SAYNOTO0870.COM - OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS

Dave

Global Moderator

Offline

Posts: 9,902
Yorkshire
Gender: male

Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #330 - Dec 16^th, 2005 at 5:04pm

bbb_uk wrote on Dec 16^th, 2005 at 4:51pm:

Just imagine what would happen if companies/gov depts had to provide an announcement that they are "making x pence per minute"? [...]

Those companies that belong to UKCTA should have thought more about being upfront in the first place, then the consumer couldn't 'misunderstand' that these companies need this revenue. Consumers would decide whether they want to use such services based on the freely available knowledge that the companies concerned make money from the phone call.

Back to top

IP Logged

NonGeographicalMan

Ex Member

Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #331 - Dec 20^th, 2005 at 9:46am

I just wanted to draw the attention of everyone subscribed to this thread to the new thread I have just started about the 3 Ofcom consultations that close this Thursday 22nd Dec and that all have issues relevant to members of this site.

This thread can be found here:-

www.saynoto0870.com/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.cgi?num=1135070399

We really need as many as possible of you to send brief but hard hitting responses to these three consultations.

The key issue is why has Ofcom sliced up what should have been one consultation on clearer pricing information and the National Telephone Number Plan (NTNP) in to no less than 6 different consultations closing on different dates across two months? Shocked

The disgraceful ill thought out proposals on the new non standard priced Police 101 number needs to be opposed particularly vigorously.

Back to top

« Last Edit: Dec 20^th, 2005 at 9:49am by N/A »

IP Logged

Ama

Newbie

Offline

Posts: 3

Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #332 - Jan 21^st, 2006 at 11:14am

Hi everybody,

I am a newby on here but not new to the 0870 and related scams. What I do not understand is why after all of the evident campaigning and the fact that several of the regular contributors here went to an Ofcom meeting we do not seem to be any further forward now in seeing an end to all of these tricks and rip-offs. We see Ofcom now even evidently patting Patientline on the head and saying in effect you are doing nothing wrong in blatantly abusing the substance and complete spirit of 07 PNS numbers, and we aren't going to do anything to stop you continuing to con sick and injured people and their friends and relatives. The hospitals of course support this by banning the use of mobile phones.

I get the impression that most of the people who discuss things here have drifted into the issue becoming a sort of hobby - something interesting to discuss and moan on about, but never actively doing much if anything to campaign actively and vigourously for change and correction? I do not have much sympathy with that viewpoint. I think if people are cross about these things they should be actively campaigning to get change and see wrong corrected. I sincerely believe that all of these telephone tricks being used today are wrong - morally wrong. In fact I honestly believe that most of them are actually also illegal in the real sense since they are an offence under the current Human Rights legislation in addition to mostly being based on confidence tricks which themselves are a contravention of existing UK laws.

It seems to me that instead of addressing Ofcom at all, or wasting time and effort with any of their consultations or whatever, those concerned should be concentrating on the legal issues and trying to get justice? Now it may be that I do not properly understand the issues, but I do not think so. I appreciate that as a newby on here my views may be unpopular because some may think that I am criticising their efforts so far. That is not what I mean to do. I just mean to address the reality that all the time and effort spent so far has achieved absolutely nothing whatever, as far as the general public can see. So if as we can see that has achieved nothing then surely a completely new attack is now required, since the previous approach was fundamentally flawed?

I am sorry if I have put this in the wrong topic, but it seems to be connected in that the interaction with Ofcom is ahieving absolutely nothing. Don't get me wrong. I did also respond to some of the Ofcom consultations - but I will not be doing so again, since I think now it is pointless. Again forgive anything which I said which may seem to be critical. It is not meant in that way.

Back to top

IP Logged

NonGeographicalMan

Ex Member

Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #333 - Jan 21^st, 2006 at 11:28am

Ama wrote on Jan 21^st, 2006 at 11:14am:

I am a newby on here but not new to the 0870 and related scams.

I get the impression that most of the people who discuss things here have drifted into the issue becoming a sort of hobby - something interesting to discuss and moan on about, but never actively doing much if anything to campaign actively and vigourously for change and correction? I do not have much sympathy with that viewpoint. I think if people are cross about these things they should be actively campaigning to get change and see wrong corrected.

Again forgive anything which I said which may seem to be critical. It is not meant in that way.

I thought of responding to your post on a point to point basis but is so totally out of order that I can't be bothered. As for it not meaning to be too critical it seems that you didn't bother to read or edit what you wrote before posting then.

We campaign with MPs, we campaign with Ofcom, we provide information to newspapers. Some of us even get the use of these numbers banned in those places where we have the power to do such as on the district council that we are councillors on. We try to feed the press but the press often find the issue too technically complex for the average sensationalist oriented journalist to grasp. There are however notable exceptions.

I cannot think of anything more that could be done than what members of this forum have already done that is still legal. As to your suggestions about legal action well why don't you take your cases in the county court and see just how far you get with them then........

The primary reason nothing changes is because the New Labour apparatus is behind the majority of these scams as per Patientline. If New Labour had wanted these scams stopped they would have given Ofcom the power to do so but instead they muzzle it by putting Stephen Carte and David Currie at the top who think business should be given a free reign to continue to scam in whatever way it finds most convenient.

If you want to be the man to get more notoriety for the anti 0870 campaign by pelting Tony Blair and Tessa Jowell with rotten eggs by all means go ahead. However the rest of us have to continue to operate within the confines of what is actually legal and respectable.

Back to top

IP Logged

Ama

Newbie

Offline

Posts: 3

Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #334 - Jan 21^st, 2006 at 11:43am

I am sorry that you have taken my points in the wrong way. I did make it quite clear that I did not mean to be critical.

I do understand that there are many difficulties and I understand the predominant participation of New Labour in all of this. In my opinion they are the principal proponents of deciept in the current scenario in the UK in pratically everything. They are the direct agents of The Great Deceiver himself, but most have been fooled so far by them, which is why they have managed to continue for three terms. I somehow doubt whether sufficient of the electorate will continue to be fooled however, since the truth is now increasingly showing through, nowhere more so than with all of the telephone scams and tricks which are allowed to proliferate unfettered. However I stand by my point that many of the tricks of New Labour, some of the laws which they have passed and these telephpone scams and tricks are a direct abuse of the current Human rights legeislation and could be addressed as such.

Finally, I must admit to you that I am not a man but a woman. I am not like so many of todays women ashamed of being a woman, and wishing that I could be a man instead. I am proud to be woman and glad that that is the way I was born.

Back to top

IP Logged

NonGeographicalMan

Ex Member

Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #335 - Jan 21^st, 2006 at 11:57am

Ama wrote on Jan 21^st, 2006 at 11:43am:

Finally, I must admit to you that I am not a man but a woman. I am not like so many of todays women ashamed of being a woman, and wishing that I could be a man instead. I am proud to be woman and glad that that is the way I was born.

Dear Ama,

I rather get the impression that most women today are in fact extremely proud of being women and I often think it is rather us the men who have to apologise for what we are. Surely the time when women may have yearned to be men most strongly was in fack back in Victorian England and/or in much earlier times still?

ALthough you may not have meant to be very critical your post was nonetheless highly critical. If we have not achieved anything so far then why does this web site now receive so many hits a day from people who look up the alternatives to 084/7 numbers and why do the people who operate these scam lines now find themselves inundated with compalints about them and also slowly but surely are forced to desist from their misleading advertising that these numbers are local rate and national rate.

I note your claims about Human Rights Legislation and if you are a lawyers I wish you the best of luck in pursuing the issue via that mechanism. However I really do think that to expect a major victory in the Court of Human Rights over a telecoms tariff issue is pushing the bounds of crdibility except where that tariff is so high as to have possible real human rights consequences of denying the right to communciate. Thus in my view the only one of these abuses that could be easily challenged under Human Rights Legislation are the hospital phone line scams run by Patientline and Premier. The level of charges here are such as to actually deny the ability to communicate with sick relatives for poorer people on most reasonable definitions.

Also as you will know pursuing a claim under the European Convention of Human Rights is an extemely time consuming and extremely lengthy path to follow.

Back to top

IP Logged

trevord

Full Member

Offline

Posts: 248
West Sussex, UK
Gender: male

Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #336 - Jan 21^st, 2006 at 12:34pm

Ama wrote on Jan 21^st, 2006 at 11:43am:

Finally, I must admit to you that I am not a man but a woman. I am not like so many of todays women ashamed of being a woman, and wishing that I could be a man instead. I am proud to be woman and glad that that is the way I was born.

If you wish to avoid this misunderstanding happening again, you could indicate your gender in the Member Profile section, so that it shows up on each post.

Back to top

IP Logged

kk

Senior Member

Offline

Posts: 354
Gender: male

Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #337 - Jan 23^rd, 2006 at 12:34am

Hi Ama

The Human Rights Act 1998 (HRA) incorporated most of the European Convention on Human Rights into UK law. In practice this means that most of the Convention can be cited in ANY UK court without the need to take the matter to the Court of Human Rights located in Strasbourg, France.

You can only take direct action (under the HRA) against a public body. Ofcom is a public body, BT is not.

The HRA can not be used directly against a non-public body, firm or individual (a PLC is not a public body). But the HRA can be used indirectly, as all UK legislation has to be interpreted, as far as possible, to be compatible with the HRA.

What Article in the HRA do you consider has been breached and by whom?

All new ideas are welcome. What other action do you propose?

Back to top

« Last Edit: Jan 23^rd, 2006 at 12:41am by kk »

KK

IP Logged

NonGeographicalMan

Ex Member

Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #338 - Jan 23^rd, 2006 at 1:00am

kk wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2006 at 12:34am:

You can only take direct action (under the HRA) against a public body. Ofcom is a public body, BT is not.

So Ofcom are legally accountable after all.

Ofcom's pathetic failure to act directly to stop the Patientline scam in its tracks should make for an interesting test case under the EU Human Rights Legislation and charters. Wink

Back to top

« Last Edit: Jan 23^rd, 2006 at 1:01am by N/A »

IP Logged

kk Senior Member Offline Posts: 354 Gender:	Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION Reply #339 - Jan 23^rd, 2006 at 1:14am Hi NGM, Just a small point. The European Court of Human Rights, located in Strasbourg, France, is NOT part of the EU. The word “European” in the context of the Human Rights Convention covers far more countries than the EU.
Back to top	KK IP Logged

NonGeographicalMan

Ex Member

Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #340 - Jan 23^rd, 2006 at 1:45am

kk wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2006 at 1:14am:

The European Court of Human Rights, located in Strasbourg, France, is NOT part of the EU. The word “European” in the context of the Human Rights Convention covers far more countries than the EU.

kk,

Thanks for this information but surely it must be easier for a non EU member to stick up two fingers at the Court if it doesn't like one of its judgements?

Back to top

IP Logged

Cornucopia

Newbie

Offline

Posts: 1

Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #341 - Feb 10^th, 2006 at 10:27pm

I have mixed views about what more can be done.

A couple of years ago I made a complaint to the Advertising Standards Authority that is acknowledged to be a landmark case in changing their policy towards bogus competitions (using premium rate participation lines). This complaint was against one of the largest companies involved: Thus plc. All the major points were upheld, and I and other people, including serveral Trading Standards depts followed this up with similar complaints about smaller operators.

A few years on and the OFT is finally acting to shut down the operations of many of these companies, since they have generally chosen to ignore the ASA and ICSTIS.

What happens, though? Loads more companies come in, tweak the operations slightly and off we go again. I think I done my bit - if the authorities don't care about this issue and do not want to take pro-active action, ultiimately what can an individual do?

We have managed to turn the country into a place of negotiable integrity - the dismissive responses of many large activities to the work of this forum is testament to that. The answer is to hope that a new government under Cameron or Brown takes the issue of consumer protection more seriously, but I'm not hopeful.

Back to top

IP Logged

DonQuixote

Newbie

Offline

Posts: 36
North of the Ivory Towers
Gender: male

Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #342 - Feb 12^th, 2006 at 10:00pm

Dave wrote on Dec 10^th, 2005 at 1:10pm:

Quote:

Vodafone refuses to provide any sort of call by call cost itemisation for its Pay as You Go customers and even on request or in return for payment you cannot get a properly itemised bill from Vodafone on Pay as You Go if you dispute the reduction in your calling credit. [...]

Also following a letter to their Chief Exec complaining about 0845 and 0870 charges not being displayed my letter was referred to some female numbskull in customer services who told me there was no separate listing on their website as these calls cost the same as other 01/02 calls. Only when I pressed the issue again on the phone was I connected to a person in their "Technical" department who knew all their 084/7 NTS rates.

Two other areas Ofcom must get to work on to have a fair marketplace.

Pay as you go mobiles don't just benefit the telcos by getting their customer's money first, they are also good at hiding call charges. Of course, no-one at Ofcom has twigged onto this one because they won't be using PAYG!

Pricing information is another area. FleXtel seem to put in good responses to "Way forward" and the Personal Number one that criticise Ofcom for not enforcing price transparency.

The whole industry seems to be built on weak regulation. The fact that most are unaware seems to make it OK, to those telcos who are taking advantage, at least.

Has anyone noticed Ofcom's latest piece of twaddle [here], I can't see one mention of better pricing information as suggested by Dave, just loads more ineffective guidelines without teeth.

These guys are on upto £400K per year and burn over £100M a year! [here] What a waste of taxpayers money! Shocked

Back to top

« Last Edit: Feb 12^th, 2006 at 10:02pm by DonQuixote »

IP Logged

NonGeographicalMan

Ex Member

Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #343 - Feb 12^th, 2006 at 10:16pm

DonQuixote wrote on Feb 12^th, 2006 at 10:00pm:

Has anyone noticed Ofcom's latest piece of twaddle [here], I can't see one mention of better pricing information as suggested by Dave, just loads more ineffective guidelines without teeth.

These guys are on up to £400K per year and burn over £100M a year!

Yes I was aware of the publication of Ofcom's atest exercise in wanting to appear to be seen to do something whilst changing nothing at all, as notification of it arrived in the latter part of last week via one of their endless Update emails.

I was stirring myself to find the strength to read it but fearing the worst as to what it might contain.

I shall be responding but as I notice most of you did not respond to Ofcom's latest important consultation suggesting no need to ensure accurate billing of voip phone calls or broadband charges I fear that many other members of this forum will find themselves unable to summon up the strength.

What I can't figure out is the endless New Labour steamroller for more and more deregulation in telecoms and broadcasting whilst everywhere else (ID Cards, endless new camera related Motoring Offences, 101 different forms of vetting of those working with children in any way) New Labour favours more and more totally exessive and unnecessary extra regulation.

I can only find one possible explanation of this logical inconsistency in New Labour's strategy in this area and that one explanation centres around the worlds "Rupert Murdoch" and "The Sun" newspaper. It appears that keeping Mr Murdoch happy is more important than keeping filthy big business properly under control. And Mr Stephen Carter is content to do whatever may pay him the biggest salary and lead on to another even bigger, better and more well paid government job - or perhaps even to a seat in the House of Lords. Shocked

Back to top

IP Logged

NonGeographicalMan

Ex Member

Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #344 - Feb 13^th, 2006 at 11:22am

Please use the below link to visit the new thread I have just started on the published Responses to the Ofcom Metering & Billing Consultation. The response from Citizens Advice makes for especially interesting reading in condemning Ofcom's usual quite pathetic attempts to claim that the telecoms industry can be trusted to totally regulate itself:-

www.saynoto0870.com/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.cgi?num=1139829571/0

Back to top

« Last Edit: Feb 13^th, 2006 at 11:24am by N/A »

IP Logged