI. The FOI just puts some icing on the cake on a snowball that was already rolling faster and faster down the hill.

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idb

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Re: FOI response - Highways Agency
Reply #10 - Jul 30^th, 2005 at 2:44am

Quote:

Don't forget that most of the alternative phone numbers on this site have been obtained without the use of the FOI.

That may be true, however have the agencies revealed the numbers themselves or were the numbers simply known about? I suspect the latter. In my battle with the DVLA, it simply refused to give me the number, even though I knew what it was, and it was in the database here. I submitted FOI request on Jan 1, and twenty days later it gave me the number. No FOIA, no number. I *needed* the DVLA to acknowledge the existence of a geographic number. I needed it to acknowledge the difficulty faced by calling from overseas. It did both. Its answers have meant that I can approach any government agency and expect a similar response. Whilst the HO/IND are holding out, they really are going to have to comply at some stage. It may take many more weeks or months, but it's going to happen!

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idb

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Re: FOI response - Highways Agency
Reply #11 - Sep 29^th, 2005 at 8:44pm

Here is the internal review response from the Highways Agency, received on September 9, 2005. The reply was a poorly scanned pdf, so I have had to scan and put through an OCR so there may be odd punctuation and formatting problems. My appeal to the Information Commissioner was submitted this afternoon.

<<
FOI INTERNAL REVIEW

I have now undertaken a review of the points you specifically asked us to review, as laid out in the letter of 19 August 05 and I am now in a position to respond, I am responding in my position as Board Director in the Highways Agency, following the stage 1 being completed by Mr Carter.

I would advise you as follows:

1. Geographic Number Equivalents

1(a) Traffic England Interactive Voice Recognition (IVR) Telephone Service 08700 660 115

I apologise that when you rang our HAIL service they mistakenly connected you to the National Rail Enquiries Line. The operators have been advised not to connect any caller, to other lines but you will be able to enquire about our network roads through the HAIL service.

In our initial reply to you we provided the geographic number equivalent for the HAIL service to enable you as a caller from outside the UK to access this service.

Having given careful consideration to your request we regret that we are unable to disclose the geographic number equivalent for the Traffic England IVR Telephone Service. In reaching this decision and bearing in mind the comments made above we have taken the following factors into account:

1. The Service is operated by a Private Limited Company "TiS" (Traffic Information Services Ltd. ) Public disclosure of the number could adversely affect the revenue stream to this company.

2. As a consequence of the above the relationship between the Agency and one of its contractors could be seriously affected and other companies in future may be deterred from entering into contracts with the Agency if commercially sensitive information is made public.

3. Prior to launching the service the Agency received legal advice that prompted us to instruct TiS to use an 0870 number„ The aim of this is to recover the costs of providing the service to defend against a possible challenge under

the Competition Act 1998 (by virtue of subsidising a service in a commercial environment where the same options are not generally open to private enterprise). Publication of this number could expose the Agency to a legal challenge under the Competition Act 1998.

4. The same information that is disseminated on the IVR telephone service is available from the Traffic England website: www.highways.gov.uk/trafficinfo

This information is being withheld as it falls under the exemption in section s43(2) of the Freedom of Information Act, in that disclosure would prejudice the commercial interest of our service providers and the Highways Agency.

continued...

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idb

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Re: FOI response - Highways Agency
Reply #12 - Sep 29^th, 2005 at 8:47pm

...

1(b) Highways Agency Publications Line 08741 226 236

In our initial reply we advised you that you could arrange to be supplied with any literature published by the Agency using the HAIL service, and we supplied the geographical number to allow you to access this service from outside the UK.

Alternatively any Agency publications can be obtained by making a request via email to: highwaysagency@twoten.press.net

Again, following careful consideration to your request we regret that we are unable to disclose the geographic number equivalent for the Publications Line„

In reaching this decision and bearing in mind the comments made above we have taken the following factors into account:

1. The publications line service for the Highways Agency is provided through a contract with the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister (ODPM) and Two-Ten Communications Ltd. This number is a dedicated line used to provide a service to the Department for Transport (DfT), Planning Inspectorate and ODPM.

2. The 0870 number is used because it is transferable and should the contract with Two-Ten Communication end, the Government Departments via the ODPM contract would be able to use the same number, thus providing continuity of service for customers.

3. In the event of a geographical equivalent being used, the number would become invalid upon termination of the contract with Two-Ten Communications Ltd.

4. The 0870 number is also part of Two-Ten disaster recovery plans, which is a requirement of the contract. Using this number enables operations to be transferred to another site else where in the country should the current building become disabled in some way.

2. Central Office of Information Guidance

I can confirm that in accordance with your request we have looked again at the guidelines offered by the COI along with other advice we have received from our legal advisors on the use of 0870 numbers.

Accordingly I must advise you that we are content that we are currently operating within that guidance and legal constraints referred to previously in our initial response to you.

In your last email requesting the internal review, you rightly point out the current tariffs operated by British Telecom who are predominant in the fixed line market. You will similarly be aware that NTL and Telewest also operate in this segment both of whom use calling plans but at different rates to BT. Additionally, you will be aware that there are numerous primary and virtual mobile network providers all with different charging and pricing structures.

It should be noted that in the case of the IVR Telephone Service, the main driver for the use of 0870 number as outlined above and in our first response to you was to defend any action brought under the Competition Act 1998.

Finally, in the case of both numbers we maintain that it would not be reasonable for the general public to be expected to cover the cost of those who choose to telephone the Agency to seek advice that is already in the public domain. We also adhere to the COI guidelines in making this information available through other sources, namely websites and via post.

If you are not content with the outcome of this internal review, you have the right to apply directly to the Information Commissioner for a decision.

[end]

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NonGeographicalMan

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Re: FOI response - Highways Agency
Reply #13 - Sep 29^th, 2005 at 9:14pm

Quote:

3. Prior to launching the service the Agency received legal advice that prompted us to instruct TiS to use an 0870 number„ The aim of this is to recover the costs of providing the service to defend against a possible challenge under the Competition Act 1998 (by virtue of subsidising a service in a commercial environment where the same options are not generally open to private enterprise). Publication of this number could expose the Agency to a legal challenge under the Competition Act 1998.

Well you have to give them some marks for presenting a novel excuse for the scamming. That is they claim that because other people in the industry are in the habit of scamming for this service they might then make a complaint about the Highways Agency not scamming and undermining their scamming businesses. Of course I sincerely hope that the Information Commissioner will rule in your favour. As neither they or there competitors are using official premium rate lines designed for the purpose they outline they will surely lose.

As for the service with Two Ten what total hokum to claim they can't give you the geographic number just in case they ever change the service provider. In that case who would be the loser? Only you surely by reaching an unobtainable tone and then having to submit a new FOI to obtain the new geographic number.

I suppose the only thing learned from all this is that my own cynically gritty view of the seemy underbelly of life is confirmed and that most of this nasty scamming is with the active connivance and participation of Tony Blair's new Labour apparatus. It is in no way the result of naive ignorance by these government departments although I suppose the disgusting answers offered may have come from the lawyers of their telecoms service providers.

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