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ASA Adjudication against Dell & Virgin (Read 13,510 times)
bbb_uk
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ASA Adjudication against Dell & Virgin
Oct 11th, 2005 at 5:36pm  
Last week I submitted two complaints to the ASA for TV advertisements from both Dell and Virgin that advertised a contact number (0870 & 0871 respectively) but did not state the cost of the calls.  I included the two links on the ASA's website that state that these calls can no longer remain silent.

Here is their reply:-
Quote:
RE: Your complaint about Dell Ideal Pc and Virgin

We’ve investigated the points you raised but don’t think there are sufficient grounds for ASA intervention.

The CAP news article you refer to is entitled ‘Stop the Call Confusion’.  It advises that advertisements which feature 084 and 087 numbers should include call cost information.  But this specifically relates to advertisements in non-broadcast media and not television.

The ASA Broadcast Council judged that in the absence of a regulatory obligation to do so, it would be disproportionate to require broadcast media, radio in particular, to include call costs to 08 numbers.  Both Councils are mindful of Ofcom’s continuing consultation on changes to the present Number Translation Service (NTS) regime.  (The closing date for responses to Ofcom’s consultation is 6 December).  It is likely that the outcome of this consultation will harmonise CAP (non-broadcast) and BCAP’s (broadcast) policy in regard to the advertising of 0845, 0844, 0870 and 0871 numbers.
Basically, the guidelines on call charges are only applicable to non-broadcast advertisements.

Which I believe completely narrows down making complaints against them.  Therefore it has to be an advert in a paper, magazine, or a pop-up advert on the web.  All other media - TV, radio, websites, etc are excluded.

I can't believe they've come out with that.  What difference does it make if the advert is on paper or on TV.  More people watch TV so it's affects more people on TV than an advert in a paper or something.

I believe this should be brought up with OfCOM.
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NonGeographicalMan
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Re: ASA Adjudication against Dell & Virgin
Reply #1 - Oct 11th, 2005 at 5:48pm  
Quote:
I believe this should be brought up with OfCOM.


I'm sure Mr Stephen Carter at Ofcom may be able to fit in signing a letter giving you the polite brush off between his power lunch and power afternoon meetings with his chums in the television and broadcasting industries.

I wouldn't bother writing to Mr Kip Meek, the invisible man of Ofcom, who never ever replies to or an acknowledge an email about Ofcom Policy (which I strangely find to be the subject matter of practically all my communications with the said organisation).

Of course you could try pointing out that their main remit is on the Citizen and Consumer's behalf.  But then some of us have already tried and failed going down that route..........................................
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Re: ASA Adjudication against Dell & Virgin
Reply #2 - Oct 11th, 2005 at 5:51pm  
But the vast majority of Dell's advertising is on paper (through the letter box) and on the web, where you are suddenly bombarded with pop-ups, where one is usually Dell's.

On none of these media do they state the cost of 0870.  I bought a laptop from them 2 weeks ago and all their sales reps were under the impression that 0870 was a freephone, and when I challenged that, I was connected to a supervisor, who then told me that it was in fact a local rate number.  I know it isn't their fault as they are just the reps in India and the real crooks are here in this country, but it goes to show how they are playing on people's apathy.

Couldn't a complaint be made to the ASA about their brochures and website?  All they need to do is go to www.dell.co.uk and see the 0870 at the top right with no explanation, or click Contact Us and see an entire list where there is no cost of calls explained.
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Re: ASA Adjudication against Dell & Virgin
Reply #3 - Oct 11th, 2005 at 6:03pm  
Quote:
Here is their reply:-
Basically, the guidelines on call charges are only applicable to non-broadcast advertisements.

Which I believe completely narrows down making complaints against them.  Therefore it has to be an advert in a paper, magazine, or a pop-up advert on the web.  All other media - TV, radio, websites, etc are excluded.

I can't believe they've come out with that.  
This, whilst disappointing, is wholly expected. In common with seemingly all British regulatory authorities, it would rather sit on its own fat and lethargic corporate backside than offer any form of help or protection to the customer. By making the above assertion, it can weasel out of doing anything productive. Now where have I heard these sentiments before in a regulator?!
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NonGeographicalMan
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Re: ASA Adjudication against Dell & Virgin
Reply #4 - Oct 11th, 2005 at 6:09pm  
Quote:
In common with seemingly all British regulatory authorities, it would rather sit on its own fat and lethargic corporate backside than offer any form of help or protection to the customer. By making the above assertion, it can weasel out of doing anything productive. Now where have I heard these sentiments before in a regulator?!


Office of the Information Commissioner perhaps or Otelo or most notorious of all Ofcom.

One of the standard tricks is to pretend that yours is the only letter of complaint they have received on the topic so they will use their discretionary power to just keep a watching brief.

Actually you do the ASA something of a disservice as they are considerably more energetic and prone to stopping companies doing things than any of the above mentioned outfits.  At least the board of the ASA is not packed out from stem to stern with industry cronies like Ofcom is.
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bbb_uk
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Re: ASA Adjudication against Dell & Virgin
Reply #5 - Oct 11th, 2005 at 6:16pm  
Quote:
...Couldn't a complaint be made to the ASA about their brochures and website?  All they need to do is go to www.dell.co.uk and see the 0870 at the top right with no explanation, or click Contact Us and see an entire list where there is no cost of calls explained.
Their website isn't covered under the ASA remit so its useless complaining about that.  If I had a brochure then yes I could make a complaint about that but I don't.  If you have a brochure from Dell you could complain?  I can post here my original complaint which you could simply send off via their website.
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« Last Edit: Oct 11th, 2005 at 6:32pm by bbb_uk »  
 
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bbb_uk
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Re: ASA Adjudication against Dell & Virgin
Reply #6 - Oct 11th, 2005 at 6:32pm  
I haven't read the consultation document (onto page 20) as yet and I realise this isn't the thread for it but but one piece of information I found on it that is related to this thread is:-

On page 176 of the .pdf, I quote the following from it:-
Quote:
A8.7  Ofcom also agrees that it is not acceptable to be silent on price.  Our research confirms that most have little idea of the price of these calls and so providing an indication which, in most cases, will be fairly accurate is better than leaving customers in the dark about call prices.
Not that this makes much difference because it's just Ofcon talk and they haven't made any changes in regulations for this to be enforced though.
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« Last Edit: Oct 11th, 2005 at 6:33pm by bbb_uk »  
 
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NonGeographicalMan
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Re: ASA Adjudication against Dell & Virgin
Reply #7 - Oct 11th, 2005 at 6:45pm  
Quote:
On page 176 of the .pdf, I quote the following from it:-
Not that this makes much difference because it's just Ofcon talk and they haven't made any changes in regulations for this to be enforced though.


Talk is Cheap but action will seemingly be delayed until hell freezes over on this matter by the weak and eternally indecisive OfCon.  More disgusting is that their press release launching the consultation document was cynically manipulated to make it sound like they were immediately taking action over 0870 instead of in one to two years time.

Even Mr John Strutt, General Manager of BT Pricing Policy & Design, told me that the uncertainty created by Ofcom's failure to act decisively on this issue is bad for everyone in the whole telecoms industry.
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« Last Edit: Oct 12th, 2005 at 7:28am by N/A »  
 
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bbb_uk
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Re: ASA Adjudication against Dell & Virgin
Reply #8 - Oct 12th, 2005 at 4:45am  
At least we now know why we are still seeing loads of TV adverts all of which don't mention the cost of their NGN.

Simple - they aren't bound by ASA guidelines so they're not told they have to mention the cost.

I'm still gobsmacked over the fact that the ASA guidelines on not remaining silent on call costs and not  describing them as 'local' or 'national' is only applicable for non-broadcast adverts BUT for broadcast (TV & radio) adverts they can do what they like.

Where is the logic in that?
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NonGeographicalMan
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Re: ASA Adjudication against Dell & Virgin
Reply #9 - Oct 12th, 2005 at 7:30am  
Quote:
I'm still gobsmacked over the fact that the ASA guidelines on not remaining silent on call costs and not  describing them as 'local' or 'national' is only applicable for non-broadcast adverts BUT for broadcast (TV & radio) adverts they can do what they like.


Some broadcast advertisers still seem to be complying with these new rules though because they appear to regard it as Best Practice.  But perhaps even they will stop when they realise the scammers are still getting away without doing this.
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Re: ASA Adjudication against Dell & Virgin
Reply #10 - Oct 12th, 2005 at 8:05am  
Quote:
Some broadcast advertisers still seem to be complying with these new rules though because they appear to regard it as Best Practice...
I suspect it could be because they do not realise the guidelines don't apply to them.  I managed to get the Britannia Club to describe their 0871 number as 10ppm by including links to ASA/CAP's decision.  Obviously their website doesn't come under ASA/CAP remit so they did not have to describe their number as 10ppm.
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Re: ASA Adjudication against Dell & Virgin
Reply #11 - Oct 12th, 2005 at 9:51am  
Quote:
At least we now know why we are still seeing loads of TV adverts all of which don't mention the cost of their NGN.

Surely all this pricing of telephone calls should come under the same body/umbrella? That way, if we see or hear some incorrect information (whether that be on a company's website, in a newspaper ad etc) there is one set of rules which they must adhere to.

This should of course ultimately come from Ofcom... say no more then.  Roll Eyes
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NonGeographicalMan
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Re: ASA Adjudication against Dell & Virgin
Reply #12 - Oct 12th, 2005 at 10:10am  
Quote:
Surely all this pricing of telephone calls should come under the same body/umbrella? That way, if we see or hear some incorrect information (whether that be on a company's website, in a newspaper ad etc) there is one set of rules which they must adhere to.

This should of course ultimately come from Ofcom... say no more then.  Roll Eyes


The argument of the ASA is obviously that having to state the call cost per minute on a radio ad has a much higher cost as it cuts into part of the advert time, rather than merely being some small print at the bottom of the page.

I don't see the argument that television doesn't need to comply as they could easily put the call cost in text on the screen without losing time on the main advert.

In fact I have no sympathy with letting them off the requirement to disclose the call price in either case because they could easily avoid being hit with it by simply using a normal geographic phone number.

I still think they ASA are a more useful outfit than Ofcom though who still haven't passed rules that stop 0845 being called Lo-Cal or Local Rate and 0870 being called NationalCall or National Rate.
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Re: ASA Adjudication against Dell & Virgin
Reply #13 - Oct 12th, 2005 at 10:42am  
Quote:
..I don't see the argument that television doesn't need to comply as they could easily put the call cost in text on the screen without losing time on the main advert..
I agree.  They have no problems mentioning "freephone" when they use an 0800 number so why claim TV adverts are exempt from ASA guidelines when mentioning NGNs?
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Re: ASA Adjudication against Dell & Virgin
Reply #14 - Oct 13th, 2005 at 10:50pm  
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This, whilst disappointing, is wholly expected. In common with seemingly all British regulatory authorities, it would rather sit on its own fat and lethargic corporate backside than offer any form of help or protection to the customer. By making the above assertion, it can weasel out of doing anything productive. Now where have I heard these sentiments before in a regulator?!


Well, given that TV and Radio after covered by legislation and the ASA keep telling us that they are a non-statuatory body I don't see what they can do? I think you are being unreasonable tbh. And websites, how would you go about regulating them? The police can't do it, so how would we expect an organisation like the ASA to do regulate it???
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