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OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION (Read 387,328 times)
idb
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #285 - Dec 10th, 2005 at 3:02am
 
Quote:
For instance this one from Neil Sherring of Windsor Telecom who writes to Clive Hillier and Gareth Davies as Dear Clive/Gareth and who has also been tipped off by the said gentlemen it would appear about our representation at the Ofcom meeting:-

www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/nts_forward/responses/sz/WindsorTelecom.pdf
A disgraceful response. One of the first paragraphs states:

<<
Firstly it must be made clear that consumers do have a choice as to whether or not they decide to dial non-geographic numbers (79% of the research sample agreed with this). In the commercial sector, consumers can choose to dial alternative suppliers. In the public sector there are ways to source the underlying ‘geographic’ number. In fact many bodies will provide consumers with alternative numbers on request.
>>

Pure BS. Downright lies, so beloved by the NTS scammers.

More garbage:

<<
The second question is ‘Can 0871 numbers be dialled from abroad?’ Of course they cannot. How will businesses that rely predominantly on international trade continue to succeed if they are forced to
migrate onto a 0871 main contact number? It will not look professional if a 0871 number is advertised internationally and callers cannot be connected.
>>

Well, WT, I live abroad, and can't even call the wretched 0870 numbers, let alone your extreme rip-off 0871 variants. Foreign networks will generally treat any +44 8 number in exactly the same way and will charge, assuming termination is possible, a +44 871 number exactly the same as a +44 844 number.

Windsor may be able to fool Ofcom with this crap, but it can't fool me! Why do the responses from the majority of NTS suppliers appear to be written by people that do not seem to be particularly intelligent?
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idb
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #286 - Dec 10th, 2005 at 3:46am
 
http://www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/nts_forward/responses/mr/RedstoneTelecom...

<<
However, the way to address this is not by forcing a re-alignment with local or national call rates. A better approach would be to provide more measures to ensure consumers (and their elected representatives) are aware of the cost of the calls and of the revenue sharing model. This means more consumer education and better public relations activity (jointly by Ofcom and the industry) to ensure they are aware of the costs, and the benefits the revenue sharing model brings to them by enabling the service provider to offer the service more cheaply, or in many cases, by enabling them to offer any such service in the first place. Redstone supports the proposal to ensure that these numbers can no longer be marketed as being ‘local rate calls or ‘national rate calls”. Redstone is happy to support proposals which would mean that consumers are aware, before they start paying for the call, of the likely cost of that call.
>>

No, no, no Redstone. The consumer is not interested in the revenue-sharing model (as illustrated by the overwhelming rejection in the public's response to NTS Way Forward). All we want is to be able to carry out our day-to-day calling without having to pay $8 per hour for contacting our bank or TV provider. It really is that simple. Try to understand this as it is not a complex concept.

Exactly what benefit does Sky's 0870 number offer to consumers where a typical wait can be over sixty minutes? I see no benefit as a consumer, but the NTS provider/scammer will obviously receive a significant benefit.

Cut the BS please.
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« Last Edit: Dec 10th, 2005 at 3:48am by idb »  

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idb
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #287 - Dec 10th, 2005 at 4:02am
 
And even more from Redstone:

<<
Redstone does not believe that there is an issue with revenue sharing on 08 numbers, providing this is understood by consumers. We do not believe that there is an issue with long Call Centre waiting time. Redstone understands the concerns about the use of NTS numbers by essential public services, but believes that there is a role for the use of these numbers in the public sector, providing they are used appropriately.
>>

Unbelievable! They really are out of touch with the wishes of the public. Long call center wait times not an issue? Are these people brainwashed?
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #288 - Dec 10th, 2005 at 4:09am
 
I find it somewhat depressing reading the responses from two charities, the RNID and the RSPCA who both indicate a preference for a continuance of the NTS model to generate revenue. These two charities, that both do excellent work, find it necessary to exploit potential callers. It is doubly sad in that they themselves have been exploited by their NTS providers. I just can't take any organization that uses 0870 seriously and therefore, even though I may potentially wish to contribute, the use of NTS indicates to me that my wishes are irrelevant, and that overrides a desire to support the orgz. 0870 equates to cluelessness and deceit. Perhaps a little extreme, but that's the way it is.
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #289 - Dec 10th, 2005 at 12:47pm
 
The Vodafone response is a total disgrace, yet to be expected by this greedy company. At least BT recognizes the public concerns about NTS, and goes some way to meet such concerns. Vodafone is only concerned about its revenue. As one of the biggest scammers in terms of charges for terminating the public's calls, it stands to lose a lot of money if Ofcom's proposals are carried out. What a shame.
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #290 - Dec 10th, 2005 at 12:56pm
 
Clearly the people at Windsor Telecom like playing with statistics. The fact that 70% of people are unaware of revenue sharing taking place shows that their illusion works for the majority.

More on Redstone and the 'services' operated on its numbers on Grumbletext.

I think there is growing concern amongst the smaller terminating telcos (that are those who provide the non-geographical numbers). It is my opinion that the RS model has allowed/drawn those companies into the marketplace at the direct expense of the consumer.
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NonGeographicalMan
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #291 - Dec 10th, 2005 at 1:01pm
 
idb wrote on Dec 10th, 2005 at 12:47pm:
The Vodafone response is a total disgrace, yet to be expected by this greedy company. At least BT recognizes the public concerns about NTS, and goes some way to meet such concerns. Vodafone is only concerned about its revenue. As one of the biggest scammers in terms of charges for terminating the public's calls, it stands to lose a lot of money if Ofcom's proposals are carried out. What a shame.


As I highlighted in my response to the "More Information for Consumers" etc Ofcom consultation Vodafone is one of the main reasons such a consultation is necessary and also why all disclosure rules should be statutory and involve large fines for breaches.

Vodafone refuses to provide any sort of call by call cost itemisation for its Pay as You Go customers and even on request or in return for payment you cannot get a properly itemised bill from Vodafone on Pay as You Go if you dispute the reduction in your calling credit.  All they send is a meaningless computer dump (and then only after going to their Chief Executive) separated by control characters which it is impossible to interpret.

Also following a letter to their Chief Exec complaining about 0845 and 0870 charges not being displayed my letter was referred to some female numbskull in customer services who told me there was no separate listing on their website as these calls cost the same as other 01/02 calls.  Only when I pressed the issue again on the phone was I connected to a person in their "Technical" department who knew all their 084/7 NTS rates.
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #292 - Dec 10th, 2005 at 1:10pm
 
Quote:
Vodafone refuses to provide any sort of call by call cost itemisation for its Pay as You Go customers and even on request or in return for payment you cannot get a properly itemised bill from Vodafone on Pay as You Go if you dispute the reduction in your calling credit.  [...]

Also following a letter to their Chief Exec complaining about 0845 and 0870 charges not being displayed my letter was referred to some female numbskull in customer services who told me there was no separate listing on their website as these calls cost the same as other 01/02 calls.  Only when I pressed the issue again on the phone was I connected to a person in their "Technical" department who knew all their 084/7 NTS rates.

Two other areas Ofcom must get to work on to have a fair marketplace.

Pay as you go mobiles don't just benefit the telcos by getting their customer's money first, they are also good at hiding call charges. Of course, no-one at Ofcom has twigged onto this one because they won't be using PAYG!

Pricing information is another area. FleXtel seem to put in good responses to "Way forward" and the Personal Number one that criticise Ofcom for not enforcing price transparency.

The whole industry seems to be built on weak regulation. The fact that most are unaware seems to make it OK, to those telcos who are taking advantage, at least.
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #293 - Dec 10th, 2005 at 1:37pm
 
idb wrote on Dec 10th, 2005 at 4:09am:
I find it somewhat depressing reading the responses from two charities, the RNID and the RSPCA who both indicate a preference for a continuance of the NTS model to generate revenue. ...

They should use a 09 premium rate number then!

Whilst I can understand that they don't want to have to pay for NTS, they can't have their cake and eat it! Do they not understand that the current setup allows telcos to charge pretty much a fixed price, therefore there are no market forces driving down these prices? Do they not understand that typical revenue payments would be a tiny proportion of the overall call cost and that they (as a charity) are forcing their donors to line the pockets of their telco?
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #294 - Dec 10th, 2005 at 1:50pm
 
Dave wrote on Dec 10th, 2005 at 1:37pm:
Whilst I can understand that they don't want to have to pay for NTS, they can't have their cake and eat it! Do they not understand that the current setup allows telcos to charge pretty much a fixed price, therefore there are no market forces driving down these prices? Do they not understand that typical revenue payments would be a tiny proportion of the overall call cost and that they (as a charity) are forcing their donors to line the pockets of their telco?


The key issue seems to be that again due to massive failure and incompetence by OFTEL and now by Ofcom there is no NGN code with NTS facilities on the PSTN network.

Were there to have always been an NGN code with normal geographic call charges and no revenue share or micro payments then the number owner would merely have been charged a reasonable fee for the range of NGN facilities they used.  And because they were paying the bill prices would have been driven as low as possible by market forces.

But with the NGN system we have bodies like the RSPCA who perceive they get the service for free and this allows the telcos to trouser massive extortionate charges for providing the NGN facilities quite out of proportion to the underlying costs and a healthy profit margin.  Unfortunately people like the RSPCA seem to have people of limited intelligence and vision with purely selfish motivations running these telecoms systems, who don't seem capabale of looking at the bigger issues.
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NonGeographicalMan
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #295 - Dec 10th, 2005 at 2:04pm
 
So where are the responses to these consultations from Daniel - or Martin Lewis then?  They are not published so far on the Ofcom website. Shocked  Or do Ofcom still have some left to publish (they only published my responses and BT's on Friday evening)?  I can see no possible reason for either Messrs Lewis or - asking for their Name to be Withheld on their Response? Roll Eyes

Also Dave perhaps you could let some of your old friends on here know by PM which is your response to the consultation since you would have obviously submitted something very worthwhile.

I see Messrs - and Lewis didn't respond to the previous NTS: Options for the Future or Call Termination Market Review consultations either did they? Smiley

Can we please have a statement from Daniel about what has happened to his consultation response?
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #296 - Dec 10th, 2005 at 2:27pm
 
Quote:
Can we please have a statement from Daniel about what has happened to his consultation response?
Irrespective of whether he has submitted a response in his own name, I find it very surprising that a generic response from saynoto0870.com has not been provided. As a campaigning body (or a bunch of anarchists as one NTS scammer described it), it is vital that a 'corporate' response is submitted. So far, nothing. Remember that Ofcom will, to its credit, entertain late responses, so the DEc 6 deadline, whilst passed, is not to be taken literally.

Straight question - will there be a sayno submission? Yes or no?
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NonGeographicalMan
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #297 - Dec 10th, 2005 at 3:15pm
 
idb wrote on Dec 10th, 2005 at 2:27pm:
Irrespective of whether he has submitted a response in his own name, I find it very surprising that a generic response from saynoto0870.com has not been provided. As a campaigning body (or a bunch of anarchists as one NTS scammer described it), it is vital that a 'corporate' response is submitted. So far, nothing. Remember that Ofcom will, to its credit, entertain late responses, so the DEc 6 deadline, whilst passed, is not to be taken literally.

Straight question - will there be a sayno submission? Yes or no?

I have reminded the Communications Director of Ofcom about their late response tolerance in respect of its own Consumer Panel, which is in danger of being severely embarassed.

On the point of a SayNoto0870 response that is an impossibility as things stand as we are purely a grass roots movement bound together by website postings and we do not have any of the formal quarterly meetings or AGMs or membership fees so essential to forming a corporate body.  If such a body was formed it would need to become more than SayNoto0870 and become a Consumer pressure group on all telecoms issues.

I also think that as most of our supporters who just look up alternate numbers on this site (but do not post in the forum much or at all) clearly do not consider the matters with the same intellectual rigour as you or I that we should have given them a much clearer message not to answer any of Ofcom's questions (which were rigged) and to instead make our own points on issues such as there being no suggestion to move 0871 and 0844 to 09 and failing to make 0845 geographic rate at the saem time as 0870.  But unfortunately instead a whole lot of rather thoughtless Yes, Yes, Yes responses just using the Plain English questionnaire have been sent that don't achieve very much.  In my opinion only the ones that express opinions of their own should really be counted by Ofcom.  The other ones are from people who are against 0870 but don't understand the comeplexity of the issues or how to express their views on them.

So long as we don't have any AGMs or quarterly meetings etc then inevitably this website is to a large extent anarchic in the conventional sense and there cannot be an overall SayNoto0870 view.
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« Last Edit: Dec 10th, 2005 at 3:16pm by N/A »  
 
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idb
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #298 - Dec 10th, 2005 at 3:20pm
 
Quote:
So long as we don't have any AGMs or quarterly meetings etc then inevitably this website is to a large extent anarchic in the conventional sense and there cannot be an overall SayNoto0870 view.
On reflection, you're probably right. It would have been nice to have an overall response, but I agree the absence of a structure makes this impossible.
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NonGeographicalMan
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #299 - Dec 10th, 2005 at 3:36pm
 
idb wrote on Dec 10th, 2005 at 3:20pm:
On reflection, you're probably right. It would have been nice to have an overall response, but I agree the absence of a structure makes this impossible.


In effect the only view possible as SayNoto0870 would have been one from Daniel who owns the site.  It is my understanding that Daniel, Dave and DaveM have never met one another in person.
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