SAYNOTO0870.COM - Hansard - NTS review outcome?

NonGeographicalMan

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Re: Hansard
Reply #15 - Jul 30^th, 2005 at 12:46pm

Quote:

Exactly right. Tks NGM - sorry, Saturday morning and not fully with it Embarrassed

Perhaps full free front-end announcent on all calls is the answer.

Or how about a voice announcement on all those calls except those starting 01 or 02 which are the only ones always actually charged at your telcos normal rates for national fixed line calls.

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PeDaSp

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Re: Hansard - NTS review outcome?
Reply #16 - Jul 30^th, 2005 at 1:04pm

NGM - yep - you're right with corps/gov wanting to move us all over to the web as much as possible. As this can save them SO much money.

Remember - you NEVER talk to a corp or gov for FREE. YOU will be PAYING for it either through increased prices or taxes. Even if you're dialing a 0800 number.

Easyjet are a good example - but I think that their strategy is spot-on. I've been to a couple of talks where Stelios has been very candid about their phone charges:

He said that they charge £1 a min for technical advice on how to use their website as he found that they were effectively running an IT support service!!! Users would ring up with all sorts of problems such as my printer doesn't work and my browser keeps crashing! If folks don't know how to use the Easyjet website then they should be paying Easyjet for IT instruction.

Why should I pay more on my ticket for customers who can't be fagged to learn how to use their computer properly??

He said this was similar to when he started Easycar. They spent all their time washing the cars! He realised that he wasn't in the car rental business - he was in the car washing business! Hence his move to charge if you brought the car back dirty.

Easy Group spend a fortune making their websites easy to use and navigate. This saves them millions in call centre costs and enables them to give flights at the daft prices they do (if you book a good time in advance). They have even automated their check-in desks.

If you don't have access to the web and/or you don't/can't be bothered to read their websites fully or learn how to use them - then why should they not charge you a premium rate for wanting to speak to a human? Even if I do a rough calculation on the back of an envelope I can easily see that when you factor in ALL the costs: rent, rates, lighting, IT, wages, management etc.. for running a call centre that they will still be loosing money when they charge £1 a min.

I know many people who do have web access - but given half a chance they will call an operator; either because they can't be fagged to read the webpage, or because they still think that giving their CC to a website is not as safe as giving it to an Albanian waiter.

Stelios is also quite open about the fact that there will be a small percentage of customers who prefer to pay BA £250 for a flight to Paris rather than £50 to Easyjet because the don't want to use the web or call a premium rate line. But that's his business model - and he makes more than BA!

I'm afraid that I don't agree that Easyjet is selling a "bad" product to a "dumb" public. They have revolutionized the air travel business in Europe and made millions for their shareholders (ie: your pension fund).

Yes - I know of people who have had a bad experience with them - but they still keep flying with them!!! I'll be booking my Jan 06 skiing trip soon - and I'll pay just 29.50 to fly to Geneva inc all taxes etc...!!! And they are very clear about their phone charges.

But I do agree with the thrust of your argument in certain circumstances. Where a product is sold via the web; and where price competition in intense, then I can see premium rate call charging remaining.

What I hate about 0845/70 etc... is that it is underhand and deceitful. Easyjet say: "if you want to call us it will cost you £1 a minute. If you don't like that then piss-off and fly BA at 5 times the cost".

...I don't have a problem with that!

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NonGeographicalMan

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Re: Hansard - NTS review outcome?
Reply #17 - Jul 30^th, 2005 at 1:29pm

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What I hate about 0845/70 etc... is that it is underhand and deceitful. Easyjet say: "if you want to call us it will cost you £1 a minute. If you don't like that then piss-off and fly BA at 5 times the cost".

If you want to fly from a London Airport to Palma, Mallorca (PMI) for a few days any time in the next 3 weeks or so, as I want to do to spend some time on holiday with my 6 year old nephew and 1 year old niece, you will find that BA is no more expensive and frequently cheaper than Easyjet on most possible date combinations. The charter airlines are also cheaper than Easyjet. Also BMI had some fares as low as 20 quid a few months ago, lower than Easyjet

Being asked to pay 350quid for a return to Mallorca with Lousyjet is a total outrage and no it wasn't possible for me to book that fare 6 months ago. If I want to get in my car to go to Cornwall in 2 hours time it costs exactly the same as if I had decided to go 6 months ago. That is the pricing system I prefer.

I have taken something like 7 return flights with Easyjet back since 1997 and my experiences of their rude Butlins mentality ground staff and cabin crew have all been so bad that I go out of my way not to fly with them. I would even rather fly with Swiss Airlines via Geneva or Zurich to Palma than pay more or less the same fare to fly with rude nasty and exclude you from the flight when they can Easyjet.

And god help you if you have a customer service issue to resolve with Lousyjet after you have flown. Basically there philosophy is that we will ignore your letter. Action is only taken if you either go to a national consumer affairs program or if you go the lobby of Easyland at Luton Airport on your return home and refuse to budge until they have fielded someone in management to talk to you.

As to all your comments about Stelios the man hasn't been involved in runing the company for well over a couple of years now - he is just a shareholder. The company is now run by former senior BA staff who have sold their souls to the devil.

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PeDaSp

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Re: Hansard - NTS review outcome?
Reply #18 - Jul 30^th, 2005 at 4:12pm

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you will find that BA is no more expensive and frequently cheaper than Easyjet on most possible date combinations. The charter airlines are also cheaper than Easyjet. Also BMI had some fares as low as 20 quid a few months ago, lower than Easyjet

Yep - great thing capitalism eh? Remember BA prices BEFORE Easyjet?? They've been forced to compete, and often offer the same/better prices then Easyjet - and even better service.

But do they makes as much money per shareholder pound invested? NOPE. You might fly BA - but you'd be better off investing in Easyjet!

Quote:

I want to get in my car to go to Cornwall in 2 hours time it costs exactly the same as if I had decided to go 6 months ago. That is the pricing system I prefer.

Easyjet has one of the highest percentage of filled seats in the airline industry as it has "leveraged asset management". If you have time and flexibility you pay less then if you are a business person who wants to book at the last moment. Some people like it - and some don't. But it gives the consumer CHOICE.

Quote:

my experiences of their rude Butlins mentality ground staff and cabin crew have all been so bad that I go out of my way not to fly with them.

Fair enough - but I don't care tupense (or rather I do!!!). I expect my mum, girlfriend and dog to be nice to me. I don't fly to make friends - just to get from A to B. Give me a cheap price any day.

In countless surveys passengers state that they will pay MORE for good service. But in PRACTICE they want the cheapest price 99% of the time.

Quote:

And god help you if you have a customer service issue to resolve with Lousyjet after you have flown.

Agree 100%. Ryanair are even worse apparently! Best to vote with your feet like you have done - or just issue a County Count Summons on the web - takes 5 mins. This jumps you right to the top of the queue and starts to cost them serious money - they settle 95% of the time - if you are within your rights and you've read the contract (and it's not deemed unfair).

Quote:

Stelios the man hasn't been involved in runing the company for well over a couple of years now

Yep - but he set it all up; and he still advises them.

Respect to you NGM. You have made a consumer CHOICE and voted with your feet. You are not the only one.

I am an ardent capitalist! I heard the mad head of Ryanair (the folks who charged the guy for a wheelchair Sad

) considered charging people £1 for use of the toilets on Ryanair flights!!! Even Mrs T would be shocked!!!

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« Last Edit: Jul 30^th, 2005 at 4:14pm by PeDaSp »

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dorf

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Re: Hansard - NTS review outcome?
Reply #19 - Jul 30^th, 2005 at 11:37pm

That really is not the way that these things have happened. The reality at the base of this issue is that previously (perhaps it is so far in the past now that many of those younger never even experienced it during their conscious adult lifetimes, from the comments so far on this thread) British companies used to provide service. They understood and acknowledged that the customer was the source of all their revenue and all their profits, just like the Americans still do!

Then along came increasing intense Socialism. This gradually began to distort real economic and commercial values. Companies which in the past had been successful found that they could no longer honestly compete on a level playing field, because all of their costs (particularly unskilled labour costs, with direct employee-related escalating taxes) increased rapidly out of their control. As globalisation increased they were even more unable to compete with areas in the world having relatively low tax overheads. As a direct result many of the traditional, previously successful, types of commercial activities became completely unprofitable, and many previously successful enterprises went to the wall.

Those still attempting to run or commence new enterprises in the UK realised that the only remaining commercial opportunities here were mostly to attempt to tap relatively dumb people with the redistributed disposable income via retail sectors. (Napoleon is credited with having stated that England was a nation of shopkeepers!) As a result competition in these areas increased savagely. It quickly got to the point where because of the level of intense competition there were too many retail commercial operations attempting to address a fixed retail market with a limited disposable value. New marketing and sales techniques were thus thought up to defeat the intense competition. The key ones were confusion marketing and deceit (scamming).

The dirty commercial tricks of BT offered such companies an ideal opportunity for scamming these dumb consumers, so as to offload many of the overhead costs which had previously been borne by companies in servicing their customers. (For example it had always cost companies money to talk to their customers on the telephone, but particularly when it was to sort out errors which the company had made or failures of the company's products this had been in the past accounted for as an overhead cost and as a cost-centre.)

Harnessing the tricks offered by BT gave unscrupulous companies like Easyjet and Ryanair the opportunity to scam their dumb customers by shifting those costs previously borne as overheads directly to their customers, most of whom initially had no idea of what was going on. This technique of confusion marketing appeared to give those companies an edge, because to dumb consumers who could not work out the algebraic realities they seemed to be "cheaper" than their competitors. In many cases the "HONEST" competitors could not then survive since they lost the business which was gained by the "DISHONEST" companies. So the companies like Easyjet and Ryanair seemed to prosper, offering less and less value whilst their honest competitors failed.

It really is important to understand these economic and business realities, because this is what is at the base of this scam with non-09 NGNs with call queuing, and what has caused it to proliferate.

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mc661

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Re: Hansard - NTS review outcome?
Reply #20 - Jul 31^st, 2005 at 4:00am

I will never fly LyinAir cos of there hidden extra extras and ridculus monkey customer 'service'.
Same with SleazyJet, its a lot easier to get stuff back of them, if you claim thru moneyclaimonline.

I want to go to amsterdam in september, its already cheaper for me to go to an airport miles away from me (including train fare to the miles away airport), and then fly with KLM with an unrestricted ticket, unlimited changes, refunds, etc etc. Sleazyjet starting to charge almost double the price now and are all non refundable.

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NonGeographicalMan

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Re: Hansard - NTS review outcome?
Reply #21 - Jul 31^st, 2005 at 9:28am

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Sleazyjet starting to charge almost double the price now and are all non refundable.

Of course Lousyjet will say but you can change to another flight sir for only £10 per leg.

But when Lousyjet charge fares of up to £199 single from LGW to PMI or PMI to LGW a couple of weeks before travel and you have to pay the difference to the new higher fare you change to this right to change is non existent.

Lousyjet now have a complete stranglehold over the scheduled LON to PMI route and BMI and BA only have one flight a day each compared to Easyjet's 6 flights a day from the 3 London Airports.

The result is that Lousyjet fares are now sky high at almost any popular period. On principle I would never pay more than 150GBP including all taxes to take a return flight to PMI with Lousyjet but their return fares are now as high as 400GBP. This year even the charter airlines are joining the August stitch up from LON to PMI and are trying to charge 250GBP return for a last minute ticket. They also charge a £20 fuel surcharge when the extra cost of the fuel on this route is undoubtedly no more than £10.

With Lousyjet you scrum for a seat, there is no information if the flight is delayed and the flight is often closed at check in one or two minutes before the official closure time and there is then a blanket refusal to try and get you on it (unlike BA, BMI, Swiss Airlines etc who will always get you on the flight as long as you can get to the gate before the flight departs). Also the staff at Lousyjet are rude and the sandwiches are always sold out.

But apparently some people wear rose tinted spectacles and travel on an altogether different airline from the one that I always seem to encounter.

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dorf

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Re: Hansard - NTS review outcome?
Reply #22 - Jul 31^st, 2005 at 5:06pm

Yep I have exactly the same impression NGM.

However, I must admit that I am flying off to Spain with Ryanair this year, purely because I managed to book the flights soon enough to get a return fair of less than £40 per person in August. I have only once flown with them before and I look at the whole process as transport of Livestock. I attempt to have a few drinks before boarding to dull the pain and then cease being human for the duration; once having fought for a seat to sit in I hybernate until landing has been accomplished at the end of the journey. Then upon disembarking I revert to humanity.

It really is not a pleasant experience, but if you do not need to change your flight or query anything (so avoiding paying the premium for telephoning them) and if you can accept being transported as Livestock, if you book early enough it can be relatively cheap as mine is. I am spending what I save on an AI holiday.

The one and only time I ever flew on Easyjet it actually cost me £40 more than the equivalent charter flight but without booked seats and an in-flight meal and free drinks etc. The problem was I had left it too late booking and there was no capacity left on charter flights! That one experience was enough for a lifetime!

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Ofcom are completely ineffectual

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NonGeographicalMan

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Re: Hansard - NTS review outcome?
Reply #23 - Jul 31^st, 2005 at 6:38pm

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The one and only time I ever flew on Easyjet it actually cost me £40 more than the equivalent charter flight but without booked seats and an in-flight meal and free drinks etc. The problem was I had left it too late booking and there was no capacity left on charter flights! That one experience was enough for a lifetime!

I should have made clear that it is Easyjet that incurs my particular displeasure as their in flight service is as atrocious as Ryanair but unlike Ryanair they don't have any low fares worth talking about.

The Ryanair system is that up to 2 weeks before departure they have cheap flights on any day where the flight is undersold to try and fill it up but at 2 weeks they stick all the remaining tickets up to enormously high level on the basis that they think anyone booking this late must be a businessman.

I travelled Ryanair to Sardinia for 70 quid 3 years ago and was happy with the experience and I nearly travelled with them to Palermo for only 16 quid (including all taxes) and would have been very happy except that I arrived 38.5 minutes before the departure of the flight and was excluded when as far as I knew checkin still closed 30 minutes before the flight (back in June 2003 and no it wasn't on the confirmation email I printed out). They wanted 40quid extra to go 24 hours later but I was only due to go for 3 days and the ridiculous thing was they could have got me on the flight they wouldn't let me on. The net result was that I spent an hour arguing with them and did not rebook for the next day. Result miserable customer who no longer travels with Ryanair.

I arrived at Heathrow for a flight to Geneva a year ago with Swissair only 22 minutes before the flight due to massive hold ups on the tube near Hammersmith. They gave me a boarding pass but didn't check my bag in and told me to run for it. I arrived at the gate with my bag 11 minutes before flight time and boarded ahead of a number of other passengers (I admittedly had to employ rather drastic queue jumping tactics at security and passport control).

In view of the abysmal level of service and everything costing extra I avoid both these carriers like the plague wherever possible. But of the two Ryanair seem more worth bothering with than Lousyjet who do not even have any cheap fares.

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dorf Supreme Member Offline I hate Qs on Premium NGNs Posts: 575 UK Gender:	Re: Hansard - NTS review outcome? Reply #24 - Jul 31^st, 2005 at 8:39pm I really like these coined names "Lyinair", "Sleasyjet" and "Lousyjet". They really are so appropriate!
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NonGeographicalMan Ex Member	Re: Hansard - NTS review outcome? Reply #25 - Jul 31^st, 2005 at 9:12pm Quote: I really like these coined names "Lyinair", "Sleasyjey" and "Lousyjet". They really are so appropriate! Amazingly no one even seems to have registered www.lousyjet.com or www.lousyjet.co.uk You would have thought Lousyjet might have done to try and head off the inevitable!
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PeDaSp

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Re: Hansard - NTS review outcome?
Reply #26 - Jul 31^st, 2005 at 10:41pm

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That really is not the way that these things have happened. The reality at the base of this issue is that previously (perhaps it is so far in the past now that many of those younger never even experienced it during their conscious adult lifetimes, from the comments so far on this thread) British companies used to provide service. They understood and acknowledged that the customer was the source of all their revenue and all their profits, just like the Americans still do!

...er I'm 45 and I'm old enough to remember all this "service":

The old British Telecom - they were great! 3-6 months to install a phone and £2 (adjusted price to 2005) per min to call the USA.

British Gas - lovely! Round to fix your boiler in less then 2 weeks.

British Leyland cars - never broke down; nearly 100% reliability.

British Coal - wonderful hardworking employees - never went on strike.

British Airways - cheap flights anywhere in the world and wonderful cabin staff.

Plus I remember all the wonderful cappuccinos you could buy in your local coffee shop - all that's gone now with Starbucks.

And who can forget all those fantastic restaurants with their 3 stars and gourmet food.

Ah! Those were the days!!

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omy Full Member Offline I came - I saw - I went home. Posts: 129	Re: Hansard - NTS review outcome? Reply #27 - Aug 1^st, 2005 at 1:47am Is it just me - or has this thread gone so far off the topic that we will need Ryanair to get us back anyway? The 'topic' is "Hansard - NTS Reviews", I seem to recall, but we have developed into a travelsite forum!!?? ps I used to fly Dakotas - now THOSE were the days!
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mc661 Senior Member Offline Habitual FOI requester. Posts: 432 West-Norfolk Gender:	Re: Hansard - NTS review outcome? Reply #28 - Aug 1^st, 2005 at 4:48am Quote: ps I used to fly Dakotas - now THOSE were the days! what about TWA!!! or even Laker airlines!
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NonGeographicalMan

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Re: Hansard - NTS review outcome?
Reply #29 - Aug 1^st, 2005 at 6:43am

Quote:

Is it just me - or has this thread gone so far off the topic that we will need Ryanair to get us back anyway?
The 'topic' is "Hansard - NTS Reviews", I seem to recall, but we have developed into a travelsite forum!!??

ps I used to fly Dakotas - now THOSE were the days!

Dave seems to be on holiday and as the old saying goes "while the cat is away the mice will play". Personally I don't believe in all this topic fascism stuff. If you were down at the pub you would be allowed to discuss Hansard one minute and then Ryanair and Easyjet the next.

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