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OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION (Read 391,020 times)
NonGeographicalMan
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #120 - Oct 24th, 2005 at 4:21pm
 
Quote:
I mentioned that in reply #96 and also in the trading standards thread here.
By Ofcom's own admission, any call over 10ppm is considered premium rate therefore I can't see why they wont, at the very least, insist on call announcements from payphones/mobile networks.


Ofcom's attitude is that the mobile phone market is already subject to the white hot forces of private competition so there is no need.

Although clearly they don't seem to have factored in Vodafone or the fact that we have some of the highest landline to mobile phone prices in the western world.
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Dave
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #121 - Oct 24th, 2005 at 4:27pm
 
Quote:
Ofcom's attitude is that the mobile phone market is already subject to the white hot forces of private competition so there is no need.

And of course this is the reason Orange are about to start charging for freephone calls.  Roll Eyes
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NonGeographicalMan
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #122 - Oct 24th, 2005 at 4:54pm
 
Quote:
And of course this is the reason Orange are about to start charging for freephone calls.  Roll Eyes


And also the reason that Orange will no doubt be able to get away without any prominent announcements alerting its customers to this major change.

What can one really say of Ofcom the so called telecoms regulator that has spent quite a while encouraging the COI to make amended policy saying that 0845 is not as bad as 0870 for government call centres only to then propose rgeulatory changes that will mean 0845 will be much worse than 0870.

To say that the left and the right hand at Ofcom don't seem to talk to one another much is to put it mildly. Roll Eyes
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bbb_uk
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #123 - Oct 24th, 2005 at 4:59pm
 
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And also the reason that Orange will no doubt be able to get away without any prominent announcements alerting its customers to this major change...
Don't the mobile networks have to have call announcements for freephone calls that they are charging for?  If so, this would be the first indication that they are being charged for those that may miss it when Orange write to their pay monthly customers.
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dorf
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #124 - Oct 24th, 2005 at 5:01pm
 
Yes but surely that is their deliberate strategy to satisfy their government controllers? More bamboozle and all part of the continued deception. If we confuse the general public they will not realise what we are doing?
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Ofcom are completely ineffectual
 
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NonGeographicalMan
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #125 - Oct 24th, 2005 at 5:24pm
 
Quote:
Yes but surely that is their deliberate strategy to satisfy their government controllers? More bamboozle and all part of the continued deception. If we confuse the general public they will not realise what we are doing?


Absolutely Dorf that is their strategy.

Why else produce two consultation documents where one would do and why produce 250 pages where 50 would have done!
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bbb_uk
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #126 - Oct 24th, 2005 at 5:57pm
 
As mobile networks have call announcements for 0800 calls then how hard or more expensive can it be for them to implement it for NGN's calls that they charge upto 40ppm for?
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NonGeographicalMan
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #127 - Oct 24th, 2005 at 6:04pm
 
Quote:
As mobile networks have call announcements for 0800 calls then how hard or more expensive can it be for them to implement it for NGN's calls that they charge upto 40ppm for?


Ummm,

No more difficult that it would have been for all 0845 dialup ISPs to have to migrate their customers to 0844 so that 0845 voice callers could make calls at geographic rates. Wink

In other words such announcements would not be at all expensive to implement but would lose a huge amount in lost call revenue for mobile companies from their dumber customers who then suddenly realised they were being ripped off.  So again Ofcom prefer to be "Out of Touch" (or "In Touch" with what is good for the bank balances  of their old working colleagues) rather to be consumer focused. Roll Eyes
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« Last Edit: Oct 24th, 2005 at 6:04pm by N/A »  
 
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Dave
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #128 - Oct 24th, 2005 at 8:25pm
 
The issue about 0845 numbers staying as-is for 2 years is an important one which respondees must not overlook when backing Ofcom's suggestion that 0870 be aligned to geographical rates.
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Dave
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #129 - Oct 25th, 2005 at 5:05pm
 
In my response, I will be mentioning the way in which Ofcom has come to the conclusion that queuing and revenue generating isn't a problem.

It has conducted an experiment by ringing companies on 0800, 0845 and 0870 numbers (see pages 169 and 170). It found no correlation between different number prefixes and waiting times. That is all well and good and I don't doubt that the results are valid for the question it posed.

However, I think that certain points have been missed out here. The issues are thus:
1) Does a company queue calls to make revenue?
2) As a consumer, if you are put in a queue/on hold, you are paying the company. It may only be a small amount, but nevertheless, money is being taken from your pocket and you have no control over this. This cannot be right!
3) The cost of the call itself, which can be broken down into the cost whilst:-
(a) on hold, which is dependant on when an operator becomes available.
(b) talking to the operator. With a truelly value-added service, this part is acceptable.

Ofcom has essentially asked the question "Do companies queue differently on different prefixes?" I don't think that Ofcom's 'mystery shopping' has covered all of the above.

It may have touched on point 1, but it's not really answered it. It's more a case of companies can put callers on hold.

When looking at the results, we should bear in mind that many SMEs use 0870s. They are small shops who may have a web presence. It is to be expected that such companies would answer the phone straight away.

It is usually call centre environments that manage many calls that have to queue, and it is these which Ofcom should be singling out to do some mystery shopping!

So to take an average where there are alot of SMEs is totally pointless as it just brings down the mean waiting time.
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #130 - Oct 25th, 2005 at 5:31pm
 
I would like to add that a while ago I made a complaint to Ofcom and was asked for my contact number.  As they (at that the time anyhow) used an 0845 number I gave them my NGN also.  The operator then had the cheek to ask do I have a geographical instead of my NGN?

I replied it was forwarded to my mobile.  This wasn't true but I wasn't prepared to give my geo number out to them due to the fact they aren't doing anything for us consumers with regards to NGN's.

Anyhow, why is it ofcom try and play down the significance of the cost of NGN's when their contact centre wanted my underlying geographical number?

Obviously they wanted the cheapest form of contact number for me so why can't us consumers ask the same from companies?

It's obviously ok for ofcom to try to avoid ringing NGN's where possible but us consumers have to put up with them!
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Dave
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #131 - Oct 26th, 2005 at 4:58pm
 
Quote:
The issue about 0845 numbers staying as-is for 2 years is an important one which respondees must not overlook when backing Ofcom's suggestion that 0870 be aligned to geographical rates.

On page 158 of the consultation, paragraph A4.154 states:
Quote:
In the case of 0845, however, Ofcom was mindful of the effects on ISP services if 0845 numbers were required to revert to geographic rates, in the same timeframe as 0870. Ofcom also noted that wider public concern over 0845 charges was not as great as for 0870 and ISP services operating on 0845 are generally regarded as offering good value. In addition, the potential ISP migration costs would have been significant at a time when broadband penetration compared to pay-as-yougo dial-up internet access. Ofcom therefore proposes to review the situation regarding 0845 numbers towards the end of the two year interim period, to assess the level of continuing demand for pay-as-you-go dial-up internet access, before deciding whether to require 0845 calls to be charged at geographic rates for this range as well.

So Ofcom will leave 0845 as it is for at least two years because public concern is less for 0845 than 0870!

If this is the case then we must make reference to this and tell them that just because there is less outcry over 0845 doesn't make it right. More to the point, there are more services on 0870 and, as Ofcom admit, the majority of calls to 0845 are to ISPs which should be considered separately from voice calls.
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NonGeographicalMan
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #132 - Oct 26th, 2005 at 5:27pm
 
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Ofcom therefore proposes to review the situation regarding 0845 numbers towards the end of the two year interim period, to assess the level of continuing demand for pay-as-you-go dial-up internet access, before deciding whether to require 0845 calls to be charged at geographic rates for this range as well.


So it isn't just that 0845 calls will revert to geographic prices one year after the one year deadline for 0870 call price changes that will take effect  when Ofcom finally publishes its response to the consultation and sets that date.  So perhaps say 8 months from now and that 's of course assuming that Ofcom don't decide to have another consultation on 0870 too. Shocked Roll Eyes

All Ofcom are in fact saying is that some nearly two years after that one year to 0870 price change clock date starts running Ofcom will merely look at how many people are calling 0845 numbers with dial up ISPs to consider if it perhaps might see its way to ending revenue share perhaps another  year later.  So 0845 will stay as premium priced calls outside call packages for at least another 3 to 4 years from now. Roll Eyes

0845 may well not be the headline today but they sure will be in 18 months or so time when they start to become far more expensive to call than most 0870s and when people really will notice that they are not what the useless Ofcom still incredibly currently allows to be marketed as being Lo-Call!  Also how is Ofcom going to then justify the advice it gave the COI that any government 0870 should be migrated to at least 0845 because it was not as expensive.

These proposals from Ofcom are totally intellectually incoherent and reflect nothing other than Ofcom's ability to pander only to whatever its director chums in the major uk isps and telcos tell Ofcom they want it to do.

Ofcom is a totally bankrupt regulator and if it goes ahead with these crazy proposals to make 0845 still premium priced non geographic calls while 0870 become geographic it is going to face the most enormous public backlash against its grotesque incompetence and inability to ever genuinely act in the public interest.

There are only two possibilities which are either (a) that Ofcom staff are so utterly clueless that they really can be bamboozled by the ISPs into believing it is actually difficult to migrate an 0845 customer to a cheaper 0844 ISP service or (b) that they know perfectly well it is not difficult but that their friends in the ISPs have told them that it will impact their own personal bonuses due to loss of all that lovely illicitly gained call revenue from ignorant 0845 users who don't realise what they are paying.  Now since I don't actually believe Ofcom staff are ignorant of the lack of any technical complexity in moving 0845 calls to 0844 my money is all on option (b) being the case.  Especially as the Ofcom consultation document actually admits that loss of revenue to ISPs is the primary reason for deciding not to end 0845 revenue share at precisely the same time as 0870. Shocked

So I wonder how Mr Stephen Carter plans to use his newly discovered Voip calling facility to make cheap calls to 0845 numbers in 2 years time?  Oh I forgot that as Ofcom is paying his phone bill for him he of course will be utterly clueless that this is even actually the case.  And no doubt back at home it is his wife who has to deal with the phone bills. Roll Eyes
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« Last Edit: Oct 26th, 2005 at 7:13pm by N/A »  
 
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Dave
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #133 - Oct 26th, 2005 at 6:44pm
 
I think that we should question the validity of Ofcom's research, especially the consumer research.
Quote:
A6.25 [...] The quantitative research found that the majority (79%) agreed that every individual has a choice whether or not to use these services.

Really ? Roll Eyes

Bear in mind:
Quote:
A6.27 Before the interview only 30% of consumers were aware that companies who use NTS prefixes share call revenue with telephone providers.

Quote:
A6.32 Overall, the qualitative and quantitative research indicated that residential consumers are looking for clarity in order to distil the confusion over call prices rather than being concerned about revenue share per se. ...

That would be reasonable as most consumers weren't aware of RS before being asked, so how can telling them that companies can RS brief enough on the issues to make an informed decision?

Quote:
A6.32 continued: ... When options were presented to respondents in the qualitative research there was no clear preference for a single option, although Option 2 (Ofcom's preferred option from the October 2004 Consultation – see Section 2, paragraph 2.12 for explanation) was the one that was preferred by most. This option was ‘safe’, in that it was most similar to the status quo so there were no further complications. ...

So maybe interviewees didn't really understand what it was the were 'choosing' and what the implications were. They just picked one from the list.

Quote:
A6.32 continued: ... Anything that was perceived to complicate matters, or introduced additional, or unfamiliar numbers, tended to be rejected by the focus groups. ...

Options 2 was to break up 0845/0870 into different pricing rates. This would obviously complicate matters and so Ofcom are right to not go along with this.
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joe65
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #134 - Oct 26th, 2005 at 7:17pm
 
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What a farce to claim Ofcom is accountable to Parliament when the reality is that it is accountable only to a combination of a few vested interests in the telecoms industry

Isn't that what being Independent means 'though ?  
Independent of Government,
Independent of Society,
and free to  serve who it pleases
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« Last Edit: Oct 26th, 2005 at 7:20pm by joe65 »  

There are those who count,&&An' those who cann't,&&An' those who count  on the both of 'em.
 
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