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OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION (Read 389,798 times)
NonGeographicalMan
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #135 - Oct 26th, 2005 at 7:22pm
 
Has anyone thought of putting in an FOI to Ofcom as to how they conducted this market research and especially how they decided to ask their questions in a way that would not automatically be likely to prejudge the likely range of responses.

As far as I can see Ofcom asked questions like "as you know these 0870 numbers are charged at a higher rate than calls starting 01 or 02" so can you tell us how much per minute they do cost to call.  To which the confused questionees realised something was up and gave price answers close to 50p per minute, thinking that this was what Ofcom's clearly biased question was getting at (given that most members of the public are readily aware of 09 numbers costing 50p to £1.50 per minute even though some in fact cost less than this).  Whereas had Ofcom listen some 0870, 0871, 0844 and 0845 numbers in a long list mixed up with plenty of 01 and 02 numbers and asked people what rate they thought they were charged at they would have got the answers "local rate" and "national rate".

But because Ofcom are so blatantly biased that they even actually always announce their preferred solutions on various alternate proposals in documents they misleadingly call "consultations" I suppose it was almost second nature to them to rig the way the questions were asked to pull in the answers that would best suit the agenda of their telco chums at the NTS Focus Groups. Roll Eyes
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« Last Edit: Oct 26th, 2005 at 9:04pm by N/A »  
 
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NonGeographicalMan
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #136 - Oct 26th, 2005 at 7:26pm
 
Quote:
Isn't that what being Independent means 'though ?  
Independent of Government,
Independent of Society,
and free to  serve who it pleases


Ofcom is only supposed to be free to serve the interests of uk citizens and consumers as it was originally instructed to do by Parliament.  Being nice to telcos and not harming their existing revenue streams is not supposed to be one of Ofcom's guiding lights.

This is clearly set out here:-

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/about/sdrp/

Ofcom's Statutory Duties
Under the Communications Act 2003:

" 3(1) It shall be the principal duty of Ofcom, in carrying out their functions;
(a) to further the interests of citizens in relation to communications matters; and
(b) to further the interests of consumers in relevant markets, where appropriate by promoting competition
"

and

Ofcom will intervene where there is a specific statutory duty to work towards a public policy goal which markets alone cannot achieve.

Ofcom will operate with a bias against intervention, but with a willingness to intervene firmly, promptly and effectively where required.


Perhaps you would care to explain to me how not damaging the revenue stream of existing 0845 dial up ISPs serves the interests of uk citizens and consumers?  Especially when it also causes those same consumers to have to pay far more to make ordinary voice calls on 0845 numbers to people like the Inland Revenue and the local police forces for many years to come.
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« Last Edit: Oct 26th, 2005 at 7:30pm by N/A »  
 
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joe65
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #137 - Oct 26th, 2005 at 8:01pm
 
Quote:
Perhaps you would care to explain to me how not damaging the revenue stream of existing 0845 dial up ISPs serves the interests of uk citizens and consumers?  Especially when it also causes those same consumers to have to pay far more to make ordinary voice calls on 0845 numbers to people like the Inland Revenue and the local police forces for many years to come.

Wasn't a new number range set up specifically to allow chargeable, Dial Up,  Internet Access ?   Wasn't  it 0844...  ?  If memory serves, didn't even BTInternet use this initially.     But then a number of ISPs switched to using 0845.    0845 was specifically NOT set up for providing Internet access.   Any operators who may have ventured to use it for such, however unwittingly, should bear the consequences.
   So a number of users may be inconvenienced by having to change their Dialler numbers, if these ISPs are 'forced' to change their 0845 access number, by losing revenue share.    Anyone who doesn't know how to check/change their dialler number is already vulnerable to the scamsters who'll do it without their knowledge.
 Changing the Dial-Up access numbers would be a marvellous opportunity to educate the users for their own protection, as well as no doubt leveraging a lot of them off -dialup and onto broadband.
  I completely fail to see any credible reasoning to omit 0845 numbers from this review.      I can just envisage  the subsequent surge in demand for them ... as scamsters scurry for this last unregulated rock to hide under.
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« Last Edit: Oct 26th, 2005 at 8:02pm by joe65 »  

There are those who count,&&An' those who cann't,&&An' those who count  on the both of 'em.
 
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NonGeographicalMan
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #138 - Oct 26th, 2005 at 9:15pm
 
Quote:
I completely fail to see any credible reasoning to omit 0845 numbers from this review.      I can just envisage  the subsequent surge in demand for them ... as scamsters scurry for this last unregulated rock to hide under.


I hope you will be making this point in your submission to Ofcom as I will.  There are far too many submissions to Ofcom congratulating Ofcom on their 0870 proposals and totally missing the point on on their appalling 0845 proposals.  Whereas Ofcom should be totally slammed for proposing far too little too late and still not getting it right.

By the way all dial up ISPs were originally on 0845 at 4p peak and 1 to 1.5p per minute offpeak.  The creation of 0844 and 0871 number ranges with a variable charging range (1 to 5p for 0844 and 6 to 10p for 0871) but constant at all times call rate was a later development.  But only the more ethical ISPs decided to offer their customers a 1p per minute at all times 0844 number.

Ofcom are protecting the worst 0845 dial up scammer ISPs to the detriment of those dial up customers and to the even bigger detriment of all the voice based 0845 callers (eg calls to Police and Inland Revenue) who will get shafted as a result for many years to come.

This is utterly disgraceful and proves either that Ofcom are either grotesquely incompetent or that they are not fulfilling their statutory remit because their senior staff has been totally infiltrated with a range of telecoms professionals clearly not capable of acting in the public interest.

Yet most of the dumber members of the public responding to the Ofcom document will congratulate them on their 10 years too late proposals on 0870 numbers. Shocked
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joe65
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #139 - Oct 27th, 2005 at 10:58am
 
Quote:
I hope you will be making this point in your submission to Ofcom as I will.  ...

I'm just limbering up to it ..
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There are those who count,&&An' those who cann't,&&An' those who count  on the both of 'em.
 
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NonGeographicalMan
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #140 - Oct 27th, 2005 at 11:00am
 
Quote:
I'm just limbering up to it ..


The thing is they always set the deadline weeks in the future so that there is a danger you will overlook it.

I know that this is what happened to me with the Patientline consultation. Sad

Its best to respond today before you have a chance to forget about it.
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joe65
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #141 - Oct 27th, 2005 at 11:19am
 
Maybe I should just make a separate response for each point then.... as it occurs,   to avoid that danger of a masterfully crafted, substantive & comprehensive response, missing the boat.    It should add to the impression of a large response too.
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There are those who count,&&An' those who cann't,&&An' those who count  on the both of 'em.
 
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NonGeographicalMan
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #142 - Oct 27th, 2005 at 11:27am
 
Quote:
Maybe I should just make a separate response for each point then.... as it occurs,   to avoid that danger of a masterfully crafted, substantive & comprehensive response, missing the boat.    It should add to the impression of a large response too.


Perhaps its best to stick all the points down quicky in four paras rather than as 10 page magnum opus response as I unfortunately did last time.

Sadly history shows that although Ofcom produces 250 page documents for other people to read they can't be bothered to read responses to their consultations of even 10 pages.

Or at least if they do they don't take any  notice of what is in them. Roll Eyes Shocked
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lynneinjapan
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #143 - Oct 29th, 2005 at 10:10am
 
Much as I hate being made to use these non-geographical premium rate numbers for calling UK organisations, they do have one useful application: they are used by Telestunt, Telediscount etc to give us cheap overseas calls.  What would be the effect on these companies and the services they offer, if these numbers were done away with?
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bbb_uk
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #144 - Oct 29th, 2005 at 10:35am
 
Most use 0844 which ofcom are not touching for the time being.

They can use an 09x number but low cost around the same cost as they would use now but I'm not sure of the range of costs for 09x numbers.
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dorf
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #145 - Oct 29th, 2005 at 11:21am
 
But the one issue that you guys are missing and which must predominate in any rational response to Ofcom's consultations is that all of these uses of any 08 prefix as disguised Premium numbers (i.e with any form of revenue sharing to end subscribers or their cronies) are illegal according to their own NTNP. All Premium numbers must be in the category 09 with call queuing prohibited.

I must emphasize yet again that the root of all of this is queuing, because at present they can have queuing with illegal Premium numbers. That is what they do not want to stop. This abuse clearly is against the interest of the Citizen Consumer and as NGM rightly points out, it is supposed to be the predominant remit of Ofcom under the Acts to protect the interests of the Citizen Consumer. This is exactly what Ofcom are so blatantly refusing to do and as such they are actually breaking UK Law.

The strategy of Ofcom is to get you all worrying about where else in the 08 range or 05 range or whatever they could move these abuse, since their objective is to be able to continue these abuses in a similar form by just mixing things about. They do this to take your eye "off the ball". They do not want to face the real issue which is that all these abuses should be moved to 09 where they belong because then all their cronies would loose the queuing revenue! This is why they continuously fail to do their duty under the law to protect the Citizen Consumer, and why they will never undertake their legal remit until Parliament censures them and clears out the deadwood and corruption at the highest level within this organisation.
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« Last Edit: Oct 29th, 2005 at 11:24am by dorf »  

Ofcom are completely ineffectual
 
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NonGeographicalMan
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #146 - Oct 29th, 2005 at 12:29pm
 
Quote:
But the one issue that you guys are missing and which must predominate in any rational response to Ofcom's consultations is that all of these uses of any 08 prefix as disguised Premium numbers (i.e with any form of revenue sharing to end subscribers or their cronies) are illegal according to their own NTNP.


Dorf,

Can you give me the web address where I can read a copy of the NTNP?
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dorf
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #147 - Oct 29th, 2005 at 12:37pm
 
Sorry NGM, I do not have a url for it to hand; but it was originally an Oftel document I believe, so you will find it on the Ofcom site probably listed under old Oftel documents?
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« Last Edit: Oct 29th, 2005 at 3:31pm by dorf »  

Ofcom are completely ineffectual
 
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bbb_uk
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #148 - Oct 29th, 2005 at 12:51pm
 
A google search reveals here in .pdf format.
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NonGeographicalMan
Ex Member


Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #149 - Oct 29th, 2005 at 12:57pm
 
Quote:
Sorry NGM, I do not have a url for it to hand; but it was originally an Oftel document I believe, so you will find it on the Ofcom site probably listed under old Oftel dcoments?


It turns out to in fact be a current Ofcom document having been inherited from OFTEL but then maintained by Ofcom and last updated as recently as 11th August 2005.  Only a very brief 29 pages by Ofcom standards Wink so has to be worth a read given its relevance to this issue and to the 084/7 consultations too.

A quick check shows that 199 has not been assigned to any specific use in the current NTNP. 101 is plain dumb as a choice as it would obviously be confused with being a variant of Operator Sevices.

Now didn't all those Police forces who adopted an 0845 number maintain that the main advantage was that they wouldn't have to to change their number again in future? Roll Eyes Shocked
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« Last Edit: Oct 29th, 2005 at 1:02pm by N/A »  
 
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