Quote:

And Dan Air - they were the first to use that horrible modern cliché, "Let's not go there."

Don't you mean Dan Dare?
Where has my childhood gone??
(Note the subtle switch of topic again!)

Hi PeDaSp,

Of course I was not suggesting that things were perfect in every way prior to the emergence of the new type of exploiting retail business model. That would of course be impossible with any human beings involved. There have always been failings in our country and in our economy. My post did not claim nor was about "life was much better in those days..."! My point was (trying to stick to some semblance of the topic here) that the resulting intense competition due to concentration on the retail sector and the increasing exclusion of others resulted in an unscrupulous re-orientation of business, including a desire to deceive customers, so as to fool them into believing that a company's price (and implied value) was the best available.

Despite all the failings which as you rightly observe did exist in our country and economy, these in the main were not about deliberate exploitation by attempting to fool customers. They were in the main due to amateur and ineffective management of UK companies, and that does not seem to have improved too much if at all? None of the failings which you list are in the category of deliberately attempting to fool and exploit customers, in my view.

Therefore these scams with non-09 revenue generating NGNs and call queuing are an integral part of these changed moral attitudes of retail business. These companies really do not care what depths they go to to fool and exploit their customers. (The increasing dependence on "small print" is another example.) This is the basis of the 0800 for sales calls, 0870 or 0871 or even 070PNS for "if we have made a mistake", "if our rubbish product has failed", "if the product you paid for has not been delivered or is damaged" or "if there is any other problem" model. 

Taking a Lyinair flight with a fellow passenger Dan (D)Air back to the topic, I believe that due to the proliferation of this scam with NGNs in this way many companies are now so dependent on the revenue from this racket in their exploitive buisiness model that they are fighting extremely hard against any change in the current NTS structure; as is also the government. Ofcom are controlled by the government and whatever appears in Hansard is really going to make little difference to the outcome, which I believe is already set and was even prior to the last "consultation". That will be no effective change in NTS.

[At the risk of drifting from the topic I have realised that I must admit that Lyinair have got one thing right, much as I regret having to say so! Their web site is one of the best operationally that I have ever used, for booking. It works in a stable and consistent manner, without mandating cookies, is compatible with most browsers and never seems to hiccup. Very unusual in my experience and worthy of praise.]

Hi NGM, but doesn't the Lousyjet site mandate cookies? I don't think you can book on there without them?

I am afraid the mandating of cookies is another hobby horse of mine, so I must not get started or I will definitely go off topic!

To get back on topic I don't think Hansard mandates cookies?

Also from parliament:

http://edmi.parliament.uk/EDMi/EDMDetails.aspx?EDMID=28872&SESSION=875

Early Day Motion

USE OF 0870 TELEPHONE NUMBERS BY GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS

19.07.2005

Campbell, Gregory

That this House notes the proliferation of 0870 prefix telephone numbers used by a range of Government Departments for members of the public to get in touch; recognises the fact that they can cost up to two and a half times more than regional numbers, and that in some cases departments make substantial profits from such numbers; further notes that last year the Government's Central Office of Information urged Departments not to use 0870 numbers as the cost could act as a barrier to communicating information that the citizen should have access to as a right; and calls upon the Government to take action to end this indefensible practice.

Campbell, Gregory 
Donaldson, Jeffrey 
Simpson, David 
Robinson, Iris 
Spink, Bob 
Winterton, Nicholas 
Holmes, Paul 
Jones, Lynne 
Lewis, Julian 
Owen, Albert 
Corbyn, Jeremy 
Weir, Mike 
Winterton, Ann 
Randall, John 
Simpson, Alan 
Jenkins, Brian 
Drew, David 
Durkan, Mark 
Gerrard, Neil 
Bottomley, Peter 
Pelling, Andrew 

Following on the discussion that VoIP will overtake POTS and be Free.

Its highly unlikely that VoIP services will stay free as the the use increases and the application matures. Remember that sending SMS messages via the net were once free promos used by ISP`s and now charged by most.

Its likely that VoIP software packages e.g Skype etc will become paid for, either as an app Like Norton AV with an annual subscription or the ISP will restructure their packages so that including things like VoIP will be on one of the higher scale of charges

What do you think?

Quote:


I think the key thing to remember is that Voip consumes considerable broadband bandwidth and that nearly all of  the cheaper broadband packages have data capacity caps.  Thus if someone making a lot of phone calls with say 18866 stops making calls that way and starts using voip they are going to have to pay for a more expensive broadband package.

On the wider point logically email should charge 2p a message or whatever and then I wouldn't be inundated with email Spam for Viagra and pirated Microsoft software.  But so far that hasn't happened.  It does seem that the broadband market is very competitive so to get you on board there are always going to be companies who will say get your phone calls for free.

At the moment it seems hard to use Voip as conveniently as a Pots phone call from other extensions in your house when you are not at a computer keyboard etc.  To replace POTS Voip needs to be as convenient as POTS is.

Also as a sideline when will Voip come to mobiles?  Presumably only once 3G and/or 4G handsets are fairly universally in use?

The reality though seems to be that to get all my Dect and extension phones supported by Dect is a big hassle and a big cost in investing in new equipment and although voipbuster and voipcheap may temporarily be free to a Pots line that will not be the case for very long.  And although I can buy a bluetooth wireless voip headset at Maplin for 60 quid so far as I can see I have to return to the computer screen each time to dial?  Or did I miss something obvious.

As for wifi being free everywhere away from home this isn't the real world.  Why would anyone give this service to customers for free when they have to invest in transmitter equipment and monthly broadband rental.  All the roaming wifi services are currently extortionately expensive and their transmitte range is exceedingly limited.  Hopefully they may get cheaper gradually but data on GPRS still makes such obscene charges that it prevents the growth of the market.  Vodafone charges for 3g data are also obscene.  Their inclusive 3g data packages are void in Europe and they charge 12 quid a megabyte or something lunatic in another EU member country.  In other words the old roaming ripoff again.

The mobile phone companies have spent billions on their 3g licenses.  They operate in a totally uncompetitive market where uk customers cannot cross roam onto other operators networks.  So you really think Ofcom and the government will make them give all that up overnight and let Vodafone go bankrupt?  Thing again.  The market is so slow to develop that the imbeciles at Three still don't allow proper internet access using their 3g product over 2 years after their network was launched.  They only let people into a useless walled garden of Premier league goals.

If voip is "free" on your mobile eventually it will only be because you are paying a fixed monthly line rental of 50 quid a month.  Outside towns Wifi is a non starter.

Broadband is a brilliant product at the moment for BT because people have to now pay an extortionate BT line rental and then pay again for broadband on top for even more pounds per month.  If the market is to develop it should be possible to use BT's copper loop for broadband but desubscribe from their expensive and archaic POTS service.  But there is no sign of the government or Ofcom is going to require this any time soon.

The pace and manner of development on all this is going to be a lot different from that which you seem to expect.  Out here in the countryside there are no wifi networks anywhere and BT, very belatedly is my only broadband option.

I prefer to live in the real world rather than in the visionary hypothetical world.