Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
SAYNOTO0870.COM

<---- Back to main website

 
Home Help Search Login Register

Pages: 1 ... 16 17 18 19 20 ... 26
Send Topic Print
OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION (Read 387,301 times)
cricketer
Newbie
*
Offline



Posts: 23
Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #255 - Nov 19th, 2005 at 7:47pm
 
For the avoidance of doubt, and to make sure that I am going down the same lines as other repliers, would you be kind enough to let me know if there are any other bits of information that I need to add, including the extra email addresses?

I have no wish to be verbose, but I do not want to miss any MAJOR points.

Number Translation Services: A Way Forward Consultation
Reply emailed to: nts@ofcom.org.uk and   and    and   and   and   and ???

Question 1: Do you agree with our proposal that revenue sharing should no longer be allowed on 0870 calls if the link between 0870 call prices and prices for 01 and 02 geographic calls is restored?
Answer 1: Yes.  I assume that calls to an 0870 number will be included in any carrier ‘tariff packages’ that include free calls to 01 and 02 numbers.

Question 2: In connection with Option B4 and B5, do you agree with Ofcom’s initial view that 0870 calls should be removed from the scope of the NTS Condition if the geographical link between 0870 calls and geographical calls is restored?
Answer 2: No

Question 4: What do you think of our proposal to extend the rules controlling premium-rate services using 09 numbers to include 0871 numbers?
Answer 4: I agree

Question 5: Do you agree we should insist that any adult entertainment services using 08 numbers have to move to the 09 numbers set aside for this type of content?
Answer 5: Yes, apart from freephone 0800 and 0808 numbers.

Question 7: Do you agree that the package of measures we propose to introduce will tackle most of the problems with Number Translation Services? If not, what else do you think we could do and why?
Answer 7: No.  It must be clear to a caller, before they make a call, to a 08, 07 or 09 number what the pence per minute rate will be.

Providing consumers with improved information about Number Translation Services (NTS) and Premium Rate Services (PRS)
Reply emailed to: Geoff.Brighton@ofcom.org.uk and   and    and   and   and   and ???

Question 1: Do you consider that these proposals are reasonable and are likely to be effective in improving the information available to citizens and consumers about Premium Rate Services (PRS)?
Answer 1: No.  It must be clear to a caller, before they make a call to a PRS number what the pence per minute rate will be.

Question 2: Do you consider that these proposals are reasonable and are likely to be effective in improving the information available to citizens and consumers about NTS (Number Translation Services - those numbers beginning 08x/09x) call prices?
Answer 2: No.  It must be clear to a caller, before they make a call to a PRS number what the pence per minute rate will be.

Question 3: Do you agree that there should be mandatory guidelines for codes of practice in dealing with consumer enquiries about Premium Rate Services (09x numbers) and Number Translation Services (084x/087x numbers)?
Answer 3: No.  If it is clear, before a call is made to a NGN, what the pence per minute rate is, then there is little need for dealing with consumer enquiries, as there will be no misunderstanding.

Question 4: Do you believe there are any other options Ofcom should have considered?
Answer 4: Yes.  Simple pricing, readily available, that users can know, so that they can make an informed decision about calling a NGN.

Question 5: Do you agree that landline and mobile network providers’ codes of practice should be available on request and free of charge to their customers?
Answer 5: Yes.

Question 6: Do you agree that the proposed modifications to the code of practice and Dispute Resolution and associated guidelines are sufficient to address the issues relating to NTS (084x/087x numbers) and PRS (09x numbers), described in this consultation?
Answer 6: No.
Back to top
 

Employ TEENAGERS now! &&Get them whilst they know so much!
 
IP Logged
 
electrichero
Newbie
*
Offline



Posts: 2
Gender: male
Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #256 - Nov 20th, 2005 at 11:15pm
 
The bottom line with 0870 numbers is that OFCOM have condoned the surreptitious proliferation in use of these numbers. Why have they allowed the situation to arise without condemnation, knowing that the public are being additionally charged for a service they already pay for.

What excuse is there for using an 0870 number, I don't believe that the appearance of being professional is an excuse (not a reason).  It costs nothing to instigate NTS and there is no excuse to charge for anyone calling a number that is translated, so I don't agree that there is any reason to inform a caller that the call is charged at an alternate rate as there is not reason to charge at a rate other than the standard call rate.

The situation has been supported by OFCOM simply by its continued use.

Note, I notice BBC Watchdog has now reverted to a standard telephone number. I wonder if you complained like I did. Maybe they will do an article on it now they have stopped using 0870 numbers. Now that would be interesting.

Phil
Back to top
« Last Edit: Nov 20th, 2005 at 11:17pm by electrichero »  
 
IP Logged
 
Dave
Global Moderator
*****
Offline



Posts: 9,902
Yorkshire
Gender: male
Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #257 - Nov 21st, 2005 at 6:02pm
 
I don't know whether it's been mentioned yet, but Ofcom has published some research it carried out during the year, since the last consultation. This has been published in [yet another] Ofcom document covering nearly 40 pages. Why didn't it publish this with the consultation? Has anyone actually read this?

From what I've seen of the summary of research in Annex 6, it asks questions like what do consumers think of RS, and how much do they think the calls cost. Complete nonsense as the average consumer cannot understand the ins and outs; the size of the document tells you that!!!

So with those 40 pages, that's nearly 300 pages of consultation/information to read!!  Shocked Shocked

I've started a new thread on it here, this formatting of this research seems to be wrong. There is a blank page so that the contents is on the right, but no blank page between the contents and page 1. The numbering will be in the middle rather than at the edges of the pages.
Back to top
« Last Edit: Nov 21st, 2005 at 6:06pm by Dave »  
 
IP Logged
 
kk
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 354
Gender: male
Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #258 - Nov 22nd, 2005 at 1:24am
 
Hi Cricketer (re your reply No 255)

You may change your reply to Q1, to “NO”, when you dig a bit deeper into Ofcom’s proposals and realise that they intend to allow 0870 to continue at a premium rate of 7p/8p etc.,  provided a caller is given a pre recorded  message.  Most respondents are led to believe that 0870 will be removed to a normal charge band.  Ofcom’s real proposal provides a  loophole for the scam to continue - which it will.  The sort version of Ofcom’s over long and over complex full consultation document does not highlight this fact and is (deliberately?) misleading.

If you have time, take a look at the Ofcom response of  “Feltham R D”  who, amongst others, highlights this fact in robust terms.
Back to top
 

KK
 
IP Logged
 
petec2
Newbie
*
Offline



Posts: 1
Saynoto0870 Hypocrisy
Reply #259 - Nov 24th, 2005 at 5:47am
 
Hello

I admire your campaigns valiant attempt to save consumers money by alleviating the need to call 0870 numbers and advising of alternative geographic numbers.

But some issues need to be highlighted before tarring all sevices/numbers  with the same brush.
Some of these services actually provide content which will otherwise be unavailable at such a low rate in comparison to it's benefits. 0870's are not about revenue generation.

As has been suggested a simpler solution would be to have a timed limit or recorded message advising of call charges at beginnining of call and one at regular intervals every ten minutes or so to give consumers a choice rather than depriving them of the benefits of some of these services.

I understand that people should not be left on hold, but if the duration of their actual call is providing some benefit for a small out lay, ie information service, why shouldn't the number at least pay for the cost of producing/updating the service offered.
It seems it is only since the advent of reduced call charges that people have started to jump on the bandwagon and actively complain as they see a difference in the call charges now.

Admittedly there are some horror stories out there such as being on hold waiting for technical support. I agree this is wrong but this is down to problems with service levels which need addressing within the relevant departments( i know this from personal experience having worked in such a department) ,rather than anything intrinsically wrong with an 0870 numbers rates.

People did actually have a choice to pay a reduced charge monthly fee for broadband in exchange for paying more for their calls when technical support is required, and real premium rate calls are only charged when the caller is connected. Again due to the competitiveness of the telecom market, these charges are being replaced with 0845 numbers, and now I have actually received irate calls from customers who were annoyed at paying 3p per minute for support! God knows what happens when everyone is using VOIP and they have to call a standard geographic number.


So instead of rejoicing over the money they are saving  now due to the competitiveness of the telecom market, they are feeling ripped off. Only a few years ago when BT had a monopoly I was spending hundreds of pounds per quarter more than I am now,so the savings due to local loop unbundling etc have initiated a competitive market and effectively make any calls i may make to some very worthwhile 'premium rate' services 'Free'!

I do not actually derive any monetary benefit out of 0870 numbers at present, but had planned to offer a valuable information service using voice recognised technology,so that there would be NO waiting. However i will be unable to offer this service because organisations like saynoto0870  seem keen on cancelling out any potential return which may cover the cost of the technology involved to provide  and update the service. Either by elimination of revenue altogether or by a compulsory warning of 'National Premium Rate' which they are not. This will only confuse the customer.

All this whilst generating revenue yourselves on the saynoto0870.com website by advertising 0870 co's and their offers to make money on calls via their numbers on your website using google advertising.

A bit hypocritical don't you think ! (Below the send button on the contact page , believe it or not) http://www.saynoto0870.com/contact/

Best Regards

Peter Callender

Newcastle upon Tyne

Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
beginner
Newbie
*
Offline



Posts: 41
Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #260 - Nov 24th, 2005 at 7:09am
 
Peter,
If you are intending to offer some 'value' service, then why not on an 09 number??
The customers will then BE AWARE you are charging them extra for your 'service' and can make a choice.
The objection to 0870 is that it is a covert premium rate where, (because of the use of terms like 'national, local, LoCall, etc), customers have been totally bemused and thus wide open to fraud.
To have only 09 as a prefix for revenue share would solve the confusion.  Then all 08xx would be 'normal', and could be included in normal 'packages', any 09xx would mean extra cost - simple.
We are not wanting to stop your income, just make it transparent that a service is being charged for!
Back to top
« Last Edit: Nov 24th, 2005 at 7:10am by beginner »  
 
IP Logged
 
beginner
Newbie
*
Offline



Posts: 41
Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #261 - Nov 24th, 2005 at 7:13am
 
And, Peter, the 'old chestnut' about advertising 0870 numbers on this site has been raised and discussed and explained on many posts.  Have a look.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Sonny
Newbie
*
Offline



Posts: 22
Re: Saynoto0870 Hypocrisy
Reply #262 - Nov 24th, 2005 at 8:17am
 
petec2 wrote on Nov 24th, 2005 at 5:47am:
Hello

I admire your campaigns valiant attempt to save consumers money by alleviating the need to call 0870 numbers and advising of alternative geographic numbers.
Best Regards

Peter Callender

Newcastle upon Tyne


Peter
The "valiant attempt" to which you refer saves me £80 per year in 0870/0845 call charges.  SAYNOTO0870's service does not cost me a penny.
Enough said, my good friend.
Sonny
Back to top
 

Sonny
 
IP Logged
 
paulspeller
Newbie
*
Offline



Posts: 1
Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #263 - Nov 24th, 2005 at 3:05pm
 
Hi,

I'm new here and most impressed with your site/service and all this information.

I have a quick query about this consultation. I apologise if it's already been answered - I've been skimming through this 18-page thread and couldn't find it but I hope you'll appreciate it's a bit of a daunting reading task and let me off if I've overlooked it Smiley

I was just wondering, with respect to the proposed 0870 number changes (bringing their costs in line with geographical national numbers), if anyone knew approximately when this change would happen (if approved)? I think I saw it say there would be a one-year transition period but I wasn't sure when that would start (and therefore when it would end).

Apologies again if this is a silly/repeated question! Thanks in advance for any help you can offer.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
gdh82
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 226
Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #264 - Nov 24th, 2005 at 3:19pm
 
Quote:
I was just wondering, with respect to the proposed 0870 number changes (bringing their costs in line with geographical national numbers), if anyone knew approximately when this change would happen (if approved)? I think I saw it say there would be a one-year transition period but I wasn't sure when that would start (and therefore when it would end).


No, Paul, this is a very good question.

As I understand it, the soonest this proposal could come in is Spring 2007, which is 12 months after the current consultation reports (expected next spring).

The 'headline' of ending revenue sharing on 0870s is, however, misleading and I believe is subject to a key condition.  Others will correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe these proposals include a very significant loophole - if a company wishes to continue using 0870 AND charge more than the geographic rate, then it must include a cost annoucement at the beginning of the call!!!!!  Yeah, kind of undermines the whole proposal if you ask me ! Cry
Back to top
 

There's more of us that them, stick together and challenge 0870/0845 etc etc
 
IP Logged
 
AJR
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 107
Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #265 - Nov 24th, 2005 at 4:47pm
 
I've been puzzling over this clause and I'm not sure I understand how it would work.

Could someone correct me if I'm wrong? The way I've understood this is that the decision about how to charge 0870 would rest with the phone operator ie BT, Telewest, Onetel, 1899. They could decide to continue charging at 8p per minute as long as they make an announcement about the cost.

Companies that use these 0870 numbers ie British Gas, DVLA, Alliance & Leicester and so on, will get a share of the revenue if the phone operator sticks at 8p and makes the announcement. But if another operator, such as 1899, cuts its charge for 0870 calls to the standard rate for geographic calls (ie 3p per call) there will be no extra revenue to pass on to the company called.

So take an example where BT sticks to 8p but 1899 reverts to its 3p per call with no time charge, as for its geographic calls. If you use BT and you call British Gas you'll be paying 8p per minute and British Gas will take a cut. But if you use 1899 and you call British Gas, you'll be paying a fixed 3p and British Gas will get nothing.

So if you care about how much you pay for this type of call you'll pretty soon switch away from BT and use 1899 instead. The resulting loss of business will eventually (about 10 years if competition from Mercury in the 1990s is anything to go by!) force BT to cut its prices to match 1899.

Is this right? Or have I misunderstood how this would work?
Back to top
« Last Edit: Nov 24th, 2005 at 4:49pm by AJR »  
 
IP Logged
 
Dave
Global Moderator
*****
Offline



Posts: 9,902
Yorkshire
Gender: male
Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #266 - Nov 24th, 2005 at 8:48pm
 
AJR wrote on Nov 24th, 2005 at 4:47pm:
Could someone correct me if I'm wrong? The way I've understood this is that the decision about how to charge 0870 would rest with the phone operator ie BT, Telewest, Onetel, 1899. ...

That is correct AJR. All 0870 numbers will be charged at the same rate on any particular tariff, just as they are now.

Quote:
...They could decide to continue charging at 8p per minute as long as they make an announcement about the cost.

Presumably they could charge whatever rate they wanted, just like mobile providers charge for freephone numbers now.

Quote:
Companies that use these 0870 numbers ie British Gas, DVLA, Alliance & Leicester and so on, will get a share of the revenue if the phone operator sticks at 8p and makes the announcement.

I disagree with that. There is nothing in the document that suggests that will happen or will be able to happen.

Thinking about it logically, for that to happen there would have to be an agreement where the originating provider (ie the telco the caller makes their calls with) pays the 0870 telco. Why would they want to do that? The originating provider wants to keep the price to the caller as low as possible anyway.

I think with BT charging geographical rates for 0870, other (landline) providers will have to follow suit. Can you really see another telco charging more for 0870 than geographical?
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
kk
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 354
Gender: male
Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #267 - Nov 27th, 2005 at 4:58pm
 
Regarding Ofcom’s  two sets of proposals for consultation.

“Number Translation Services: A Way Forward” and
“Improved Consumer Information about NTS & PRS”

For each consultation, Ofcom have produced a full consultation document, a summary “in plain English” and a set of consultation questions.

The full consultation documents, by their length and complex construction are unintelligible to most readers unless they are willing to spend a week or so poring over the document and related references. When I read them, I was left wondering if I has lost my sense of reason.

The short summary “in Plain English”  leaves out vital information as to the general thrust and intent of the full document, and can not claim to be a summary, but a misleading statement of Ofcom’s true intentions. This is the document on which most will rely as an aid to answering the consultation questions.

The consultation questions, which Ofcom will use to support its findings, are misleading and are designed to produce answers compatible with Ofcom’s proposals.

Question 1: (from “NTS:  A Way Forward”)  Do you agree with our proposal that revenue sharing should no longer be allowed on 0870 calls if the link between 0870 call prices and prices for 01 and 02 geographic calls is restored?

On the face of it, the obvious answer is “yes”.  But few respondent (except the well informed) will realise that Ofcom’s intends to allow 0870 to continue to be charged at 7p, or so, provided the organisation makes an announcement as to cost. This will negate the whole purpose of the proposal and the absence of the mention of this essential loophole in both the summary document and the questionnaire, renders the consultation pointless and bogus.      

Why is an “if” needed in the middle of the question - it should be an “and”.

Does  “... link between 0870 call prices and prices for 01 and 02 geographic calls is restored?”  mean that customers using “BT Option 3" or “Call1899" etc. will be charges 0p/min for the call, or will they be charged 3p/min.

My short comments on the rest of the proposals:

0871 should be changed to an “09" premium number, as should ANY number which charges more than the consumers normal rate.  

0845 should be restored to the same pricing as 01 and 02. (0p/min for Option 3 etc).

0844 should be restored to the same pricing as 01 and 02 (0p/min for Option 3 etc).  
(0844 numbers cost more than 0870 numbers during off peak periods and cost more than 0870 numbers, at all times, from a pay-phone and are just as evil, or more so, than 0870 numbers).

The fact that some 084x numbers are used for internet dial-up, should not be used as an bogus excuse for failing to moving 084x (voice) numbers to the 01 and 02 class of call charges.  The sets of 084x  numbers used for internet dial-up could continue to be an exception to the general rule.

As for the consultation on “Improved consumer Information about NTS and PRS” the solution is simple and clear.  

All calls that charge more than a customers normal rate ("normal rate" including Option 3 etc at 0p/min) should be reclassified as a premium rate numbers and be consigned to the  “09" classification, with a pre announcement and warning as to cost.  Keep it simple.

If you have sent Ofcom a response to the Ofcom Proposals, and after further consideration you feel that you have further comments to make,  
send in a second amended response.


KK                        

Back to top
« Last Edit: Nov 27th, 2005 at 5:03pm by kk »  

KK
 
IP Logged
 
Dave
Global Moderator
*****
Offline



Posts: 9,902
Yorkshire
Gender: male
Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #268 - Nov 27th, 2005 at 5:38pm
 
kk wrote on Nov 27th, 2005 at 4:58pm:
Question 1: (from “NTS:  A Way Forward”)  Do you agree with our proposal that revenue sharing should no longer be allowed on 0870 calls if the link between 0870 call prices and prices for 01 and 02 geographic calls is restored?

On the face of it, the obvious answer is “yes”.  But few respondent (except the well informed) will realise that Ofcom’s intends to allow 0870 to continue to be charged at 7p, or so, provided the organisation makes an announcement as to cost. This will negate the whole purpose of the proposal and the absence of the mention of this essential loophole in both the summary document and the questionnaire, renders the consultation pointless and bogus.

kk, I think that you have misunderstood Ofcom's proposals here. It is the telco (eg TalkTalk, BT, Onetel, NTL) who will decide if it wants to charge more than the geographical rate and not the company operating on the number.

So if, for example, Vodafone decided to charge above the rate of a call to a geographical number for all 0870 numbers then it would have to make an announcement.

This does not allow service providers (eg British Gas, DVLA, Sky) to say that they want their 0870 charged at a higher rate. So all 0870 numbers will be charged at the same rate on any one particular tariff (as they are now).
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
kk
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 354
Gender: male
Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #269 - Nov 28th, 2005 at 10:13am
 
Hi Dave

Re my post #267 and your comment #268

Your comment may well be true, but an organization wishing to charge for 0870,  only needs to change to, or join, a telecom provider that offers that service to maintain the scam.  In effect it is the organisation who decides.  Your comment does have force, if all telecom providers refuse to offer revenue sharing on 0870.
Back to top
 

KK
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 ... 16 17 18 19 20 ... 26
Send Topic Print
(Moderators: Dave, bbb_uk, Forum Admin, CJT-80, DaveM)

Website and Content © 1999-2024 SAYNOTO0870.COM. All Rights Reserved.
Written permission is required to duplicate any of the content within this site.

WARNING: This is an open forum, posts are NOT endorsed by SAYNOTO0870.COM,
please exercise due caution when acting on any info from here.


SAYNOTO0870.COM » Powered by YaBB 2.5.2!
YaBB Forum Software © 2000-2024. All Rights Reserved.


Valid RSS Valid XHTML Valid CSS Powered by Perl Source Forge