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OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION (Read 387,339 times)
idb
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #105 - Oct 19th, 2005 at 10:29pm
 
Quote:
How did you discover this really useful link idb ?
I've found that Ofcom tends to place a link for the responses on the original consultation page. I tend to check periodically anyway so came across it yesterday.
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NonGeographicalMan
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #106 - Oct 20th, 2005 at 2:16am
 
Quote:
What seemed really amazing though was how pertinent all these responses (to the earlier consultation) seemed to be to todays one.
So Why are we still only here  ?


The only purpose of Ofcoms latest consultations, as it has always been with Ofcom, is further extensive procrastination so as to allow thier chums in the 084/7 ripoffs camps to go on ringing the cash register as long as possible.

I was reading their plain English thing on 0870 on a train today and they make the ridiculous statement that they need to delay 0870 revenue share implementation for a year after they report back (which will probably be next September) so that companies can have new letterheads prepared and so the companies do not suffer any operational inconvenience.  They then go on to say this will also benefit the customers of 0870 numbers by them not ultimately being forced to bear the cost of this stationary reprint.  But what hogwash when their own analysis suggests most companies will not change their 0870 number and if any do they can obviously leave a message on the old one telling you the new one to call.  I am sure any savings on stationery not billed to customers will be greatly offset by them having to go on paying 0870 ripoff premiums for a further additional year.

Also in their proposals on 0845 numbers they actually admit they don't want all these rapidly dieing ISPs to have to change their numbers just because they might lose some customers and some money as a result.  Well good these customers are being ripped off through inertia and should either be on a 1p per minute at all times 0844 or move to a freephone 0808 dialup service at much lower prices.  But no Ofcom is prepared to see all 0845 numbers (including the tens of thousands of voice call numbers that are nothing to do with dial up internet) become more expensive than 0870 (so absurd that anyone other than the Stalinist revisionist working at Ofcom can see it) for endless government department services and for people like charities and the Consumers Association just so that a few ISPs are not inconvenienced in an industry that will be nearly dead by the time we hit their 0870 price change date.  Yet Ofcom is the one who advised the COI to tell govt departments being on 0870 was kinder to customers.  Dohhhh what's the use when dealing with the peanut brains and dodgy free lunch takers who make up most of the Ofcom staff.

The respondents so far have been far too kind.  My response will start by damning Ofcom for its morally bankrupt position as a regulator and for showing that it is consistently prepared to come up with the most convoluted obfuscation to put the interests of the public last and telecoms companies first.

The whole thing is a disgrace.  They propose putting 0871 under ICSTIS but not forcing the services to be renumbered to the 09 range.  But if they are not renumbered to 09 then obviously the public will think 0871 costs the same as 0870............................

The whole thing is shameful and makes no sense.  For instance Ofcom says revenue share will be abolished on 0870 but then says some companies may want to still charge more than geographic call rates for calling the numbers.  But why would they want to do this any more than for calling an 01 or 02 number if no revenue share is any longer involved.

There is no moral consistent basis to Ofcom's proposals.  It is just a convoluted set of weasel words that basically arranges the goal posts in a way that does the least damage to the former business colleagues of Mr Stephen Carter.
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« Last Edit: Oct 20th, 2005 at 9:41pm by N/A »  
 
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bbb_uk
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #107 - Oct 20th, 2005 at 4:00pm
 
For those that weren't already aware, Ofcom's consultation was split into TWO consultations:-
Number Translation Services: A Way Forward


and

Providing citizens and consumers with improved information about Number Translation Services and Premium Rate Services

So for those that may have already responded to Ofcom's 'A Way Forward' consultation don't forget the other consultation mentioned above!
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joe65
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #108 - Oct 20th, 2005 at 4:35pm
 
Quote:
The first responses to the consultation document have already been published:

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/nts_forward/responses/?a=87101

Hey idb,
            There's something faulty with the link to reponses.
If I follow it I still see the original list of only about 12 responses.

Wondering why no more had been posted in the last few days, I found if you delete the  last
"/?a=87101"  bit  you can see twice as many  (currently ~25).
Try it:-
http://www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/nts_forward/responses/

The dodgy link seems  to have originated from OfCom's website, where I guess it was copied from.  Eg at the very bottom of this page :-
http://www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/nts_forward

I've sent a message to their Webmaster, though I guess they won't get it fixed as quick as our 24/7 operation.
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« Last Edit: Oct 20th, 2005 at 7:05pm by joe65 »  

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Dave
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #109 - Oct 20th, 2005 at 9:21pm
 
Quote:
... For instance Ofcom says revenue share will be abolished on 0870 but then says some companies may want to still charge more than geographic call rates for calling the numbers.  But why would they want to do this any more than for calling an 01 or 02 number if no revenue share is any longer involved.

That's only like the current state of affairs with freephone numbers costing more than geographical numbers from many mobiles. It will be the originating providers which will benefit from this. And with the many 0870 numbers in service, I'm sure that mobile providers won't miss an opportunity to rip people off.

That said, on the whole, it would be far better than the current setup, although if these numbers are promoted as costing geographical rates, it might encourage a larger percentage of calls to 0870s to be made from mobiles.  Undecided
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NonGeographicalMan
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #110 - Oct 20th, 2005 at 9:51pm
 
Quote:
That's only like the current state of affairs with freephone numbers costing more than geographical numbers from many mobiles. It will be the originating providers which will benefit from this. And with the many 0870 numbers in service, I'm sure that mobile providers won't miss an opportunity to rip people off.


ok Dave thanks for this.

So in our responses to Ofcom we all need to say it is not good enough that Ofcom says revenue sharing must end.  But on top of this Ofcom must insist that every licensed uk telecoms call carrier, including mobile phone companies, cannot charge more for carrying a call to an 0870 number than they charge for calling an 01 or 02 number.  That is to say that if you have a contract mobile phone with inclusive minutes for all normal uk fixed line calls that 0870 must now be covered by the package.

In our response we must particularly point to the current 0845 and 0870 ripoffs as being a reason why the present Ofcom proposals must be further revised to insist that all uk OCPs cannot charge more for 0870   numbers than their rate to 01 and 02 numbers once the new regime comes in.  It is not good enough for Ofcom to say it hopes this will happen.  Also Ofcom does not comment on inclusive call packages to geographic numbers and again Ofcom must be forced to make rules to ensure that 0870 numbers will be included in these call packages once these changes go through.  Light Touch = Out of Touch is the message we must get across to Ofcom

Of course I would also like to see this rule applied to 0845 but that needs to be tackled in a different way by showing Ofcom that by the time their 0870 changes come in there will be hardly any 0845 dial up left and that what dial up is left will have all moved to cheaper deals on 0844 and 0808 so there is no case at all to preserve the revenues of a few remaining ripoff 0845 dialup ISPs at the expense of continuing inflated prices for millions of calls a day to voice 0845 numbers.  Ofcom must have it pointed out to them that 0845 has always been marketed as being "Lo-Call"!  Also the fact that 0845 is used for voice calls and dialup is entirely the fault of their totally incompetent predecessors at OFTEL.
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #111 - Oct 21st, 2005 at 1:29pm
 
Quote:
That is the principal issue idb, as you say all uses of NGNs where revenue is required must be moved back to 09 where they belong. I do not believe it is difficult at all to plan a proper use of the 08 category. ISPs could easily be allocated a relatively low rate 09 category. It is all about wanting to plan a proper structure which conforms to the National Numbering Plan. However I don't agree with your idea re 018.... That would just confuse things even more. Any number commencing 01 must stay geographic.
Having thought about this, I'm inclined to agree. Ofcom has made a complete mess of the NTNP and further anomolies should be discouraged, however I plan to modify my original suggestion slightly. My a5sertion is that NTS 084 and 087 are not needed and should revenue be required then the numbers must shift into the 09 range and all others must revert to geographic. Recognizing that number migration takes a while and that the Ofcom proposed timeframe is unacceptable, then an interim solution is required.

My proposal is that 0844, 0845, 0870 and 0871 are allocated a geographic 'replace code' from the unused pools that simply overlays the NGN and will be handled exactly as a geographic equivalent. This will be a temporary measure until these scam numbers are consigned to history. Give operators a two year period to switch over.

A similar process used to happen here in the United States for the toll-free numbering, although it has subsequently been ditched, presumably because foreign operators treat such calls as normal geographic numbers and there are now fewer problems with international termination. Area codes 880, 881 and 882 were allocated as 'replace codes' for toll-free numbers 800, 888 and 877 respectively and designated "paid international calls to +1 8XX" so that calls originating outside the NANP could be terminated.
Comments/criticisms are again welcome.


<><><>

This message board software is a joke. It changes the phrase "my a5sertion" (I have had to replace an 's' with a '5' ) to "I disagreeertion" presumably because it does not like the word a5s.

Has this software been designed by Ofcom by any chance?

Can the owner do something about this ludicrous behaviour?
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« Last Edit: Oct 21st, 2005 at 2:13pm by idb »  

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NonGeographicalMan
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #112 - Oct 21st, 2005 at 1:49pm
 
Quote:
A similar process used to happen here in the United States for the toll-free numbering, although it has subsequently been ditched, presumably because foreign operators treat such calls as normal geographic numbers and there are now fewer problems with international termination.


A smiliar process occurred on London when 01 became 0171 and 0181 and when those codes then became 020 when either dialling code (old and new) worked together for a long period.

But Ofcom won't allow this in this case idb as this would mean an early end to the 0870 and 0845 scamming.  The whole  point of Ofcom's proposals is to preserve the 0870 and 0845 scamming for as long as they think they can get away with it politically.  And then as a thank you many of those Ofcom directors will soon move back to the private telcos at much higher salaries.

Of course they will say this is due to their extra skill set developed at the regulator and will deny it is a pay back for favours bestowed.  But you only have to read what is written in the consultation document about loss of revenue to service providers and telcos to work out the real truth. Shocked

Anyhow thanks on your suggestion about immediately bringing in the dual geographic code on 0870 and 0845.  This completely blows out of the water Ofcom's argument that 0845 has to go on revenue sharing for years and years more so incompetent dialup users will still be able to go on dialling 0845 (if they don't mind paying the extra cost. Wink Shocked )

I will make sure to include your valuable suggestion in my response to Ofcom as I hope that you also will.
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #113 - Oct 22nd, 2005 at 1:12pm
 
Hi idb,

I do not believe myself that the 08 series, mainly referring to 0870, 0871, 0845, 0844,  should be phased out or deleted. I believe all current 08 numbers should be continued within NTS, but should be charged immediately and henceforth at the originating telco carrier's geo rate. NTS should be operated so that any connection costs en-route and for terminating should be bourne by telcos within the NTS, on a swings and round-abouts basis (rather as car insurers share the settlement payouts for claims, not any longer claiming from the other insured but settling their own insured's losses). At the end of the day this would result in algebraic balance and there would be a saving of the current costs of computing transfer costs and settlements between the telcos.

NTS and the 08 series of NGNs could then be used as was originally intended before BT commenced abusing them, and Oftel sat by and watched it happen, doing nothing.

I believe all Premium use (Revenue Sharing use) should be forced to 09 where it has belonged all the time in the current structure.

Other abuses, misleading designations and misnomers,  particularly 070PNS abuses shall also be ceased. I do not believe 070PNS should have ever been alllowed within the 07 category. Its characteristics are essentially no different to those generally intended for NTS, and it does not have any characteristics relating to the 07 category. If PNS is genuinely required which I doubt then it should be accomodated within the 08 series and charged at the same as geo rates. The only real reason it was ever coined was specifically for abuse.
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Ofcom are completely ineffectual
 
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NonGeographicalMan
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #114 - Oct 22nd, 2005 at 11:04pm
 
Quote:
If PNS is genuinely required which I doubt then it should be accomodated within the 08 series and charged at the same as geo rates..

Dorf,

It seems to me that if PNS is required and people are prepared to pay the extortionate rates then 07 PNS should be renumbered to 09 where it belongs.  It has no place on the 08 code.
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dorf
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #115 - Oct 23rd, 2005 at 9:09pm
 
NGM, If the current exorbitant rates were continued I agree 09 would be the only logical and permissible category for current 070 PNS uses.

However, my point was that if it is really required for its supposed purpose, which I doubt, it really is no different in the actual functionality offered to 087, or 084 etc. Thus if it really is a separate category which is required, for some reason which I do not understand, I feel due to its actual functionality this current service should logically be within the 08 category somewhere, charged at the same as geo rates.
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Ofcom are completely ineffectual
 
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NonGeographicalMan
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #116 - Oct 23rd, 2005 at 10:42pm
 
Quote:
However, my point was that if it is really required for its supposed purpose, which I doubt, it really is no different in the actual functionality offered to 087, or 084 etc. Thus if it really is a separate category which is required, for some reason which I do not understand, I feel due to its actual functionality this current service should logically be within the 08 category somewhere, charged at the same as geo rates.


Some PNS numbers (mainly k rate which is 35p peak, 25p offpeak and 12p at the weekend) offer diversion to international mobile numbers at no cost to the holder of the PNS number.  Until very recently calls to international mobiles have been very expensive (after they were regrettably split for international tariffing in many countries 5 or so years ago just as international fixed line call prices started to fall through the floor) so there is an argument this PNS variant should have been legitimately allowed on an 09 tariff.

However the key thing is that legislation needs to be passed to heavily revise BT's Call Diversion feature so that it is possible for it to divert calls using dial through numbers, and using indirect access prefixes like 1899.  If these things were made compulsory for fixed line operators like BT then the need for PNS would completely fall away.  But again those at Ofcom will not vote for doing anything that may prevent themselves getting another well paid job at a Telco when they leave Ofcom. Shocked Roll Eyes
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« Last Edit: Oct 24th, 2005 at 2:40am by N/A »  
 
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dorf
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #117 - Oct 24th, 2005 at 12:24am
 
NGM, if that is an option currently offered on k rate 07 PNS and possibly other rate PNS then you have a point. However, as you rightly observe to fix this as a monopoly function as at present is a violation of free competition. So I agree with you in this respect, where this is an included compulsory charge to the caller then such a service should be within 09.

However if it were offered as a non-monopoly service, as it should be, then it should be just another form of NTS, diverted via any telco carrier chosen by the called party, and charged at the normal geo rate to the caller. (In this case I feel it should be within the 08 category, and this option should in any case be available for all NTS.)
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Ofcom are completely ineffectual
 
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #118 - Oct 24th, 2005 at 4:23pm
 
Norfolk County Council Trading Standards have responded to the "Way Forward" consultation here.

The main point they make is that it's better for companies to stay silent on pricing, rather than state a potentially misleading [BT] price.
Quote:
Even if the OCP makes a price announcement before connection, an offence is still committed by an advertiser who has previously stated that the price is lower than this. The price announcement merely reduces the consumer detriment.

This is interesting and is a reason to question allowing OCPs to charge more than their geographical rate with pricing announcements.

If Ofcom were to implement the proposals, then how does this fit in? SPs must display pricing information according to Ofcom's rules, but must not display them according to the law!

Should Ofcom have not seeked legal advice before going ahead and publishing this consultation?
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #119 - Oct 24th, 2005 at 4:44pm
 
I mentioned that in reply #96 and also in the trading standards thread here.

Norfolk Council themselves use 5ppm 0844 numbers but of course don't publish the cost anywhere so no one knows they are paying over the odds to call them compared to a geographical or even an 0845.

I can't see ofcom having price announcements implemented due to the cost involved for the networks but I do believe that for mobiles/payphones then price announcements should be implemented because there is a huge difference between upto 4ppm (0845)/8ppm (0870) and upto 40ppm to call either a 0845/0870.

By Ofcom's own admission, any call over 10ppm is considered premium rate therefore I can't see why they wont, at the very least, insist on call announcements from payphones/mobile networks.

As for landlines then they are generally around the same price as BT and BT still have SMP so therefore I think that ofcom should inforce the non-broadcasting side of the ASA's rules on 084x/087x and implement them everywhere including the broadcasting side of the ASA which so far has decided not to follow the rules of the non-broadcasting ASA.

We all know the simpliest answer is to move any revenue sharing number to the 09x range.  They could have an 09x range that cost the same as a 0870 currently costs now but with the added protection for us consumers of knowing that they are receiving revenue from the call and that call queueing is not allowed.
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« Last Edit: Oct 24th, 2005 at 4:44pm by bbb_uk »  
 
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