This response strikes me as being like a major drug trafficking company complaining how all the valuable employment and economic activity they supply will be lost if there is a major clamp down by the Police.

Their argument is that we employ people even though its a scam so now you can't close us down in case people lose worthless jobs of which the only purpose is to scam telecoms consumers for unjustified charges.  If only the stupid OFTEL and Ofcom had never let the whole scam industries grow in the first place.

In all their response Elite Telecom never seem to consider that companies might just go back to 01/02 numbers and that everybody apart from employees of his business would then be far better off!

Dave wrote on Dec 12^th, 2005 at 2:38pm:
It really is staggering. What is worrying is whether this sob-story will have any impact upon the regulator in reaching its conclusion on NTS. As I have said for a long time, there is little middle ground here - the public hates these numbers, and companies like Elite rely on them to make, IMO, ill-gotten gains. Who will the regulator favor?

Quote:
It needs someone at Ofcom to admit that NTS is a failure, admit that they got it wrong, and put into place a sustainable system for the future. I would go further. Because the historical 35 mile or whatever it was definition of 'local' is no longer relevant, a full overview of area codes is needed with a target of fixed-length dialling and fixed-lingth area codes. The current NTNP is a shambles, full of anomolies. It needs to be redesigned. I am sure that there must be some Ofcom staff who are technically, morally and managerially competent that could undertake such a task.

Dave wrote on Dec 12^th, 2005 at 3:08pm:


There seems to be a third obvious option you have missed Dave and which is the one most members on this site would settle for.

Namely allow these people to sell as many NTS/PRS services as they want (there is no difference between NTS and PRS other than the price and the anomalous differences in disclosure rules) provided they are on prefixes readily identifiable as premium rate and revenue sharing, provided there are compulsory call price announcements and provided any monopoly service (whether government or private sector) has to offer a geographic alternative that is equally prominently displayed.

The whole con is based on most members of the public thinking 084 and 087 are ordinary national and local rate calls.  As soon as the sheep's clothing is removed from the wolf the public will recoil in horror and the NTS scam industry will die a slow, natural, lingering death.

I think Ofcom may go for leaving some of the NTS revenue share services on 08 unfortunately but will be forced to add ICSTIS regulation for 0844 and compuslory call price announcements for 0844 and 0871.  I also think they will have to end 0845 revenue share at the same time as 0870 and will be forced to abolish the 0870 loophole of higher prices being allowed with call price announcements.  0845 ISPs will be told to migrate their customers elsewhere I suspect now that Ofcom has realised they will be in  even more hot water for trying to placate the nosy lobby from the ISPs.

As for anyone at Ofcom and/or especially OFTEL having a strong moral leaning regrettably I fear not or we wouldn't be where we are now.  It seems to me that high levels of pay and successful progression of their well paid careers are the key drivers for most senior Ofcom staff.

Dave wrote on Dec 12^th, 2005 at 3:43pm:


Well I will be interested to see that day ever come for 0845 and 0870 and interested to see Ofcom stop even BT from continuing to cynically peddle the lie on all its 100 million+ phone bills a year that 0845 is Lo-Call and that 0870 is National Rate.

In the last three days I have had several people at HP (Hewlett Packard) customer services all confidently assure me that their 0870 number is either "local rate" or "national rate" (depending on the employee) and a rather public school educated sounding lady in Debenhams public relations department assure me that 0844 was Local Rate and that was why they used it.

So in my opinion the 084/7 Local/National Rate has been so deliberately peddled for so long to every dullard at the companies that run them that it can only be unpicked by making all the lower priced 084/7 revenue sharers move to 09 or 06 and the non revenue share 084/7 to 03.  Such a change will then make the public realise something has changed (especially if accompanied by proper publicity about what 06 and 03 and the whole NTNP is about.  Are you old enough for instance to remember the "LSD shops have LSD prices, LSD shops give LSD change and "Decimal Shops have Decimal Prices, Decimal Shops give Decimal Change" little ditties that constantly appeared on television in the months before decimal switchover (and I was only 8 or 9 then but remember it).

The only reason that no one understands the NTNP or the call charges associcated with it is because it is not currently logical and OFTEL/Ofcom have never undertaken any publicity for it.

If 08 Freephone, 0845 and 0870 geographic rate and 0844 and 0871 revenue share numbers are all allowed to stay together on an illogical 08 it will continue not to be understood and the 0844ers and 0871ers will be able to rely on past urban myths that all 084 and 087 numbers are charge as Local and National Rate calls.

Seems obvious to me and I feel disappointed Dave that you seem to be trying to field Ofcom with excuses for leaving the current disgracefully confusing arrangements in place.

Sure all this will cost the companies who run these numbers some money but that will be some small redress for all the money it has cost us the consumers who have had to dial them over the last few years.

Locked-out wrote on Dec 12^th, 2005 at 6:23pm:


Who are you Locked Out?  You sound very familiar to me.  Also why would the forum management lock anyone out?  When they threatened to lock me out I told them I would set up my own anti 0870 forum if that happened after which I heard no more on the matter.

You need to remember that politics is the art of the possible.  And unfortunately in my view expecting 1p to 10p per minute NTS to move to 09 is not possible as this implies ICSTIS regulation and the ICSTIS levy which seem to be a sledge hammer to crack a nut at this level of revenue share (at least that's how Ofcom sees it).

What is needed is to get 084 and 087 off 08 to return 08 clearly to Freephone.  Ofcom are only likely to go for this if they can be persuaded that it is lack of public awareness of pricing that is the key problem on NTS/PRS.  Thus using 06 for low priced NTS with price disclosure and call price announcements but without ICSTIS regulation overcomes the Ofcom objection about the heavy handedness and then when 0845 and 0870 move to 0345 and 0370 the public understand that there is a class of non geographics that now costs the same as 01 and 02 and are in inclusive calling plans.  This makes them more unwilling to use the 06 premium NTS numbers which they now realise cost extra and are outside inclusive calling plans.

This whole scam relies on 084/087 being thought of by 95%+ of the public as local and national rate when they are not and the number class being overlapped with Freephone.  Dogmatic isistence on all revenue share being on 09 will lead to Ofcom saying that this will damage the business of low cost NTS carriers by negative connection with sex chat lines etc.  You can argue Ofcom is wrong but I know Ofcom won't agree to put the 1p to 10p stuf with the other 09 numbers.

Anyhow I am sorry to hear about your forum lockout.  I hope that this soon gets rescinded.

Locked-out wrote on Dec 12^th, 2005 at 11:15pm:

That is my impression too. Perhaps Ofcom categorically stated that 084/087 numbers would not be moved to 09, so another solution would have to be developed.

It would be nice to have 089, although that would bring back into being 0891 and 0898, which might not be such a good idea.

Yes, kk, this is the only sensible and sustainable position.  Any (and ALL) Premium rates must be under 09 - if further numbers start to be used the waters will be muddied even more and consumers will be at a disadvantage once again.
But then, this is Ofcom we are dealing with, 'mud makes money for their salaries ( and their commercial cronies!)'.