SAYNOTO0870.COM - OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS

NonGeographicalMan

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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #210 - Nov 9^th, 2005 at 6:07pm

Quote:

In this second consultation, as in the first, the submission from Dr R D Feltham is well worth reading.

Set aside a quarter of an hour, get yourself a cup of tea and then click here:

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/nts_info/responses/feltham.pdf

Dr Feltham's submissions always seem remarkably in tune with many of the regular posters in this forum. Almost as though he might be one of us. Wink

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Keith Senior Member Offline Posts: 378 Surrey Gender:	Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION Reply #211 - Nov 9^th, 2005 at 7:01pm He is very good isn't he? You just want to pin down OFCOM and ask: 'So what exactly is wrong with these arguments?' And if nothing 'Why don't you damn well implement them then?
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mikeinnc

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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #212 - Nov 10^th, 2005 at 2:41am

They really cannot help themselves, can they? It is a little off topic, but it shows the type of Corporate response we might expect.

The Australian Communications and Media Authority - which is roughly equivalent
to OFCOM in the UK - released a discussion paper in October 2004 reviewing
telecommunications regulation relevant to voice over Internet protocol (VoIP)
services. Its aim was to look at how well the current regulatory arrangements
deal with VoIP services and what adjustments in Australia - if any - are
required to accommodate this technique. Most of the major telcos replied -
including, of course, our dear scheming friends from BT.

BT is represented in Australia by BT Global Services, which is active in the
corporate sector among major companies who have an international presence.

Here is what was said in their submission about - yep, you guessed it - numbering issues.

Quote:

"In general, BT believes that non geographic numbers are more suitable for VoIP
services than geographic numbers. Where a VoIP product offers trans-PSTN
functionality, non-geographic numbers should be assigned and implementation of
those numbering ranges by Other Licensed Operators should be encouraged. Such
policy will allow providers to offer products with more innovative features and
pricing that is more cost-based. Such numbers should also be used for converged
mobile and fixed services. BT does acknowledge that there may be complications
where suitable non-geographic numbers are not available, where there is a lack
of support for non-geographic numbers across interconnection interfaces, or
where allocation would adversely affect new entrants in terms of delay or
costs."

More innovative features and pricing that is more cost-based? Where have we heard that before.....

So there we have it in a nutshell. Not content with completely - and almost
single handedly - screwing up the UK numbering system; screwing the public for
every penny it can get; and lying through its corporate teeth, it now wants to
repeat the exercise in Australia as well!

What an arrogant bunch they are!! I am afraid this who we are really up against.
It is probably not the regulator. Ofcom have been entirely seduced by the smooth snake
oil treatment, rolled over and now have BT tickling their tummy!. In many cases,
it is the same with the companies who have been sold on NGNs. I wonder what
selling pitch was peddled to them.....

(if you want to see the full submission, it is at
http://www.acma.gov.au/ACMAINTER.65674:STANDARD:1460051868:pc=PC_8002)

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idb

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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #213 - Nov 10^th, 2005 at 2:56am

Quote:

They really cannot help themselves, can they? It is a little off topic, but it shows the type of Corporate response we might expect.

The Australian Communications and Media Authority - which is roughly equivalent
to OFCOM in the UK - released a discussion paper in October 2004 reviewing
telecommunications regulation relevant to voice over Internet protocol (VoIP)
services. Its aim was to look at how well the current regulatory arrangements
deal with VoIP services and what adjustments in Australia - if any - are
required to accommodate this technique. Most of the major telcos replied -
including, of course, our dear scheming friends from BT.

I really thought that you may have made this up, perhaps for a little light relief, but no, it is completely genuine. Staggering. Its tentacles stretch everywhere. Perhaps BT's global policy is to allocate six billion non-geographic numbers each with a unique charge point with some eligible for friends and family discount but others excluded. Not content with screwing up the UK system, it now wants to inflict its views on the Aussies. I hope it never gets its grubby corporate fingers on either Bell South or Cingular, the providers of my fixed and cellular lines respectively.

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dorf

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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #214 - Nov 10^th, 2005 at 12:01pm

Hi mikeinnc,

Interesting that you make that conclusion concerning these abuses being in reality all due to BT, at least originally! A submission to the Ofcom NTS consultation by a Dr. R D Feltham is mentioned several times in this topic. I have noticed that there was a post on this forum under Geographic Numbers Chat back in Jul 2003 under "BT scam with non-geo Nos", and he or she has stated exactly the same as you conclude then. (The post is in two parts the second on the last page of Geographic Numbers Chat.)

So it does look as if you have a good point. We really have to awake perhaps to who the real enemy we are fighting is. It seems Ofcom are in effect just a puppet being manipulated?

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« Last Edit: Nov 10^th, 2005 at 12:03pm by dorf »

Ofcom are completely ineffectual

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mikeinnc

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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #215 - Nov 10^th, 2005 at 3:19pm

Yes, I have long come to the conclusion that the real villain of the scam is BT. You see, it desperately wants to maintain its voice traffic revenue in a changing environment. What better way than convince the majority of business subscribers of the "benefits" of having a non-geographic number? Of course, this requires the acquiescence of an ineffectual regulator - and BT seem to have done an excellent job there, completely neutering Ofcom. It also takes a huge amount of corporate lying - an area that BT excels in. National rate? Local rate? How long have those lies been peddled!

But here is my real fear for the future. As most readers will know, BT is spending billions of pounds to build a 'New Technology' network, entirely dependent on the Internet Protocol (IP). Now we have to ask - why? Well, I'm not the only person feeling very uncomfortable about this. Some of you may never have heard of Vinton Cerf. He co-invented the TCP/IP protocols which are the backbone of the Internet. When someone like Vinton Cerf is concerned, I think we all have a reason to be concerned!

Here is an extract from an article at:

http://www.internetweek.cmp.com/showArticle.jhtml?sssdmh=dm4.157617&articleId=17...

Quote:

Vinton Cerf, one of the founders of the Internet, urged on Wednesday a US House
committee working on major telecommunications legislation to ensure that
broadband operators do not "dictate what people can do online." Cerf's comments
were submitted on behalf of his employer, search engine Goggle Inc., to the
House Committee on Energy and Commerce. Cerf could not attend the meeting, due
to his receiving the Presidential Medal of Freedom on Wednesday at the White
House. Robert Kahn, who with Cerf developed the Internet protocol TCP/IP that
forms the foundation of the Internet, also received the award.

Cerf's comments related to concerns that as more people switch from dial-up
connections to broadband, telephone companies and cable operators would make it
difficult for subscribers to access services on the public Internet, pushing
them instead toward their own products on private networks.

"As we move to a broadband environment and eliminate century-old non-
discrimination requirements, a lightweight but enforceable neutrality rule is
needed to ensure that the Internet continues to thrive," Cerf said. "Telephone
companies cannot tell consumers who they can call; network operators should not
dictate what people can do online."

(my bolding)

Now do you start to see why BT is spending up big on its IP network? Do you really believe in your wildest dreams that BT is going to allow you - the UK citizen consumer - to send your Vonage or Dixon's IP voice packets over its expensive network? You bet your life it is not! This article might be about US telcos - but the principle is the same in the UK. So where are he "Vinton
Cerfs" in the UK, arguing to Ofcom that this must also be the way in the UK? And - given the cosy relationship between incumbent telco and regulator, what effect would it have?

Given the total ineffectiveness of Ofcom as a regulator, you can see what is brewing for the future. The NGN scam is only a start. Having proven the concept; got its snout in the trough; and - worse - seemingly getting away with it, this has the propensity to make the NGN scam seem like small change!

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« Last Edit: Nov 10^th, 2005 at 3:21pm by mikeinnc »

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Dave

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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #216 - Nov 10^th, 2005 at 3:37pm

Quote:

"Telephone companies cannot tell consumers who they can call; network operators should not dictate what people can do online."

Isn't this what certain mobile providers did/do with their GPRS/3G services? They only allow access to their own 'content'?

I can see that the end of POTS doesn't mean a fairer UK telecommunications market. BT is in the best position to make a head start, and that is what it is doing.

I agree with what you say mikeinnc, however, look at it from BT's point of view; it's now a profit making company and does what it sees as the best for its shareholders.

The question is, how do you expect any company to be happy to give up some of its market share to competitors?

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dorf Supreme Member Offline I hate Qs on Premium NGNs Posts: 575 UK Gender:	Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION Reply #217 - Nov 10^th, 2005 at 3:39pm Yes mikeinnc, I feel, unfortunately, that you have entirely got the measure of this. It is a quite frightening prospect for the future, with the totally ineffective (puppet) regulator which we have.
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andy9

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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #218 - Nov 10^th, 2005 at 4:27pm

about mikeinnc's interesting Vinton Cerf quote ...

All telecoms companies will be heavily investing in the parts of the market that they think will ensure their survival, but that is the paradox - running expenses and revenues are falling. Huge amounts of money have been invested and lost in telecoms, and the next round will be worse - that might be why they are trying to develop protectionist systems.

The only thing that I can say about VOIP and similar issues is I'm amazed how slowly it is happening; I predicted it 20 years ago. And apparently, the BT management took a lot of persuading of the business case for broadband - fear for the pstn revenues ...

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« Last Edit: Nov 10^th, 2005 at 4:59pm by andy9 »

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nthomas

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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #219 - Nov 10^th, 2005 at 4:27pm

Regarding Nongeographicalman's post concerning Dr R D Feltham's submission. I have 'quicky' read the submission and as far as I can see it says exactly what I want to say, plus a great deal more.

Rather than re-invent the wheel, could you please advise if it would it be acceptable/a good idea to copy Dr. Feldman's submission in its entirety and send it to ofcom, at the same time asking Keith's questions?

Thanks Noel

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dorf

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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #220 - Nov 10^th, 2005 at 4:46pm

Hi nthomas,

I do not think it would be a good idea to copy anyone's submission and send it verbatim to Ofcom, since if you do they will just discount it.

The best trick is to use the points and material that you want in other's submissions, but express them in your own words. Then it will seem like your own submission but with similar points which you are making.

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Ofcom are completely ineffectual

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Dave

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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #221 - Nov 10^th, 2005 at 4:56pm

Quote:

The best trick is to use the points and material that you want in other's submissions, but express them in your own words. Then it will seem like your own submission but with similar points which you are making.

I agree dorf. Read some of the responses, form your own opinions (make notes), chew it over and write your own response in your own words.

Remember, it doesn't have to be several pages long, it will be as long as you need it to be to get across all the points you want to make.

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nthomas Newbie Offline Posts: 3	Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION Reply #222 - Nov 10^th, 2005 at 5:36pm Thanks Guys Looks like I can't be lazy, I will have to do the work. Thanks Noel
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Heinz Supreme Member Offline Posts: 1,362 Essex	Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION Reply #223 - Nov 10^th, 2005 at 6:30pm Mine's done now - Dr R D Feltham's submission was a good 'memory jogger' although I couldn't match him/her for grammar and content. Never mind, another susmisison of some substance (some of them are really useless one-liners).
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Sonny

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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #224 - Nov 10^th, 2005 at 7:25pm

"..Ofcom has today published the full research findings and methodology.."

This has been reported in today's The Daily Telegraph under page 5 "In Brief":

Titled:

Customers left in 'automated hell' by businesses.

It then reads:

People telephoning companies with automated queuing systems typically spend 60 seconds being bounced around before they speak to a human being, a study shows. Customers calling big businesses, such as banks, major stores and utility companies, took even longer - spending an average of 95 seconds in "automated menu hell". If the firm has an income-generating 0870 number, it is making money from every customer before they speak to an operator. However, the research by Ofcom, the telephone regulator, found no evidence that firms were keeping people hanging on in order to make money from their calls.

-- end of article --

Can we take this further with T.D.T.? I am happy to try and prepare a response to T.D.T. so that they might consider developing this whole issue further in their columns, provided that someone else is willing to let me bounce a draft off them - please send me a private mail or answer in this thread if you are game. BTW, I am a regular subscriber to T.D.T.

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Sonny

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