SAYNOTO0870.COM - Ofcom consultation

NonGeographicalMan

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Re: URGENT RESPONSE REQD Ofcom and 070/Patientline
Reply #60 - Nov 5^th, 2005 at 10:22am

Quote:

And I think that all such revenue sharing, even if "notional revenue sharing" as here, should be behind 09 and subject to control. That is what 09 was for in the new numbering plan.
That and protection for the citizen-consumer.
Now off to look for a flying-pig smiley.

I can't see what is notional about the revenue share Tanllan?

The calls go to Patientline who get the revenue share and Patientline then pass them to hospital patients who don't get the revenue share.

But this is no different from the arrangement between Cable & Wireless and Capita & the BBC where Cable & Wireless get the revenue share and in return seem to provide Capita and the BBC with phone line rental and also outgoing calls at very reduced or possibly zero rates. In the same way it will be argued that the hospital patient doesn't have to pay phone line rental so the caller is in fact passing a revenue share on to the patient for the free phone line that sits at his bedside which he does not have to rent.

Since Patientline customers have to pay a £3 a day or more charge for the television the answer seems to be to make it £4 a day but allow the incoming calls to be on an 0844 number at 1p at all times or even a geographic phone number instead. I am sure that most hospital patients would rather pay extra themselves for the phone facility rather than have their relatives put off calling them due to the exorbitant call cost.

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bbb_uk

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Re: URGENT RESPONSE REQD Ofcom and 070/Patientline
Reply #61 - Nov 5^th, 2005 at 12:40pm

Quote:

...this is no different from the arrangement between Cable & Wireless and Capita & the BBC where Cable & Wireless get the revenue share and in return seem to provide Capita and the BBC with phone line rental and also outgoing calls at very reduced or possibly zero rates. In the same way it will be argued that the hospital patient doesn't have to pay phone line rental so the caller is in fact passing a revenue share on to the patient for the free phone line that sits at his bedside which he does not have to rent.

The difference is that Capita use a 8ppm line and Patientline use a 50ppm.

Quote:

Since Patientline customers have to pay a £3 a day or more charge for the television the answer seems to be to make it £4 a day but allow the incoming calls to be on an 0844 number at 1p at all times or even a geographic phone number instead. I am sure that most hospital patients would rather pay extra themselves for the phone facility rather than have their relatives put off calling them due to the exorbitant call cost.

I've visited many times to hospitals and they moan about the cost of £3.50 now for very, very few channels they get for it. I don't think they would like an increase to subsidise the incoming calls. Besides how much increase would it need to be so that the incoming calls are reduced from 50ppm to a geographical rate? I suspect it would cost well in excess of an extra £2 for TV to so that calls could be charged at geographical rate and patientline don't lose any revenue?

A compromise needs to be made and that's where I think a reduction from 50ppm to 10ppm although not idea is better than nothing. TV could stay the same and they are likely to get more people ringing and spending longer on the line than than at 50ppm.

I still firmly believe that they've used a 07 number instead of an 09x number to avoid paying and coming under the tight guidelines of the ICSTIS.

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NonGeographicalMan

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Re: URGENT RESPONSE REQD Ofcom and 070/Patientline
Reply #62 - Nov 5^th, 2005 at 12:55pm

Quote:

I still firmly believe that they've used a 07 number instead of an 09x number to avoid paying and coming under the tight guidelines of the ICSTIS.

Also because 07 numbers aren't perceived to be as expensive as 09 numbers as well.

The thing is if these Patientline terminals bring in £1000 a year in rental charges for the tv then how come Patientline aren't already coining it from that and how come they need to charge any more than 0845 for the phone access? Is it because Mr Derek Lewis and co are paying themselves huge dividends?

Thinking about what a Patientline terminal and linked systems involved surely at £3.50 day they would pay back the cost of the equipment in less than a year so I really can't see how anything more than 0845 for the incoming calls can be justified, and I personally think they should actually be DDI 01 or 02 numbers. A small extra charge for outgoing calls above BT rates might be justified.

Or are the NHS charging Patientline a huge annual fee for the exclusive right to operate these services in hospital so is there a further hidden tax to pay for the NHS out of patient's pockets? Is that why Patientline need to charge so much a day and so much for phone calls to make a profit, as I can't see the equipment they have installed is that expensive and should be easily covered in year or less by the daily tv charge alone.

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Tanllan Supreme Member Offline Posts: 797 Gender:	Re: URGENT RESPONSE REQD Ofcom and 070/Patientline Reply #63 - Nov 5^th, 2005 at 2:12pm Hi NGM The "notional" aspect was to differentiate between actual money being handed over, as with 09X and now 084 and 087, and a service being given - as with the beeb and so on.
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NonGeographicalMan Ex Member	Responding to Ofcom - Made Difficult by Design? Reply #64 - Nov 5^th, 2005 at 2:33pm Some of you participating in this thread might want to contribute to this other new thread on the user friendliness of the Ofcom Consultation Process which I have just started here:- Click Here - for Responding to Ofcom Made Difficult by Design Thread
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Tanllan Supreme Member Offline Posts: 797 Gender:	Re: URGENT RESPONSE REQD Ofcom and 070/Patientline Reply #65 - Nov 8^th, 2005 at 9:13am Hi all Today's the closing day. Good Luck with your submissions. Particularly with the very tight time allowed.
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NonGeographicalMan

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Re: URGENT RESPONSE REQD Ofcom and 070/Patientline
Reply #66 - Nov 8^th, 2005 at 9:15am

Just a Message to point out to everyone who participated in this thread that today is the closing day for representations to Ofcom on their 070 number consultation.

Please respond saying:-

1) 070 should not be used for fixed line only telephony as they were intended for totally mobile communication.

2) 070 are simply a way to carry out covert revenue sharing at 50p per minute whilst avoiding being regulatd by ICSTIS

3) By changing the guidlines to include Patientline Ofcom have opened the floodgates to loads of student halls telephone operators saying they have the same rights to charge 50p per minute as long as they allow students to reassign the number to their mobile phone or parents home phone

4) That its is wrong that this 070 PNS issue was not made part of the current 10 week NTS consultation when the issues involved are the same

5) Neither 0844/45/70/71 or 070 numbers with revenue sharing are valid because they do not make it explicit to the caller that part of the call price is being used as a revenue payback to the terminating call operator instead of as a fair payment for the value of services consumed

6) It is outrageous that Ofcom tried to shuffle this consultation through in just two weeks instead of the usual 10 weeks.

Send your thoughts now before the consultation closes to :- ruth.gibson@ofcom.org.uk

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« Last Edit: Nov 8^th, 2005 at 12:18pm by N/A »

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Dave

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Re: URGENT RESPONSE REQD Ofcom and 070/Patientline
Reply #67 - Nov 8^th, 2005 at 2:09pm

Thanks for reminding us about this NGM.

For those who followed what I was saying about the hospital uses contradicting the guidelines, I'm not so sure now. Please feel free to skip the rest of this post if you wish. It is not my intention to make you fall asleep and miss the 5pm deadline!

Quote:

14. However, what all Personal Numbering Services have in common is that it must be the called party who decides which destination the 070 number is routed to. Additionally, if the service that is being offered is the facility to be reached at any chosen destination then the End-User must be in charge of changing as well as allocating the destination number. ...

Ofcom employ a team of very good wordsmiths!

I draw your attention to the "Additionally, if" in bold. Therefore, if it's not a service that allows the facility to be reached at any destination, then the End-User doesn't have to be able to be in charge of changing as well as allocating the destination number.

So what we have with the first sentence is "...it must be the called party who decides which destination the 070 number is routed to." The destination in this case is not the number, but where it comes out. Thus, the patient in their hospital bed must have decided where their 070 number (for the duration of their stay) goes!

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« Last Edit: Nov 8^th, 2005 at 2:11pm by Dave »

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Dave Global Moderator Offline Posts: 9,902 Yorkshire Gender:	Re: URGENT RESPONSE REQD Ofcom and 070/Patientline Reply #68 - Nov 8^th, 2005 at 2:36pm Quote: Is there a 5pm deadline Dave? Yes there is. See Annex 1 on page 6.
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NonGeographicalMan Ex Member	Re: URGENT RESPONSE REQD Ofcom and 070/Patientline Reply #69 - Nov 8^th, 2005 at 2:59pm Quote: Yes there is. See Annex 1 on page 6. Strange. I don't think there is for the current NTS consultation is there? Looks like my response just got more bullet pointish then.
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Dave Global Moderator Offline Posts: 9,902 Yorkshire Gender:	Re: URGENT RESPONSE REQD Ofcom and 070/Patientline Reply #70 - Nov 8^th, 2005 at 3:05pm Quote: Strange. I don't think there is for the current NTS consultation is there? Yes, they all have 5pm deadlines. In the section entitled "Responding to this consultation" within each consultation it is in bold.
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NonGeographicalMan

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Re: URGENT RESPONSE REQD Ofcom and 070/Patientline
Reply #71 - Nov 8^th, 2005 at 3:36pm

Quote:

Yes, they all have 5pm deadlines. In the section entitled "Responding to this consultation" within each consultation it is in bold.

But isn't this really based on a pre email world when the front doors of their offices would close at 5pm and there would be no way to deliver it on a verified time basis after that moment.

I can't see the need these days with email running 24/7.

Anyhow back to finishining my response.

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bbb_uk

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Re: URGENT RESPONSE REQD Ofcom and 070/Patientline
Reply #72 - Nov 8^th, 2005 at 3:37pm

Quote:

So what we have with the first sentence is "...it must be the called party who decides which destination the 070 number is routed to." The destination in this case is not the number, but where it comes out. Thus, the patient in their hospital bed must have decided where their 070 number (for the duration of their stay) goes!

But they still are not in control of it with regards to being able to then have that number divert to their landline or mobile or wherever they choose.

They are allocated a number for the bedside only and if this number cannot be used by the end party other than when in hospital then they, by my definition, are not in control of that number.

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Dave

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Re: URGENT RESPONSE REQD Ofcom and 070/Patientline
Reply #73 - Nov 8^th, 2005 at 3:40pm

Quote:

But they still are not in control of it with regards to being able to then have that number divert to their landline or mobile or wherever they choose.

But they are allocated it for the duration of their stay. So they wouldn't need it to be pointed to their landline. However, as I will be putting in my response, they may want it forwarded to their mobile, if they went outside, for example.

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bbb_uk

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Re: URGENT RESPONSE REQD Ofcom and 070/Patientline
Reply #74 - Nov 8^th, 2005 at 3:46pm

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But they are allocated it for the duration of their stay. So they wouldn't need it to be pointed to their landline.

True. You could say they are only partly in control of it - specifically only whilst in hospital.

I've already sent mine off the other day but you may want to mention that do they then get this exact same number back on their next visit or is their 07 number used by another patient after so long?

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