SAYNOTO0870.COM - NHS Patientline 49p per minute Ofcom Investigation

bbb_uk

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Re: NHS Patientline 49p per minute Ofcom Investiga
Reply #255 - Jan 22^nd, 2006 at 9:34pm

pw4 wrote on Jan 21^st, 2006 at 10:36pm:

bbb_uk wrote on Dec 31^st, 2005 at 12:19pm:

I think the so-called 1 hour free is only when you pay the £3.50 you get it for 24 hours (23 hours is paid for with the remainder 1 hour free). The many times I've visited people in hospital they have never got their free 1hour TV assuming you haven't paid for the TV. I rung them over this once and was informed you pay for 23hours and get 1 hour free.

With Patientline it's the other way round - you get the hour of free TV only if you're not paying for TV.

I was referring to Patientline. I complained to them about the so-called free 1 hour and thats when I was informed you pay for 23 hours and get 1 hour free.

pw4 wrote on Jan 21^st, 2006 at 10:36pm:

bbb_uk wrote on Dec 31^st, 2005 at 12:19pm:

I know it would cost Patientline to display that free TV channel to the bedside in running costs, etc but this is likely to be low compared to the over £100 it costs the patients a month in having a few TV channels (most of which are free).

It actually costs a lot less than £100 per month for TV.

Sorry, did I miss something? £3.50 * 29 days is slightly over £100. Obviously a month like February it will cost slightly less. Basically though, there is a big difference between £100+ a month in hospital and slightly over £21 for a lot more channels on Sky/Cable. Then of course you have the expensive incoming calls and outgoing calls on top.

If they aren't trying to purposely rip-off their consumers then why choose a 07 number which can easily be confused with a mobile number? Simple. They know there would be more complaints if they used a 09x number (even if it costs the same as it does now) simply because more consumers are aware that 09x numbers are expensive and that revenue sharing exists. Patientline have purposely used a 070 to try their best to hide the costs and revenue sharing that is involved and not to mention to avoid ICSTIS regulations which are there for our protection.

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« Last Edit: Jan 22^nd, 2006 at 9:40pm by bbb_uk »

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NonGeographicalMan

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Re: NHS Patientline 49p per minute Ofcom Investiga
Reply #256 - Jan 22^nd, 2006 at 9:39pm

bbb_uk wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2006 at 9:34pm:

Basically though, there is a big difference between £100+ a month in hospital and slightly over £21 for a lot more channels on Sky/Cable.

My non subscription Sky Digibox seems to deliver a rather extensive range of channels for no pounds per month. If I did subscribe I think only two out of 6 Sky Mixes at only £15 per month would probably be adequate for most of my needs.

I wonder if Patientline or Premier have a discount rate for long term patients that pw4 is now suddenly going to tell us about? Wink

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bbb_uk

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Re: NHS Patientline 49p per minute Ofcom Investiga
Reply #257 - Jan 22^nd, 2006 at 9:49pm

Quote:

I wonder if Patientline or Premier have a discount rate for long term patients that pw4 is now suddenly going to tell us about? Wink

Checking PatientLines website here where it reads, "Additional concessions are available for long stay patients."

That's all it says though. No price indication at all. The main problem with this is that you would need to know that you were definitely going to be in hospital for a long period. In hospitals because they are always desperate to get rid off you if they can (in some cases whether you are well or not), you may get kicked out a lot sooner than expected.

PW4 - do you have any idea more of an idea of this concession on long-stay patients.

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« Last Edit: Jan 22^nd, 2006 at 9:49pm by bbb_uk »

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NonGeographicalMan

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Re: NHS Patientline 49p per minute Ofcom Investiga
Reply #258 - Jan 22^nd, 2006 at 10:07pm

A Google reveals:-

www.ucht.n-i.nhs.uk/index2.html

Quote:

"TV pricing, however, does vary across some hospitals. As examples, the older installations have the £3.50 rate described above, some have a rate of £3.20, whilst some of the more recent have a lower headline daily rate, but with no concessions for elderly and long stay patients. Experience indicates that in the latter group of sites, use of the system is reduced amongst the elderly population.

It is therefore proposed to standardise the charges for TV throughout the UK by the uniform application of the £3.50 daily rate, with half price concessions for elderly and long stay patients and the continued provision of free TV for the under 16’s".

The comments are on the Ulster & Community Hospitals website and are attributed to Derek Lewis, Chairman of Patientline.

So for Long Stay Patients it works out at £52.50 a month based on 30 days in the typical month. That's £630 per annum unless there is a further concession for ultra long stay. But nowhere on this site does "long stay" seem to be defined.

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« Last Edit: Jan 22^nd, 2006 at 10:09pm by N/A »

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pw4

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Re: NHS Patientline 49p per minute Ofcom Investiga
Reply #259 - Jan 22^nd, 2006 at 11:40pm

Quote:

Or is it published in its report and accounts then?

It's all to be found on Patientline's website, but some of it is in obscure places.

Quote:

The fact that Patientline is paying so much over the odds for this bedside equipment is clearly its problem and not mine. There is better value to be had in such technology if you do not use an inefficient bespoke design. And surely such systems must be widely used in hospitals in the USA and elsewhere in western Europe.

The £2,000+ figure isn't the cost of the terminal, which I don't know but would speculate is somewhat less than half that. £2,000+ is the figure arrived at by dividing the typical cost of equipping a hospital - £1M - by the average number of terminals - about 497 - so includes everything required within the hospital, including labour, for a completed installation, not just the bedside terminals.
The terminals had to be designed and manufactured to spec, there were no combined TV/phone PC/terminals suitable for hospital wards in Europe or the USA at that time. There are now - but only in a handful of hospitals that have been fitted with Patientline systems.

Quote:

The fact that you have not increased outgoing call costs from the bedside is nothing to be proud of when BT Payphone prices for making 01/02 calls have dropped through the floor in the same period and the cost of making an 01/02 call on a BT landline has dropped substantially for most BT customers.

Patientline's prices are nothing to do with me, obviously, but BT has run down its payphone business to a great extent, which it can afford to do because it is (now) a very small part of its total business, and because in most places it is not obliged to provide the service regardless of likely usage or lack thereof and can discontinue uneconomic kiosks. In hospitals that Patientline has equipped under the Patient Power Project the company is obliged to provide service at virtually all bedsides, including those that are likely to be little used such as acute geriatric, and those in children's wards where the TV is free, so the revenue from the other terminals must cover all of them.
Patientline's operations are very labour intensive compared with telecoms companies', and their finance repayment terms are not influenced by any amount of reductions in BT's call charges.

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pw4

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Re: NHS Patientline 49p per minute Ofcom Investiga
Reply #260 - Jan 23^rd, 2006 at 12:15am

bbb_uk wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2006 at 9:34pm:

I was referring to Patientline. I complained to them about the so-called free 1 hour and thats when I was informed you pay for 23 hours and get 1 hour free.

The TV cards are priced per day (or 3, or 5 or 7) so it makes no difference if you're paying for 24 hours or just 23 with one free. But patients who have registered but no TV card (and those who have not activated a 24 hour period of a TV charge card within the previous 24 hours) do get one hour of breakfast TV free. I don't understand the strange explanation you were offered.

Quote:

If they aren't trying to purposely rip-off their consumers then why choose a 07 number which can easily be confused with a mobile number? Simple. They know there would be more complaints if they used a 09x number (even if it costs the same as it does now) simply because more consumers are aware that 09x numbers are expensive and that revenue sharing exists. Patientline have purposely used a 070 to try their best to hide the costs and revenue sharing that is involved and not to mention to avoid ICSTIS regulations which are there for our protection.

That most people assume that any number beginning with 07 is a mobile is not Patientline's fault. Anyone who wants to use a PNS number must use 070 - that was Oftel's decision. That the use of PNS for DDI calls to hospital patients is acceptable was Ofcom's. To the best of my knowledge the charge is quoted with the numbers in all literature and web pages (though a larger font wouldn't go amiss) and is quoted as part of the long recorded message at the beginning of inbound calls.

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« Last Edit: Jan 23^rd, 2006 at 12:37am by pw4 »

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pw4

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Re: NHS Patientline 49p per minute Ofcom Investiga
Reply #261 - Jan 23^rd, 2006 at 12:34am

bbb_uk wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2006 at 9:49pm:

Quote:

I wonder if Patientline or Premier have a discount rate for long term patients that pw4 is now suddenly going to tell us about? Wink

Checking PatientLines website here where it reads, "Additional concessions are available for long stay patients."

That's all it says though. No price indication at all. The main problem with this is that you would need to know that you were definitely going to be in hospital for a long period. In hospitals because they are always desperate to get rid off you if they can (in some cases whether you are well or not), you may get kicked out a lot sooner than expected.

PW4 - do you have any idea more of an idea of this concession on long-stay patients.

Quote:

So for Long Stay Patients it works out at £52.50 a month based on 30 days in the typical month. That's £630 per annum unless there is a further concession for ultra long stay. But nowhere on this site does "long stay" seem to be defined.

I think long stay is anything over one week. But I'm not sure, I'll try to find out this week when I'm next at the hospital.
You don't need to know in advance how long your stay will be - clearly that would not be practical. The discount is automatically applied, and I think it's achieved by giving you double the number of days viewing remaining on your card and for subsequent cards. So, for example, if you bought seven days for £20 and have used only three of them within seven days of registering, you then have a further eight days remaining.

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« Last Edit: Jan 23^rd, 2006 at 12:39am by pw4 »

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NonGeographicalMan

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Re: NHS Patientline 49p per minute Ofcom Investiga
Reply #262 - Jan 23^rd, 2006 at 12:42am

pw4 wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2006 at 12:15am:

But patients who have not activated a 24 hour period of a TV charge card within the previous 24 hours do get one hour of breakfast TV free.

Let em watch breakfast free to lure them in and then cut them off after 1 hour so they will be suffering withdrawal symptoms. But don't let them watch up to 1 hour of their favourite evening tv programs if they don't watch at breakfast. Just how cynical can Patientline get.

Quote:

That most people assume that any number beginning with 07 is a mobile is not Patientline's fault. Anyone who wants to use a PNS number must use 070 - that was Oftel's decision.

Patientline could just as well have used an 09 number had 070 PNS with its convenient confusion with a mobile number not been available to it. Ofcom has commented several times that it is concerned that many 070 numbers are being used in an abusive manner. I note that Patientline was and is one of these with its failure to comply with the rule that calls go straight to the person to whom the number is assigned and that the final destination of the call is also under the control of that person. Patientline complied with neither of these things and even when DDI is finally introduced in all its hospitals I highly doubt the patient will be able to redirect the call outside hospital when they leave? Ipso Facto this is a bogus and dishonest use of 070 PNS of the worst kind and an 09 range should have been used. The only reason it was not was to cause the confusion with mobile phone prices and the assumption that the calls would be covered by cross network minutes. But of course the dumb patsies at Ofcom have just signed off the continuation of this abuse following orders received from their political masters at the Department of Health/Department of Culture/Downing Street.

For someone who claims to just be a hospital radio man you do seem to have a remarkable sympathy for the Patientline business case. Are you sure you don't also wear the hat of being Patientline director and/or major shareholder?

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trevord

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Re: NHS Patientline 49p per minute Ofcom Investiga
Reply #263 - Jan 23^rd, 2006 at 12:56am

pw4 wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2006 at 12:15am:

That most people assume that any number beginning with 07 is a mobile is not Patientline's fault. Anyone who wants to use a PNS number must use 070 - that was Oftel's decision. That the use of PNS for DDI calls to hospital patients is acceptable was Ofcom's.

But who initially proposed using a PNS number (which could co-incidentally be confused with a mobile number) - was it initially Patientline's or another service provider's request, or did Ofcom initiate the idea?

As I said in an earlier message:
trevord wrote on Jan 10^th, 2006 at 3:07pm:

... Patientline is not a true PNS ... the Patientline service merely directs the call to a particular fixed line phone, which is no different from a company switchboard with direct extension dialling - you just need to know the number of the relevant extension. So the Patientline-type service could be implemented by having a regular geo number of the format 01234 567xxx, where xxx is the extension number.

I accept that Ofcom approved this usage, but did Patientline or another service provider ask for it (with the possible confusion in mind)?

I also accept that the service provider [pw4 - I'm trying not to specifically blame Patientline!] is unlikely to have wanted to use a regular geo number becuase they need to recover some costs from the calls, but they could have used 0870 or 0871 or 09 numbers instead of 070 PNS numbers. I agree that the blame is partly Ofcom's for agreeing to this mis-use of PNS, but without knowing details of the initial proposals, I'm not sure that we can say that this is purely Ofcom's fault.

Anyway, Patientline could have chosen a lower PNS rate.
And, also I can't currently find it (and need to go to bed) I have a recollection of reading that some of the alternative service providers do use 087x numbers, which would suggest the choice of 070 was Patientline's not Ofcom's.

Quote:

To the best of my knowledge the charge ... is quoted as part of the long recorded message at the beginning of inbound calls.

So you're paying to listen to a long message telling you how expensive the call is - thus making it even more expensive - and, of course, by then you've already incurred, say, 50p - £1 of cost before you can even decide whether you're prepared to pay that much for the call!

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Dave Global Moderator Offline Posts: 9,902 Yorkshire Gender:	Re: NHS Patientline 49p per minute Ofcom Investiga Reply #264 - Jan 23^rd, 2006 at 1:03am Going back to this "get 1 hour free", how can you 'buy' 23 hours and then get 1 hour free? That would be the same as buying 24 hours, would it not? Oh, and are these 24 (or 23) consecutive hours? So in reality this is only of full benefit to insomniacs?
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trevord

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Re: NHS Patientline 49p per minute Ofcom Investiga
Reply #265 - Jan 23^rd, 2006 at 1:45pm

Dave wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2006 at 1:03am:

Going back to this "get 1 hour free", how can you 'buy' 23 hours and then get 1 hour free? That would be the same as buying 24 hours, would it not? Roll Eyes

I had thought of commentling along similar lines, but then looked at the Patientline website http://patientline.co.uk/yourservices.htm which says:
Quote:

Patientline's national pricing policy is £3.50 a day for TV, ...
All patients can enjoy 1 hour of free television each day ...

While not necessarily agreeing with their charging, I think this makes it fairly clear that you can watch the first hour free, but thereafter have to pay for "a day". It doesn't say you pay for 23 hours.

What isn't clear is:

whether the timing of the 'free hour' is resticted, e.g. to Breakfast TV as suggested in an earlier message;
when "a day" starts: is it a calendar day (midnight to midnight), which makes it a bit rough on people who only want to watch for, say 1.5 - 2 hours in the evening, especially if they have only just been admitted or come round from an operation; or is it 23/24h from when you pays your money?

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NonGeographicalMan

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Re: NHS Patientline 49p per minute Ofcom Investiga
Reply #266 - Jan 23^rd, 2006 at 2:01pm

trevord wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2006 at 1:45pm:

What isn't clear is:

whether the timing of the 'free hour' is resticted, e.g. to Breakfast TV as suggested in an earlier message;
when "a day" starts: is it a calendar day (midnight to midnight), which makes it a bit rough on people who only want to watch for, say 1.5 - 2 hours in the evening, especially if they have only just been admitted or come round from an operation; or is it 23/24h from when you pays your money?

From what I have gathered the Patientline tvs are all forcibly turned on in the morning when everyone wakes up for the one free hour of viewing and then as soon as the first hour of programming is over your telly goes off unless you pay for that day. If you do pay then it is forcibly turned on for the whole of the rest of the day and the only choice you have is about which channel it is on. So everyone gets the one hour in the morning free as that is not a one hour you can actually pay for. But as most people aren't desperate to watch Breakfast TV the idead that its free is all somewhat academic. Its obviously a way to blackmail you to pay up for the rest of the day.

As I fortunately have never so far had to use one of these devices in a hospital I stand to be corrected about these arrangements by those who actually have experience.

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trevord

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Re: NHS Patientline 49p per minute Ofcom Investiga
Reply #267 - Jan 23^rd, 2006 at 2:34pm

Quote:

From what I have gathered the Patientline tvs are all forcibly turned on in the morning when everyone wakes up for the one free hour of viewing and then as soon as the first hour of programming is over your telly goes off unless you pay for that day.

In that case, maybe their website is misleading:
Quote:

All patients can enjoy 1 hour of free television each day ...

especially as you may not enjoy the mandated free hour! Tongue

Quote:

As I fortunately have never so far had to use one of these devices in a hospital I stand to be corrected about these arrangements by those who actually have experience.

Ditto - and I hope neither you nor I have to, especially if your 'local' hospital is the same as mine, namely the poorly rated and much publicised East Surrey Hospital at Redhill. Cry

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NonGeographicalMan

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Re: NHS Patientline 49p per minute Ofcom Investiga
Reply #268 - Jan 23^rd, 2006 at 2:56pm

trevord wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2006 at 2:34pm:

Ditto - and I hope neither you nor I have to, especially if your 'local' hospital is the same as mine, namely the poorly rated and much publicised East Surrey Hospital at Redhill. Cry

Yes that would be the one.

I have no experience of the hospital myself but my sister recently had to take my 2 year old niece there on a Sunday to have her elbow popped back into place after my over enthusiastic 6 year old nephew dislocated it for her while pulling her up too rapidly from the floor while they were playing during a recent visit to my apartment. It does have a dedicated childrens facility and my niece came back with problem solved after only a short wait and clutching a small bear donated to the childrens unit in bulk by local freemasons. But no experience of the Patientline service gained in the childrens accident & emergency facility.

As to Patientline making it sound like the 1 hour free was one you could actually choose unfortunately congenital dishonesty and/or economy with the truth would be nothing new for the worlds marketing men. Presumably Patientline has figured that no one would pay to watch Breakfast tv when they are already busy having breakfast etc so they don't mind giving away that hour away free. If they gave away up to 1 hour's viewing of a patient's choice in the evening then hardly anyone would use the pay Patientline service at a whopping £3.50 per day. That's why the free 1 hour is only in the morning. Why not call Patientline on their 0800 sales number if you want to check this out.

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davis

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Re: NHS Patientline 49p per minute Ofcom Investiga
Reply #269 - Jan 23^rd, 2006 at 7:55pm

Just an aside-I did have to stay overnight in hospital recently. I was due to stay or 5 days and did not want to pay £17.50 for TV so took in my battery TV which I received free when I purchased a mobile phone. Worked a treat-received a few strange looks from the staff but nobody challanged me. I also noted that the number to contact Patienline to set up the contract was an 0870 number-well what would you expect.

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