SAYNOTO0870.COM - Ofcom Consults on 101 Police Number & Call Costs

NonGeographicalMan

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Re: Ofcom Consults on 101 Police Number & Call
Reply #30 - Nov 3^rd, 2005 at 12:14pm

Quote:

It stressed that pressure on the police should ease when the government introduces a national non emergency number which people can ring instead of 999 to report less urgent concerns, such as noisy neighbours.

They already won't handle a non emergency call on 999 and make you call the Police 0845 number anyway.

So what difference will 101 make.

The problem with the Police is that they treat the public like inmates rather than like customers.

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NoNumberTrans

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Re: Ofcom Consults on 101 Police Number & Call
Reply #31 - Nov 3^rd, 2005 at 4:01pm

Having had a glance through most of the document, it does seem that they they will use the "first wave" (pilot scheme in old english) to test out the call volume etc and then use the data to see whether calls can then be free when the scheme is rolled out nationally.

Personally I dont have a problem with being charged 10p/call for the service, but it must be "deductable" as part of a call plan if one is in place. I confess I don't know whether Telco's billing systems can cope with such "anomalies" so if not, I would revert to forcing a 3p/min "geographic number equivalent" charge, that can be in a call plan.

As to the number chosen, there are interesting arguments for the 101 option, one of which says of the increased chance of a mis-dial if you have repeated numbers in a dialling sequence, hence their avoidance of 111 (which I think is a good option, easy to remember). I think that research relates to longer numbers with others in the sequence though, eg 01539 993 101 ,where you can quite easily not remember whether you have dialled 2 or 3 9's especially if you sometimes dial the number without the area code in your home area. Wonder if there are lots of mis-dials on 999 then...

Have put my thoughts in to the Ofcom consultation.

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« Last Edit: Nov 3^rd, 2005 at 4:03pm by NoNumberTrans »

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Dave

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Re: Ofcom Consults on 101 Police Number & Call
Reply #32 - Nov 3^rd, 2005 at 4:32pm

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Personally I dont have a problem with being charged 10p/call for the service, but it must be "deductable" as part of a call plan if one is in place. ...

But that's a contradiction!

What do you mean "deductable"? If it's 10p/call (or whatever fixed rate/price), where is that money going? If it's another revenue sharing number where some of the cost is kept by the telecoms provider you are calling from (to cover the cost of the call) and the rest (the majority) goes to the terminating telco/party, then it's a premium rate number, pure and simple!!!

I doubt that it would be 10p/call and all that 10p goes to the telco you are calling from. Why would the government enforce a rule that says that a certain number must be charged at such and such pence? It's never occurred to them before to do this. They just pass the buck about (for example) the high cost of 0870 numbers; "it's the telcos fault"!!

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« Last Edit: Nov 3^rd, 2005 at 4:33pm by Dave »

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NonGeographicalMan

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Re: Ofcom Consults on 101 Police Number & Call
Reply #33 - Nov 3^rd, 2005 at 4:44pm

Quote:

Having had a glance through most of the document, it does seem that they they will use the "first wave" (pilot scheme in old english) to test out the call volume etc and then use the data to see whether calls can then be free when the scheme is rolled out nationally.

Surely anyone in their right mind would at least make the new number free during the pilot stage, so as to incentivise people to use it and tell their friends about it.

If they make it costly to use then people are going to keep trying to use geographic phone numbers for as long as possible, where available.

As I have said before if they had made the cost of the 101 call 5p (equivalent to the BT minimum connection fee) then they might just have got away with it since it would be cheaper than using the current 0845 ripoff numbers.

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NoNumberTrans

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Re: Ofcom Consults on 101 Police Number & Call
Reply #34 - Nov 3^rd, 2005 at 5:02pm

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But that's a contradiction!

What do you mean "deductable"? If it's 10p/call (or whatever fixed rate/price), where is that money going? If it's another revenue sharing number where some of the cost is kept by the telecoms provider you are calling from (to cover the cost of the call) and the rest (the majority) goes to the terminating telco/party, then it's a premium rate number, pure and simple!!!

Do you (other members of this site) object to paying for any phone calls? This may sound like a frivolous question because the way you sometimes talk, it seems that way.

I have to say I dont see the contradiction you refer to, I dont actually care that terminating parties may receive revenue, as long as that and the call charge are clear at the outset.

On the "deductable from callplans point" I meant exactly as I said, i.e. if I have a BT talk plan, I would expect calls to SNEN (at 10p/call) to be part of that plan and if not possible, then I would prefer the 3p/min option which must be able to be part of a plan too (i.e. a geographic equivalent).

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« Last Edit: Nov 3^rd, 2005 at 5:08pm by NoNumberTrans »

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Dave

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Re: Ofcom Consults on 101 Police Number & Call
Reply #35 - Nov 3^rd, 2005 at 5:24pm

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Do you (other members of this site) object to paying for any phone calls? This may sound like a frivolous question because the way you sometimes talk, it seems that way.

I do not object to paying for telephone calls. I have never said that. I would like to pay the going rate for a telephone call, as determined by a free, open market. 0870/0845 numbers stiffle competition as providers cannot lower their rates because of what it costs them to connect to these numbers.

Quote:

I have to say I dont see the contradiction you refer to, I dont actually care that terminating parties may receive revenue, as long as that and the call charge are clear at the outset.

So you wouldn't object to an 090 number, so long as the call cost is displayed?

Quote:

On the "deductable from callplans point" I meant exactly as I said, i.e. if I have a BT talk plan, I would expect calls to SNEN (at 10p/call) to be part of that plan and if not possible, then I would prefer the 3p/min option which must be able to be part of a plan too (i.e. a geographic equivalent).

But you can't have your cake and eat it!

So where geographical calls are chargable, you suggest that the 101 number be 10p/call, but when on an inclusive package it's free. And who pays for this? You say you "dont actually care that the terminating parties receive revenue", but if they do, why should your telco pay that revenue so that you can call that number for free?

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NonGeographicalMan

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Re: Ofcom Consults on 101 Police Number & Call
Reply #36 - Nov 3^rd, 2005 at 5:32pm

I believe this 101 number should be charged at standard geographic uk rates.

So 3p per minute in the day time on BT and 3p per call with 1899

As its a non emergency police number I don't expect it to be free but I don't expect it to cost any more than my calls to 01 and 02 numbers. For anyone who paid for inclusive calls to geographic numbers I would expect 101 to be included in this calling allowance.

Simple really.

We just object to this being a specilal number with its own charge and no competition between call providers to give the best deal being possible.

You call yourself NoNumberTrans. But 101 is a NumberTrans! Shocked

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Dave Global Moderator Offline Posts: 9,902 Yorkshire Gender:	Re: Ofcom Consults on 101 Police Number & Call Reply #37 - Nov 3^rd, 2005 at 5:36pm Thanks NGM, that the "Plain English" version (rather than Ofcom-speak) of what I'm saying!
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bbb_uk

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Re: Ofcom Consults on 101 Police Number & Call
Reply #38 - Nov 3^rd, 2005 at 8:07pm

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I believe this 101 number should be charged at standard geographic uk rates.

So 3p per minute in the day time on BT and 3p per call with 1899

I don't believe they should - well not exclusively anyhow.

Not everyone is on Call18866/1899 so paying 3p/min can be really expensive especially if they are in a queue and I can imagine there will be queues. If anyone was to call this 101 charged at geographical rates they would pay over the odds from mobiles, etc

In my opinion the 101 can stay a fixed rate - 5p per call - is reasonable in my opinion as you point out its same rate as minimum call charge. Anything above that I would class a premium rate call.

There should also be a geographical number to ring for those ringing from abroad, etc or those, like us, that use Call18866/1899, etc.

This has the advantage of benefiting everyone. Those on inclusive plans or Call18866/1899, etc can use the geographical. Those that aren't on inclusive plans or Call18866/1899, can use the 101.

It's highly doubtful that calls to 101 will be included in any package.

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NonGeographicalMan

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Re: Ofcom Consults on 101 Police Number & Call
Reply #39 - Nov 3^rd, 2005 at 8:23pm

I could live with a standard 5p fixed charge for those calling 101 on all networks (including mobile phones and payphones for whom it would generally be a real boon compared to the usual mobile call charges and especially 0845 charges) so long as a geographic number for reaching every individual uk police force call centre is also clearly provided on their websites. Then those who have inclusive call packages, are overseas or use 1899 etc can call on the geographic number while those who just take the line of least resistance can call 101 and only be charged 5p.

I hope we all make such a suggestion in our responses.

We can say more than 5p is unfair because the BT Option 1 charge off peak for 01 and 02 is only 5.5p for 60 minutes and is 5p for 60 minutes with many other call providers. So why should a Police non emergency call cost more than calling 01 or 02 with BT?

What do the rest of you think?

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NoNumberTrans

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Re: Ofcom Consults on 101 Police Number & Call
Reply #40 - Nov 3^rd, 2005 at 9:15pm

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So you wouldn't object to an 090 number, so long as the call cost is displayed?

Yes, I wouldn't object to an 090 number provided that it was clear that's what you were calling and the associated rate, though I seriously doubt it would be used in this case.

Quote:

But you can't have your cake and eat it!

So where geographical calls are chargable, you suggest that the 101 number be 10p/call, but when on an inclusive package it's free. And who pays for this? You say you "dont actually care that the terminating parties receive revenue", but if they do, why should your telco pay that revenue so that you can call that number for free?

I think I'm right in saying that most (if not all) call plans exclude fixed price services such as those being proposed for the 101 SNEN service. What I was saying was that if it was possible to include them in call plans then I would be happy with a fixed 10p/call for SNEN. If not, then revert to NGM's suggestion of 3p/m standard geo. rate. And by the way a call is not "free" on a call plan, the Telco will have calculated an allowance for all calls and makes charges accordingly.

As an explanation of my thoughts, most Telco's offer some "non-standard" calls as an inclusive part of their packages, for instance most Orange customers can dial freephone numbers for free. Orange bears the difference between what the terminating Telco pays them to bear the call and what it costs them, I guess reasoning that they will get revenue from the customer in other ways. This is what I was suggesting could be the case with 101. By the way, on the previous price plan I was on with Orange, 0870 numbers were charged as part of your inclusive minutes as if they were standard (geographic) call.

Oh btw, I sometimes think number translations are necessary, we wouldn't have 999 without it.

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NoNumberTrans

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Re: Ofcom Consults on 101 Police Number & Call
Reply #41 - Nov 3^rd, 2005 at 9:22pm

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There should also be a geographical number to ring for those ringing from abroad, etc or those, like us, that use Call18866/1899, etc.

The problem with making a geographic number available is that it would vary from area to area of the country, therefore defeating the point of having a single number valid anywhere in the UK to access the relevant authority. Originally 0870 numbers were accessible from abroad, its only since BT have dropped the basic rental package and call costs have become variable that such access has gone by the wayside.

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NoNumberTrans Newbie Offline Posts: 14 Stockport Gender:	Re: Ofcom Consults on 101 Police Number & Call Reply #42 - Nov 3^rd, 2005 at 9:26pm Quote: ... so long as a geographic number for reaching every individual uk police force call centre is also clearly provided on their websites. The problem is that 101 is designed not just to access police forces but also local authority services, so you would start to get very long list.
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NonGeographicalMan

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Re: Ofcom Consults on 101 Police Number & Call
Reply #43 - Nov 3^rd, 2005 at 9:51pm

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The problem is that 101 is designed not just to access police forces but also local authority services, so you would start to get very long list.

No there would not be a long list of alternative geographic numbers as only one Police force covers my area - Surrey Police. All I ask is that it provides a geographic phone number on its website to call in addition to 101 when this sytem comes in. Ditto there is only one District Council and one County Council covering where I live. All I ask is that they show a geographic phone number to call on their website in addition to 101. However at present neither the Police or the County Council show a geographic number on their website or in the phone book and only the District Council have a geographic number and can be guaranteed to keep that geographic number no matter what, as a result of police that I have had passed.

There is in fact no need for this 101 number at all as:-

(a) PSTN 01/02 numbers will be dead in 10 years time so why bring in this 101 number just as they are dying and only 50 years too late. And what will be the non emergency voip address to call and why isn't that being specified in this consultaion? Shocked

(b) No one has any difficulty whatsoever using conventional geographic numbers to call their police force or local authority other than the minor objection caused by the fact that voice directory enquiries are now chargeable. However if councils can also be accessed via these 101 numbers then I would return to my original position on the matter which is that 101 from any telephone should be charged at that telephone service providers geographic call rates for the plan that the customer is on. So 101 is free if the customer is on an all inclusive calls package or 3p per minute peak and 5.5p per hour off peak on BT Option 1. The key thing is that people shouldl be no worse off calling on a 101 number than calling an 01 or 02 prefixed number and they will in fact be significantly better off compared to 0845 off peak, even on BT Option 1.

101 should just be a handy number translation service that gets you through to the underlying council or Police geographic number without having to remember the actual number itself. But what it shoudl not be is another number translation service that imposes a special different tariiff structure compared to calling the geographical number.

There. In a nutshell that is what will be the gist of my submission to Ofcom. As to have a special rate for all calls to police and local authorities will be a major distortion in competition and call tariffs in the uk telecoms market, just as we are beginning to hopefully stamp this out for 0845 and 0870.

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NonGeographicalMan

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Re: Ofcom Consults on 101 Police Number & Call
Reply #44 - Nov 3^rd, 2005 at 9:55pm

Quote:

The problem with making a geographic number available is that it would vary from area to area of the country, therefore defeating the point of having a single number valid anywhere in the UK to access the relevant authority.

Wrong because the 101 number should work anywhere and get you through to the local polcice or local council at your normal geographic call rate with that call provider on that call package. And in just the same way the underlying geographic number that 101 directs to in your area for the Police and the one or more local councils will be available from those bodies and in directory enquires in addition to the 101 number.

I can't see any problem with that can you? The only point of 101 is so that if you are out of area you don't have to have a phone book or call mobile phone directory enquiries at about £1 a minute.

But there is need for the convenience of a simple short code number method of accessing these services having a different telecoms tariff not subject to normal competitive market forces in the telecoms industry.

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